I finally don't own the deck anymore, but I agree with Contract Killer: watch those videos! :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by edahl
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I finally don't own the deck anymore, but I agree with Contract Killer: watch those videos! :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by edahl
Since I went through the (very slight) hassle of finding them all anyway, here they are:
http://www.channelfireball.com/video...cy-rug-delver/
http://www.channelfireball.com/video...-rug-delver-2/
http://www.channelfireball.com/video...-rug-delver-3/
http://www.channelfireball.com/video...ug-delver-3-2/
http://www.channelfireball.com/video...-rug-delver-5/
The opening of this game against miracles is very interesting. I'd force top in a heartbeat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKe_...R8KzLx&index=4
Videos of Wilson's tournament play
http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?...ide=&strict=on
Top is an enabler, but it doesn't actually effect us if that makes sense. It's only card selection and not actual card advantage. Jacob suggests that top has them spending more mana on their turn which is good for us which I think most people agree with. If the opponent mulligans and leads top off of either a dual or a plains I would probably force it because we could either waste them or they might not have good mana to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by edahl
There are merits for either side of the argument, but I think the general consensus is that we should let top resolve most of the time. The issue is that the game against miracles will go long and they have a lot of answers for our threats. If we force their opening top and can't protect our threat from their swords to plowshares, or deal with their counterbalance (which still has high blind flip percentages at 1cmc) then we lose. RUG delver is all about only countering the stuff that you have to. Top isn't something we have to counter, but their terminus they play on turn 4 after goose gets online we do.
A few things to note about playing against miracles when they have top out our wastelands can be really good. What I mean by this is if they flip top and have a fetch up waste it in response. They won't crack because the top card is probably terminus or entreat and it helps make our soft permission better while still saving stifles for miracle triggers. Another thing to be aware of is that if a miracles player reveals terminus and passes priority for stifle check let's say turn 3 with the following boardstate:
island
island
fetch
top
They have to maintain priority and fetch with the trigger on the stack in the above situation. If the miracles player passes priority we can pass back and they can't fetch to pay because after the trigger resolves they have to pay for it or not cast it. I wouldn't say this situation comes up often, but it's good to know since miracles is a match up that has a lot of small interactions we need to look for and respond too.
Another key interaction that some miracle players don't know is flusterstorm by passes counterbalance lock, or at least the copies do since they're "placed on the stack" and not "played". This can lead to huge blow outs if the miracles player goes for entreat thinking they're safe with force in hand and leaving a mana up for daze. So in that situation if storm is just at 1 for entreat meaning we need to play at least 1 more spell so two copies get through. They could pay for 1 copy with the open mana and then force the other though so if you could do something like brainstorm, bolt (countered by counterbalance :/ ) followed by flusterstorm there's really not much they could do about 3 copies on the stack targeting the entreat except flusterstorm back, but then there wasn't anything we could do to begin with.
Brilliant post!
Great post Contract Killer!
Playing a tier deck sure feels good. I'll be sure to get ahold of a Flusterstorm (or two) for my SB.
@Bed Decks Palyer: How come you got rid of this deck?
Quick question what do you guys think of this list:
54 stock with 2/2/2 split of forked bolt, spell snare, spell pierce
Sideboard:
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 envelop
2 grafdigger's cage
2 rough and tumble
2 submerge
1 vendilion clique
1 sylvan library
1 ancient grudge
Normally I run 1 more artifact/enchantment hate spell + 1 generic pithing needle or 3rd pyroblast in the 2 envelop slot. What I've found after more testing is that I really only want the 3rd pyroblast against miracles which is already a good match up (at least 55/45 in our favor). The other revelry again mainly for miracles to help beat resolved counterbalances. I think making the concession of having the miracles match rely more on the stack vs the ability to beat a resolved counterbalance/RIP is fine. I'm just not sure if 1 ancient grudge is enough for artifact hate decks. I mean I'm running 8 answers maindeck to stoneforge (4 bolt, 2 forked, 2 snare) plus 4 stifles for batterskull. The other thing I just haven't had a lot of experience with is envelop, but it seems solid against miracles, storm, show and tell and elves.
