[Deck] Imperial Painter

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

Excited to see the primer, I was at GP Richmond (not playing any legacy side events though) and picked up some stuff for the white splash, just in case I want to play it.

What I'd love to see is a breakdown of when you would want to play MonoR vs RW, and why.

A couple of notes, now that I know the list just replaced Faithless Looting with Enlightened Tutor it makes sense that you've got 3 Goblin Welders in the main. It seems like there could be room to reduce that to two or one, and put something else in that spot main deck, maybe, it also makes sense to run a Great Furnace with 3 Goblin Welders but if you reduce your welders it might make sense to reconsider that slot.

Also since we are talking about R/W tech, any discussion about Spirit of the Labyrinth? Can't be found with Imperial Recruiter, but can be Found with Enlighten Tutor...

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I'm not going below 3 welders since it solves so many issues. Counters, discard, decay, bolt, liliana, chalice etc. I want to draw one naturally so three it is. The first will probably die so no biggie. It's also a tempo play since welder gets respect and the opponent kills it right away. If it lives then great, I get to protect the combo pieces and bridge.

When asking about painter before the GP, lejay asked about spirit as well. My response to him and others is why? What matchup is it solving that isn't good already?

Sent from my iPadOk great thoughts and ideas guys. About the number of welders, I think the correct number is somewhere between 2-4. You hardly ever want to tutor for him but sometimes that is the only way to get a grindstone. He is a must answer card bc he turns off discard and counters like Jack said. I imagine there is a proper list with 4 welders but I am not sure of the other 56. I have often toyed around with a third either in the main and in the board. If I were to add another welder main to my list I would really want two more artifacts main, which is how Jack's list is built to optimize welder.

About Ajani, it's funny, Jack mentioned him just the other day. He is strong however, I would feel really bad about using your window of a white source to cast him. He doesn't really win the game so much as augment your own game plan. It's for that reason I think he would be a far third behind Koth and Chandra.

About the number of E tutor in the list. I will not lie I stole 3 from Hollywood many years ago. I have toyed with more but never really tested the idea. The basically idea is that you want four copies of any card if you want to draw it every game, 3 if you only want one copy every game at most, and 1 as a tutor able target. I'm no longer sure why you would play two copies of a card unless that is basically all you have room for sort of like my list and SDT. I would love three in a perfect world but I don't have room. So I run 2. But since I've cut to 2 I've toyed with dropping them completely bc you draw them so infrequently when it matters that you forget their utility. I am not sure if the e tutor count should be 2-4, but I have always tested three based on I want to see it but I would prefer not seeing it twice in one game.

If anyone is looking to build the mana base for a white splash start with my list. Then modify from there. There really is no need for a basic plains and I think if you play enough you will see it is pretty stable. I have gone back and forth on the great furnace. I think you should def run the artifact land if you run 7 sol lands, just knowing you are losing a small amount of explosiveness for greater utility. In the 8 sol land list( like I run) I am less sure of that. Maybe it is small sample size but I have been hurt in recent weeks by the furnace and would have wine a couple more matches and basically several hundred dollars if it had been a mountain.

Just a few thoughts.

Btw Jandax's primer is pretty spot on and is a great jumping on point for anyone as it is fairly up to date with the ever changing meta. And the third part may be the best and is something I want to continue to work on with him as I think it is both an amazing idea and a very valuable reference( I know David I haven't even talked with you yet about it)

Seth

They should be published in full over the next coming three weeks, so I'll link them to the OP for Jack to update. I agree, the third section should be an on going list to which we should constantly amend. If it gets too messy on the OP, we can always start another thread with a tight first page that contains everything.

Hey everyone! I have recently invested in this deck (Rw) on MTGO. Are there any videos of this version in action?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by cab0747

Hey everyone! I have recently invested in this deck (Rw) on MTGO. Are there any videos of this version in action?

Thanks!

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No videos that really showcase the white strengths. I may start streaming, though

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

No videos that really showcase the white strengths. I may start streaming, though

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If you do, I will be sure to watch. Keep us (well, me) updated!

So, I've been playing around with top vs tutor numbers on MTGO a lot and it's amazing how much worse the deck got when I cut tops. The biggest problem is that the land count is low enough that the top was the only good way to draw into them I think. I ended up cutting a welder (down to 2) and now play 3 top and 3 etutor and the deck has never ran better. I also put one copy of Ajani in the board, particularly for the miracles matchup and it has been honestly pretty fantastic. I think I will continue to split one Ajani and one Koth in the board.


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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

No videos that really showcase the white strengths. I may start streaming, though

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I would watch! Just make sure to have them available in your accounts history also!

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Originally Posted by yugular

I would watch! Just make sure to have them available in your accounts history also!