After doing a lot of testing against storm recently against a really good pilot I actually think the match up while 50/50 isn't that good. Despite us having stifle the opponent was always able to disrupt my hand enough that by the time he went off he was able to play around everything. Which I think is partially because I never seemed to have that good of pressure against him since goose is horrible against storm and goyf I never felt like I could tap out for and delver I never had on turn 1 that often. Envelop seems to help a lot post board has anyone else tested it out? I mean the main issue I had was he would duress, therapy my hand away and then went off knowing I just had something like pierce/daze/stifle that he could play around or get rid of with another therapy after past in flames resolved. It just seems like for this match up you need a turn 1 delver for it to be anywhere in your favor or just a bad storm pilot who's too trigger happy which never seems to be in my cards.
That SB looks like what I'd play aside from Envelop. My meta has a lot of Vial and Stoneblade, and a resolved Batterskull just sounds horrible. Personally I'd rather have more answers to artifacts and enchantments, but maybe that's just a crutch while I learn the deck (my experience with RUG is a Punishing Fire+Young Pyromancer deck with a little less disruption and no Wasteland or Stifle). The match-ups you mention sound like match-ups we feel good about anyway. When it comes to tapping out for Tarmogoyf, that sounds like the kind of situation where you sometimes have to ... just hope they don't have it. My experience with this deck though, is pretty much none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
I'm new to this forum, this format and this deck. I somehow feel incredibly at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
Hey guys fellow RUG player here, I have been slowly trading for this deck and I'm only a volcanic away! My play testing is limited, I have watched everything I can find and am in the process and reading this entire thread!
I never played it since last summer. In fact I played no sanctioned tournament since then, as Legacy turned to boring shit. Realizing I don't want things I have no need for, I sold most of my cards including the core of Can Thresh.Quote:
Originally Posted by edahl
But I still got it in my MWS folder if I want to Stifle some fetches and tap the Goyfs... :smile:
IDK. The whole Storm matchup is pretty random, sometimes you draw bad hands and lose, other times youflip Delver and then cantrip into permission and the opponent is never in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
I found Grafdiggers Cage really helpful, as it stops one of their main engines. Although they can Decay it, they still need to draw into it, moreover they need to find slots for it.
I cut some number of creatures, either mix of Goyfs and Mongooses, or if I'm in a mood for hard labour, I tinker with correct numbers depending on play/draw. Then the two FBs get cut, of course, and maybe one LB if that's necessary, as I don't expect Xantid Swarm, at least not in big numbers. This leaves you with some 6 slots at least, maybe one more (say you cut all goyfs otd) and thus you may bring 2 Cage, 3 REB, 2 Flusterstorm which should be enough:
3 Bolts for random XS and/or faster clock
4 FoWs
2 Snares (IT, CRit, maybe BW)
6 conditional counters in Daze and Spell Pierce
4 Stifles (I prefer to go after their fetches to limit their development, but late game save them for storm)
2 Flusterstorms
3 Blasts to hit the cantrips and once again slow the opponents development
8-9 critters to have some clock
Obviously Vendilion Clique really helps as it's both creature and permission. I play one, as it's also good against Miracles.
In your sb I dislike Envelop, as I much rather play answers against the least prevalent prison deck, DnT. I hate to lose to BSkull, so I play Artifact Mutation and then KGrip to destroy any RiP or CB or w/e:
2 Rough/Tumble (creatures)
3 Pyroblast (we play Legacy)
2 Flusterstorm (it's quite solid against Hymn, Stifle, etc., switch with FoW?)
1 Ancient Grudge (BSkull, MUD, DnT, Vial)
1 Artifact Mutation (BSkull, MUD, DnT)
1 Krosan Grip (RiP, CB, MUD, BSkull)
2 Grafdigger's Cage (Storm, Elves, grave decks)
2 Pithing Needle (JTMS, Lili of TV, SDT, EE... the targets are countless)
1 Vendilion Clique (Miracles and combo; it also flies over elves, yet it's pretty slow)
That's my sb for a foreseeable future. I dislike SL as it does nothing the turn it comes to play, gets more powerful as the game turns longer (something we should avoid) and has no p/t.
I dislike Envelop as it's pretty limited and except for Miracles (and to Storm to some extent) I don't find a need for it.
Aw, what happened? What's an MWS folder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Nice points on storm!
BTW, is TNN an ok budget option for Clique in the sideboard?
Well, at least Treasure Cruise happened. And an overall boredom of overall state o format. MWS stands for Magic Workstation, a freeware for internet card games.Quote:
Originally Posted by edahl
I played storm, I played lots against storm, and i played lots against Sloshthedark, storm specialist. I might be wrong, of course, but I think that this approach is reasonable.
I wouldn't play TNN. You need to tap out and it provides no utility against combo. It's good as Mongoose no.5, but the cost is too prohibitive, imho.
Yeah that makes sense I guess. I'm looking at trying envelop because it seems fairly good against miracles, amazing against storm and pretty good against elves. I think I'll switch my 1 artifact hate slot to a K-grip since I'm just playing 1 artifact hate card. Pithing needle is definitely good it's just a card that I've found hard to measure it's value in anything outside of miracles. Since it provides virtual card advantage and decks like d&t or maverick you can name a number of different things, but they have so much redundancy. I just found my games against storm to be sub par as of late here's my current board plan:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
- 2 forked bolt
- 4 bolt
- 2 goyf
+2 cage
+2 envelop
+2 flusterstorm
+1 vendilion clique
+1 pyroblast
Pyroblast does help in hitting their can trips, but it's still kind of weak if you draw it to late. I mean unless you hit one of their early turn 1 or 2 brainstorm/ponder it's one of the worst cards you could draw later in the game. I also like to keep at least 10 threats in, but that's just a personal preference.
Sylvan Library is mainly to help against miracles. It's just so good in that match up. Our life total doesn't matter like at all in that match up and we can get so many good cards to sculpt an unbeatable hand. Maybe I'm overvaluing it for just that one match up.
This is the list I'm planning on playing in a tourney next weekend. Should be fairly stock:
4 Delver, Goose, Goyf, FoW, Stifle, Daze, Wasteland, ...
3 Trop, Volcanic
8 Fetch
3 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Forked Bolt
SB:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Rough
1 Flusterstorm (or temporary replacement)
1 Vendilion Clique (or temporary replacement)
For the temps I'm thinking maybe Envelop and a Krosan Grip.
I have an artifact mutation sitting around. Great to see someone try it out. Thought it would be amazing against batterskull!
Hey Guys. I am a new Legacy player. My LGS just started a weekly 18-proxy Legacy event every Sunday. Last week, we had 8 players, and I got 3rd place winning $20 store credit. Today, we had 8 players again, and I got 1st place winning $40 store credit. I am pretty pumped. I used Slide's list and sideboard guide
Round 1 - Death and Taxes (2-0)
Game 1 - I burn a Mom and a Thalia. Beat down with Goyf for the win.
Game 2 - I don't draw any sideboard cards. I just play two Delvers and a Goyf and I outrace him.
Round 2 - Storm (2-1)
Game 1 - I beat down with double Goyf and a full grip of counterspells.
Game 2 - He has double Xantid Swarm and locks me out. He wins on Turn 5.
Game 3 - I beat down with a Delver and a Goose. He gets a Xantid Swarm out. I get him down to 3 life. So he goes for it. I Stifle Xantid Swarm's triggered ability and Daze his rituals away. He scoops.
Round 3 - Death and Taxes (2-1)
Game 1 - I mulligan to 5. He gets out Mom, Thalia, SFM, and Batterskull. I play 3 Goyfs but he Plows them all away.