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I concur! i would follow you, that way we can discuss plays on the fly (with 20 seconds of twitch delay)

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Originally Posted by drude1

So, I've been playing around with top vs tutor numbers on MTGO a lot and it's amazing how much worse the deck got when I cut tops. The biggest problem is that the land count is low enough that the top was the only good way to draw into them I think. I ended up cutting a welder (down to 2) and now play 3 top and 3 etutor and the deck has never ran better. I also put one copy of Ajani in the board, particularly for the miracles matchup and it has been honestly pretty fantastic. I think I will continue to split one Ajani and one Koth in the board.

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Honestly I still don't get what Ajani Vengeant is accomplishing against the Miracles matchup... What are you tapping which is so critical to them? Also unless Miracles is over represented in your meta I wouldn't devote a sideboard slot specifically to the Miracles match-up.

Other news I maybe playing RW painter this weekend at a SCG invitational qualifier. Might just stick with mono red. I'll let everyone know how it goes either way.

Seth nailed it when he said that ajani is a distant third to Koth and chandra (respectively). Especially in the Miracles matchup, which is glacially slow from their end, Koth can put some real pressure on them.

I keep a koth in the main for miricles (a few in my meta) and he has won me a many games when stuck behind there counterbalance

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Okay, I will concede that Ajani may not be worth it. I still like him, but I don't know that I like him enough to take up a valuable slot in the SB. On that subject, one more consideration. I played this deck in a local Legacy tourney last noc, and my match-ups were:

1. Food-Chain combo with 3 Aldrazi guys and crap-tons of elves...auto-lose. Game one I have a revoker on Food-Chain and a bridge in play, but I have no way to win other than finding Jaya and dome him. Well, he found his terrastadon via Empath first and I lose. Game 2 I bring in alt win condition (1 koth + helm/R.I.P.) but he goes off on like turn 3.

2. Reanimator - lose to turn 2 griselbrand 2/3 games.

3. that Dragon-Stompy goblin deck - lose. I have my combo out twice but don't ever get a chance to activate as he has one million answers from searching up with moggcatcher.....drop

Horrible night. For one, really sad I took peacekeeper out of the board, as he would have been really good in the first two match-ups. He just seemed so fragile. Secondly, I know these are not typical match-ups one would see (except Reanimator), but I feel like this deck needs a better answer to other creature combo decks. For one, people are starting to play Pod in legacy. There is also Aluren, sneak/show, reanimator, 12-post and the other decks above. I considered torpor orb in the board, which would help a little. But I don't know if the benefit outweighs the cost of losing our imperial recruiters. Then I considered one copy of Humility, which I think I like. It does also have the draw-back of shutting off some of our own creatures, but the upside against a deck like reanimator or 12 post is huge. It also doesn't shut off our actual combo. I do know it's 2 white, and I would probably have to adjust the mana base a little for it. I also am concerned that it would make all opponent's dudes 1/1 and a swarm could get under bridge. But for the most part, you probably wouldn't bring it in against those decks anyway. It would also make firebolt or sudden demise really good. Just another card to consider. PLEASE don't tell me how I"m getting away from the combo aspect of the deck....I get it. I'm more looking for any experience people have had playing with or against humility. thanks.

p.s. for all you Koth lovers out there, just imagine koth activations with Humility in play!

^ Anyone who plays Humility against Painter deserves to get Kothed to death. And Humility occurs on a level lower (6) than color and ability changes (5), so the timestamp happens after Blood Moon changes non basics into Mountains and Painter makes all things a certain color. Plus, you already play RIP, against Eldrazi and the like, that's a helluva card that supports your main combo

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Originally Posted by jandax

^ Anyone who plays Humility against Painter deserves to get Kothed to death.

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I'll second that! D:

Don't be discouraged! Painter is very strong in the real meta right now. As for food chain and dragonstompy (i.e., budget decks) you might have to make some edits to the normal list. Or just force more combo rather than trying to interact.

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@Drude1- those were some rough match ups but as others have said that isn't a real meta. Some of those Boucher are terrible, to put it bluntly. You def don't want or need humility. Most likely I would say try a stock white splash list and test the ever loving shit out of it. But this is my advice to basically everyone on the board. Your best chance is to test one of those lists first before trying to innovate as the deck is far more complex than it first appears. If you add to many moving parts while learning how to play the deck you are destined to have trouble.

With the exception of like four or maybe five cards in the 75, I would say at least the shortcake lists are pretty tight and tuned for the entire legacy format. The minor differences between jack and mine are due to the different ways we want to solve similar problems and a slight variation in the way we approach a fee decks. I will leave the monored questions to more capable players

Seth

I die a little every time one of you calls the Rw deck shortcake

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Originally Posted by jandax

^ Anyone who plays Humility against Painter deserves to get Kothed to death. And Humility occurs on a level lower (6) than color and ability changes (5), so the timestamp happens after Blood Moon changes non basics into Mountains and Painter makes all things a certain color. Plus, you already play RIP, against Eldrazi and the like, that's a helluva card that supports your main combo

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So I'm confused, is it then your allegation that humility would be a good thing to consider or unnecessary? And if not humility, any other suggestions?