Game 2 - He plays 3 Moms. I play Pithing Needle naming Mom. Delver and Goyf get there.
Game 3 - I probe him. He has SoFaI, SFM, Thalia, RiP, and Flickerwisp. I play Delver. He plays SFM getting Batterskull. I bolt SFM. I get Goyf out. He plays Rest in Peace. He gets Thalia and Sword of Fire and Ice. He kills my Delver. But he is at 6 life. So I pay 1R to Bolt EoT. And then pay 1R during my upkeep to Bolt him again.
I have only been playing Legacy for 2 weeks so far, but I am loving it. I can't wait to get real Dual lands and toss these proxies in the trash.
My first time playing RUG delver I got my butt handed to me on a silver platter by a Jund Depths player. That when I learnt that this deck isn't for anyone and that this is hands down one of the most skill intensive, brain aching decks that anyone could pick up and learn to play. This is my first list of RUG delver that I've ever but together. Could I please get some help from this forum on learning how to sideboard properly.
RUG Delver
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Fork Bolt
4 Wasteland
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sideboard Tech that can keep up with True-Name Nemisis.
This is my deck so far that I'm working with and it's actually keeping up with all the other decks that beat tempo. The only time I feel it folds is when I can't keep up with a True-Name Nemisis. Am I just playing it wrong when I'm up against Stoneblade/American/Deathblade/Esper/Grixis Control type decks?
I feel as though in my meta Spell Snare isn't that good unfortunately. Everyone seems to run everything except for 2 drops (excluding Tarmogoyf). I like Gitaxian Probe, cause its a can-trip and I have information about what my opponent is playing already.
My meta is a lot of Burn, Death-Taxes, Maverick, Landstill, Grixis (true-name) control, all the stoneblades, miracles.
I've been approximately been playing this deck for about 2 and a half years, so some advice would be much appreciated. :smile:
@zhanger
Have you tried playing TNN in the sideboard? We are usually ahead in the early turns against the TNN decks and just gas out as TNN hits the floor. I think playing TNN against them might be useful.
Pyroblast is a great SB card that will help out in a lot of other matches.
If you wanted to get crazy you could run one underground sea and use golgari charm. I don't think it is a good solution though.
Sometimes 3 mana can be a lot against us.
I don't want to end up using the problem as an answer to the problem. I've told my self that I'd never play it unless it was absolutely necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerios
My friend has a card that he isn't willing to divulge until i get it. He says it's from Legends and it's more then able to keep up or even take over with a true-name on the field.
I've tried keeping up with my own TNN and it doesn't work out, most of the time they end up finding someway of dealing with it.
There's no good answer for TNN that we have in our tool set unfortunately. That sideboard seems fine a bit more singleton than I would like, but maybe that's just me. It's also really light on combo hate, but I guess that's just not a problem for you. For that meta if Maverick and D&T are prevalent then it might be worth it to run 1 sulfur elemental (he's also not half bad against Miracles as an EOT threat and easier to get through counterbalance lock if that happens).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhanger
Null rod I'm not a huge fan of. It stops top, but needle already does that and is much more flexible. It doesn't do anything against batterskull which is our main problem. Any other equipment SoFI, Jitte, etc are too slow to play against us. When they equip we can just bolt the creature in response. If they're using jitte half the time we can stifle the counter trigger and it's irrelevant. The only thing null rod does is it really hoses storm since they can't use half of their fast mana and stops the hellbent enabler that is LED. Since there isn't a lot of storm in your meta though I would cut it.
For D&T accept it's a bad match up and there's only so much you can do. With that being said this would probably be the best board plan
OTP:
- 2 probe
- 2 pierce
- 1 force
+ 2 rough
+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 sulfur elemental
OTD
- 2 probe
- 2 pierce
- 1 daze
Like this is just a bad match up they have Mom and thalia and their mana denial plan is better than ours. On top of that half of their threats are must answer on the spot or huge roadblocks for us (flickerwisp, serra angel, Mirran crusader, Brimaz). They also have the stoneforge package which we have to deal with. There's just too many threats for us to keep on top of while they're wastelanding/porting us.
Maverick isn't that bad of a match up. It's slightly in their favor but not by much. So long as we kill drs, deal with stoneforge and keep knight of the board we're fine.
OTP
- 3 force
- 2 pierce this is just really bad here. It really doesn't do much and it might be better than force otp but definitely out otd.
- 2 probe
+ 2 submerge
+ 2 rough
+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 sulfur elemental
OTD
- 2 probe
- 2 pierce
- 1 daze
- 2 force
Landstill is a weird match up and hard to board against. They're probably in the BUG shell with drs, loam, factory, pernicious deed, etc. For sideboard against them we really don't have much just because of the angle they attack from. Vendilion clique is good to snag loams out during draw steps. Pyroblast is pretty good since it hits standstill, tar pit, jtms, bs etc. If you have a loam in the board it's pretty good as well.
Grixis builds are just like any other tempo mirror it's all about who doesn't play as badly as the other. Tempo mirrors are by far the hardest part of playing RUG and just take a lot of practice. For boarding you'll want to shave all forces on the play since we don't need them and I like to keep 2 in on the draw since there's a lot of stuff we need to answer. If they're threat combination is something like delver, young pyro and tnn then you will definitely want rough and pyroblasts. I usually do something like this in tempo mirrors:
OTP:
- 4 force
+ 2 submerge (if they run goyf/tombstalker)
+ 1 pyroblast ( This varies depending on threats. If they're bug and I just see delver, drs, goyf then just 1, but if they have TNN board in 2 - 3)
+ 1 - 2 flusterstorm This just helps win counter wars and tempo mirrors are usually mana tight
+ 2 rough if they have young pyromancer
OTD just change what comes out:
- 2 force
- 2 pierce
*In tempo mirrors always keep probe in. Normally unless it's combo you don't need it post board because it just helps you feel out game 1. Tempo mirrors though the information is very helpful.
Esper blade, deathblade and UWR blade will have similar boarding strategies and how we should play the game. Stifle fetches if possible because it really helps our soft permission and keeping the game where we want it. If they play stonforge mystic there's a few routes to deal with it. The best way is snare or daze obviously. Half the time they will just go get batterskull anyways which is great for us since all we have to do is stifle the germ trigger. It's very time consuming for them to bounce it back followed by replaying it a turn later and so long as we have pressure we can win the race. The other option is just kill stoneforge. All together between bolts/counters/stifle we have like what 10 - 18 answers between counters and removal. Boarding you will want to do something like this:
OTP:
- 4 force
- 2 gitaxian probe
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 vendilion clique
+ 1 - 3 pyroblasts depending on if they're running TNN or not
+ 2 roughs if they're running young pyromancer in UWR or 1 against deathblade OTP isn't horrible since they have drs and stoneforge
OTD:
- 2 force
- 2 probe
- 2 daze
Against Deathblade OTD don't put rough in. Tapping out turn 2 while might net a 2 for 1 leads to blow outs turn 3 if they drop lili/TNN.
Stifle you could shave here, but I think it has too much value in these matchups as time walks against stoneforge or nullifying Liliana's edict effect.
Miracles is a really swingy 50/50 match up that can go either way. As for boarding do something like this:
OTP
- 2 gitaxian probe
- 2 forked bolt
- 2 bolt
+ 1 vendilion clique
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 pithing needle
+ 1 null rod
+ all pyroblasts you have
+ 1 - 2 flusterstorm This card is up for debate in this match up. Personally I really like it because it helps when fighting over important spells like entreat, jace, terminus, etc. It also by passes counterbalance lock at least the copies do which is niche, but nice to have up your sleeve incase you opponent punts tapping out for entreat.