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Originally Posted by drude1

So I'm confused, is it then your allegation that humility would be a good thing to consider or unnecessary? And if not humility, any other suggestions?


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I'm sure David was talking about opposing Humilities. A double white card for this deck is not an option....

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Originally Posted by jandax

I die a little every time one of you calls the Rw deck shortcake

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sigh... same here

why exactly do they call it shortcake ? just curious

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

why exactly do they call it shortcake ? just curious

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Mixing the Red of Imperial Painter with the white splash and you end up with......

This: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oeUH3FezIU...strawberry.jpg

I guess....

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Originally Posted by Jelmerz77

Mixing the Red of Imperial Painter with the white splash and you end up with......

This: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oeUH3FezIU...strawberry.jpg

I guess....

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oh that just HURTS!

I keep a grafdiggers in my board for any of these eldrazi elf or pod decks. Its also ok against reanimator . Worth having one less bridge board

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

why exactly do they call it shortcake ? just curious

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It kinda just popped up. In my tournament report opening here I just threw out a random name since combining colors is apparently tech.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post766607


Then like a month after that or something Seth independently just started calling it strawberry shortcake and I couldn't really go against the godfather of white. So it just stuck from there lol.

I know legacy gurus have a hard on for naming decks weird things, but this is exactly what Jelmer said; a little cartoon girl name.

How hasn't Enlightened Painter been thrown around? It's much more manly and dignified than that-which-we-should-not-speak-of

How has that not been thrown around! I like it, has a certain class associated with it.... what?! You poor rug deck that folds to blood moon? Have you not been enlightened?

No basics? Let me enlighten you....



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Please explain to me how Blood Moon isn't the best card in legacy

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Originally Posted by Will_L

Please explain to me how Blood Moon isn't the best card in legacy

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It's true, BMoon is a 1 card combo.

Don't go putting Blood Moon up on a pedestal. It's a one card combo, but only when the opponents provide the missing pieces to the combo (lands to shut them off of)

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Originally Posted by Will_L

Please explain to me how Blood Moon isn't the best card in legacy

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Easy.

When on the play you drop it turn 1 then pass to an opponent who goes "mountain, aether vial, pass"... Doh!

There are plenty of matchups where blood moon isn't the best. Goblins prob just the best example. But I've played many.

Even "real" matchups like DnT and Miracles it's far from any auto win.

But is it good. Hell Yeah! Very good. You play it for the high percentage of matches that it is bonkers or at worst a serious impediment to your opponent.



Oh! and "Enlightened Painter"... I like that!

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Hey kap in the card explanation section was wondering if you could add one on SDT? Unless I missed it somewhere, with so many interactions in the deck it would be a great read thanks.

Well, here it is my first tournament report for Strawberry Shortcake. I played in the LGS $500 monthly tournament with 30 playing and came 6th in the swiss. I withdrew before the finals because it’s my wedding anniversary and turning up late for a glass of Bollinger with the ‘trouble and strife’ would have been exactly that.

I played Kap’n’s list swapping ratchet bomb for powder keg because there’s a bit of affinity and man-lands and one of the guys in the shop would have lectured me for 10 minutes on why it is better and I wanted to avoid that. Call it a meta call.

Round 1 – Affinity 2-0
Game 1, I start my campaign with all the combo and the lands to power it, I decide to go for it and turn 3 grind him. During sideboarding he conferences with the judges to ask, I subsequently learn, about RIP’s interaction with grindstone, this has the inadvertent result of bringing the judges over to watch… I side in Powder Keg

Game 2, we grind it out, I get stuck on two mountains but am able to cast a bridge and manage to draw one and two drops but no lands, I have the combo in play and he has revoked the grindstone. I get out powder keg and miss the ‘may’ in the wording missing the trigger while the judge is standing over my shoulder, no biggy but he berates me about reading the cards. I am SDTing keeping any three drops out of my hand as best I can and just when the bridge is being raised enough, I get the final land, have a keg party at two killing the revoker and activate grindstone.

Round 2 – Shardless 2-1
Game 1, My opponent has been testing with me for the past couple of weeks and tutoring me on goblin welder chicanery, so it is fitting that with me on 3, looking at lethal, I weld in the painter in response to the grind and win the game. I side in Bridge and REB.

Game 2, I keep a hand with mana and spells but it lacks resolution and I take the beats. No moon, no bridge, no combo, no win.