OTD
- 2 forked bolt
- 2 gitaxian probe
- 4 daze this card is just outright bad on the draw against miracles. Even on the play if we draw it late game it's disgustingly bad which the game will go since they have so many outs. On the other hand it's just too good to not have on the play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
The land still type decks that I've been playing against is American, it's a very strong control type deck. I think I'm just not countering properly against it just because he seems to always have the upper hand. Thank you for this by the way, it's extremely helpful just because i'm not entirely just which cards to be looking to sideboard.:smile:
Since I picked up the deck, I have had trouble deciding which decks to take out stifle against, since almost every deck has an important stifle target. Any advice on which decks should I value stifle more against?
I have a friend who plays UWR land still and it's definitely not an ideal match up but still better than BUG landstill. Pyroblast is king here because their late game finishers are going to be Geist of saint traft, TNN or JTMS. Similar to Miracles the game is bound to go long so making sure you only counter what needs to be like standstill TNN, Geist and jace is key. Despite how promising pyroblasting a brainstorm looks they could just be baiting you so that their swords, standstill, tnn etc will resolve. This is how I would board against them with probably the most rounded maindeck/sideboard you could run:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhanger
54 stock with 2/2/2 forked bolt, snare, pierce
sideboard
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 flusterstorm
2 submerge
2 rough
2 grafidgger's cage
1 ancient grudge
1 krosan grip
1 vendilion clique
1 sylvan library
OTP:
- 2 forked bolt unnecessary unless you see them running a stoneforge package which would be unusual, but it's a fringe deck with many different variants.
- 4 force of will
+ 2 pyroblast
+ 1 reb
+ 2 flusterstorm not amazing or mvp here, but it helps resolving counter wars which is important
+ 1 sylvan library great card engine in this match up especially since our life total doesn't matter too much.
If they're on geist of saint traft again it's a fringe deck and the lists will vary a lot then siding in rough as an answer is reasonable.
OTD:
- 2 pierce It's not at its best on the draw, but I still think daze holds value in beating early standstills or TNN that they try to jam.
- 2 forked bolt
- 1 stifle
- 1 daze both stifle and daze lose value on the draw but neither I would say is worse or better than the other.
Stifle is just a very high risk high reward card that has been up for debate about whether it should be in the deck to begin with for about as long as RUG Delver has been around. There are some decks that taking it out is just almost immediate listed below. Most of the time though it's just in a vague area where you'll might want to shave 1 copy and a daze or 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinsplayer
Merfolk OTP it might be worth keeping in if they're running fetches + wasteland. OTD shaving or cutting all is reasonable since you're not likely to hit fetches and at that point it's just protecting our lands from their 4 wastelands
MUD stifle does just about nothing here. You might get to blow someone's forgemaster trigger out of the water but aside from that it doesn't really do anyting.
Burn it's really bad here again OTP it might be worth it since tier 1 burn runs a full set of fetches and you can "counter" rift bolt. OTD I would definitely cut in favor of more counterspells/extra threats. Oh and a heads up if you win game 1 against burn watch out game 2 for ensnaring bridge. They sometimes bring it in against us and we can't beat that with out some artifact hate or on the stack. It's still not worth warranting a slot for revelry or grudge on the hunch, but if you see it game 2 bring in grudge game 3.
Reanimator I guess OTD I would cut it just because how fast they are. We need all the counters we can get against them and OTD stifle is just too slow/lack of targets for just fetches and maybe their 2 animate deads.
Elves stifle is pretty bad to be honest. Then again most of our deck is bad against elves. It's somewhere between daze and stifle being our worst card against them. Daze is definitely out against them OTD, but even OTP daze feels bad. Stifle isn't much better, but at least we can hit their fetches and possibly save ourselves from a craterhoof trigger.
Despite stifle being sometimes "dead" or card disadvantage it still has major tempo applications for us even OTD. Any decks running lili it's an added I guess pseudo counter if they rely on her to deal with goose. Decks with stoneforge mystic it can time walk their batterskull which they probably need to stabilize also giving us another chance at finding removal for stoneforge. Even against combo like Show and Tell or storm they still need lands and if they have trouble trying to get their lands resolve through a stifle then they might have less counter/hand disruption to protect their combo. OTD it sort of does nothing, but still interacts with a lot of fair decks (bug delver, maverick, D&T, UWR delver etc) and mid range decks (esper blade, deathblade, Shardless bug, Miracles, etc). I usually shave one and maybe a daze OTD depending on the deck, but it's still an integral part of our game plan. One of the best local legacy players I know attributed cutting stifle to this "cutting stifle is like switching from a good plan A to usually a worse plan B".
Here's a really good article about RUG delver and particularly stifle and how it plays in the deck:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...er_Primer.html
While I don't agree with how much Drew down plays stifle he raises some really good points. The most important of such I think is not letting stifle force you into making bad plays. Between holding up stifle turn 1 and playing out a threat the correct choice is almost always a threat. Once we get a creature on the board we can start controlling their board state, but if we try to do it in the other way around stifling a fetch actually doesn't help us much. Unless we have pressure to capitalize on them losing their land and their tempo then we actually didn't gain much tempo ourselves.
The other thing I don't like about his article (which I'm not sure if Miracles was even that popular at the time or still in it's infancy) he didn't go over stifles implications against terminus/entreat. Even if we're not countering terminus it still forces the miracles player to put it back on the top of their library somehow. At which point they either have to burn 2 turns setting it up with brainstorm or they have jace out in which case we're in bad shape to begin with. My point is if we have an active goose and keep them off of resolving terminus to deal with than the Miracles player is losing their window to stabilize and fast.
Drew also points out in that article that it's atrocious OTD. It's definitely at it's worse their, but it's still interacts with many important cards we care about more than I think he values the interaction at. Just understanding when to shave a few copies here and there over other cards comes with practice. There's no real easy explanation as to when to cut stifle, shave or keep it in it just comes with playing the deck and gaining experience.
Hi everyone, I'm new to Legacy, I've always wanted to play it, and I finally was able to start playing the format on magic online. I started with a u/r delver deck with treasure cruise, that splashed for Tarmogoyfs, and since cruise got banned, I started making RUG Delver, as it looked good to me, and I was close to owning everything already.
This is the list I've been playing:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Forked Bolt
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 True-Name Nemesis
I've been doing pretty well with it, and have beat a wide variety of decks. I also have another list saved where I try out new sideboard and main deck configurations.
Cards that I've been trying are: Sylvan Library, Divert, and Teferi's Response (the latter of which I feel won't end up being that good).
That list seems ok except for the singleton Gitaxian Probe. Probe's utility is in having it in your opener to make our early sequencing better. The downside of probe is drawing it mid to late game usually isn't that good, and it makes our brainstorms and ponders worse since it's a "mystery" card. I would say for probe to be useful run 3. I've seen some lists run 2, but again I think it's just running 3+ or none at all to maximize it's potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandswamp
I've tried Sylvan Library maindeck and it's ok or horrible depending on the match up. It's really good against combo, miracles and ok against some of the slower mid range UWR, esper and deathblade builds. The issue is it's too slow against other fair decks and effectively does nothing the turn we play it. Rather than advancing our boardstate it's a win more card that helps us get further ahead. I wouldn't say it's unplayable, but just that depending on your match ups it's either going to be amazing or just something to shuffle away with brainstorm.
Divert I've tried running in the board shortly after TNN came out and UWR delver with TNN was the big kid on the block. They have 8 removal spells so it seemed like it might be worthwhile out of the board. After testing it though it's just to conditional and corner case. I think my best result with it was swinging in with Goyfs against jund him having only 3 mana up after tapping for lili the previous turn. He was going to punishing fire one of my goyfs after he blocked with his, but I diverted it back at his goyf :D. I can also tell you right now Teferi's Response will be god awful.