Game 3, I keep a hand with recruiter, SDT, and grindstone, with enough mana to power it. I decide to go for it again but my stone gets forced and I switch to recruiting a welder, which resolves. I have tomb and mountain in play and blast in hand, top reveals a city and painter. I draw the painter, resolve it off the tomb, top for the city, welding the top on activation for the stone, drop the city and grind. It was the textbook play he walked me through when I first picked up the deck two weeks ago.

Round 3 – Sneak and Show 0-2
Game 1, I have played against this guy before, I know what he is on, he is also the runner up at the recent Melbourne Standard GP, to say I was expecting to win goes beyond optimism. I tell him I am going to win. I win the roll. I had read the primer for this match-up in the morning because this is the one I am most fearful of, it helped keep me off tilt game one… He turn two shows an emrakul, (I attempt the monkey blast but he is having none of that - FOW). I show a grindstone hoping to rip god knows what, which I don’t rip and the annihilator 6 takes my boots, my clothes, my motorcycle. Side in REB and GY hate.

Game 2, gets me a snap keep grip with crypt, rip, mana to cast it, a painter and a blast. I put out the hate and hold the blast, his turn one, volcanic island, petal, petal, petal, sneak attack, pass. WTF! I want to say I ripped a revoker and followed it up with a bridge before assembling the combo to take me to game three, which I take in similar fashion and he extends his hand and says, “Good game sir.” But no, that would be a lie… What he actually says is, “Activate Sneak Attack. Declare Attacks. Annihalator.” I never recover, nay, I will never recover.

Round 4 – Dredge – 2-1
Game 1, I win the roll, I hold a combo rich hand with the mana to cast T1 and activate T2, and grind him turn 2. Side in GY hate.

Game 2, I mull to five into a slower hand, establish a bridge but can’t drop it low enough to stop the zombies. The Zombies!!!!!

Game 3, I keep a GY hate hand with stone and top. I activate crypt end of my turn having set the SDT, grindstone, with a city and painter on top (out of reach of his thought seizes) combo. He doesn’t dredge but thought seizes for a painter that is and isn’t there (MUWHAHAHAHAHA! ha!) and is oblivious to his peril. Peril achieved.

I am now sitting at 4th and in overtime on Anniversary obligations.

Round 5 – Deathblade – 0-2
Game 1, I get an opening text from the wife, “when are you coming home?” My deck refuses to cooperate or even acknowledge that mana is both worthwhile and present. I mull to four, damn you to hell deck. I made you, you will bow to my will, as part of your worship ritual serve me up solid hands first time every time. My first four spells are forced or ploughed, I die to Batterskull. Board in REB and bridge.

Game 2, He plays a tight textbook game. I, on the other hand, keep a seven with moon, tomb, petal, mountain, a bridge, a monkey, recruiter. I get turn one moon on and a turn two bridge and then do not draw a land for the next 7 turns. He gets SFM and a Jitte and then proceeds to attack pump under the bridge until he ultimates lil and makes me choose between a bridge and moon. I choose bridge, which he then decays and I feel so naked.

I withdraw from the finals and head home. My wife and I head out to fine dining and she reminds me why I married her by pulling off believable interest in my babbling about getting into the top 8.

What's the RIP - Grindstone interaction? Shouldn't effect anything for your gameplay other than shutting off welder.




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Question for you guys; do you think that Imperial Painter will rise to be a Tier 1 deck/a large part of the meta? It certainly has good match-ups against a lot of the field, and it has been putting up good results.

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Originally Posted by Etched

Question for you guys; do you think that Imperial Painter will rise to be a Tier 1 deck/a large part of the meta? It certainly has good match-ups against a lot of the field, and it has been putting up good results.

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This has been discussed recently. Just look back a few pages.

In short. No. The deck has put up good results but not in enough numbers to become a huge meta threat. The power of the deck will be kept in check by the small number of players bringing it to tournaments.

However, if your definition of tier 1 is simply competitiveness... Than that is just a different conversation. Since tier 1/2 in legacy is always in flux and sometimes very little difference between the two tiers.


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Originally Posted by Rampart

The "Deck to Beat" status is reserved for the highest concentration of deck types that finish well. For example last month Team America had 43 top finishes and painter (all painter variants) had 8. For painter to make that jump there would need to a lot more top 8 appearances which is difficult due to a lot of factors like cost/scarcity among others for this deck. Painter is a fringe deck, although a cool one it will probably never make that jump.

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Answers the previous question perfectly

edit: Ish sniping

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

edit: Ish sniping

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Lol


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Originally Posted by Ish

What's the RIP - Grindstone interaction? Shouldn't effect anything for your gameplay other than shutting off welder.

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There is none but I have had it asked a couple of times if grindstone fails because there is no graveyard.