The only things I would really change with that sideboard is take out the TNN (this may be more of personal preference). Unless there's a lot of miracles switch out the Vortex with something like another pyroblast/reb. The spell pierce out of the board I'm not a huge fan of seeing as where we want it most will be against combo and flusterstorm is just better for that purpose so I would just up flusterstorm to 2.
People in a legacy facebook group mentioned that someone played Teferi's Response on camera at an scg event. I had enough bot credit to pick one up without spending a ticket, so I picked it up. Divert I haven't even been able to use yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
The list started with three probes. I cut down to two, then one. I guess I should just make a choice of either three or none. It's great at helping me know how to sequence my plays, as you said, plus it helps turn on threshold faster. The reason I cut it was I wanted to make room for the extra spell pierce and spell snare. I had games where I was doing great, and then they played a Goyf or SFM that I didn't have an answer for, I felt like spell snare was a good choice. And it has done well.
I think i'll save a list with no probes, and one with three, and take turns practicing with them to get a feel for what I want to be running.
The decks I've had the most trouble with are Death and Taxes, and Elves. I've since added a sulfur elemental to the sideboard. I keep winning one of the games against D&T, but they always seem to get me in game three. The Burn deck has beaten me a few times as well.
Thanks for the advice!
P.S. Since Treasure Cruise has been banned, and the ban took effect online, the metagame breakdown on mtggoldfish has gone back (i assume, as I'm new) to not having one deck take up a significantly larger portion of the percentage of decks. Right now, ANT and Miracles are listed on top. I have to assume that I'm more likely to be facing those top several decks more, and adjust my sideboard accordingly.
you could just cut probe entirely....Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandswamp
edit: I play 0 probes and 2 spell snare
That's the other issue I've had with probe because even if you see something a mile away sometimes you still can't stop it. Many times I would see goyf or Liliana or something and then start digging for our only real answer for goyf force couldn't find it and then lost because theirs resolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandswamp
As for D&T again it's a bad match up and that's something we just have to live with. The sideboard I listed above is the best you could really do against them without sacrificing slots against other decks. We just have to play really tight against them because they have so many must answer cards. On the bright side there's so many minute triggers they have to manage unless the player is good it's easy for them to make mistakes. Remember legacy is all about just not playing as bad as your opponent.
Elves again just a bad match up. I would almost go as far to say that if we lose game 1 we almost lose the set. Elves is just that powerful otp against us that if we lose game 1 and we do manage to win game 2 game 3 will still be absurdly hard. This is another deck that's really hard to play (I would rank it in the top 3 difficulty wise) so there's plenty of people that punt games away with it. Our best bet against them is for rough to dig us out after they extend out a bit and net some two for ones along with a forked bolt or two.
Miracles and ANT are both fairly tough match ups for us and the opponent. They just take a lot of planning and knowing how to play them. ANT I would almost say is harder than miracles because if the opponent is good they're definitely favored. To be perfectly honest just keep practicing those matches a lot there's no easy way to learn them just repletion.
With Miracles, I have beaten much more than I've lost to. I'd have to go look at my record to be certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
It took me a while to get the hang of piloting this deck, but I think I'm advancing pretty well.
I write articles for puremtgo, and I wrote about my experiences playing the deck. I feel like a lot of times, I don't want to Jam a creature turn one, I'd rather hold up Stifle if possible. Once I started doing that, instead of just playing a delver turn one and having it die to something, I saw my win percentage climb.
I don't get to choose what I practice against, because I'm playing online, I also play at irregular times (whenever I happen to have the chance, basically). So I've only faced D&T twice, and elves twice. Both times I played D&T I managed to win one of the games pretty easily, and lost game three.
Thanks for the advice. I wish I'd started playing this format sooner, it's by far the most fun I've ever had playing constructed magic.:cool:
Online I could definitely see that holding up stifle turn 1 is reasonable if you have a second land. The issue I have is everyone at my LGS knows I play RUG Delver lol. With that being said I just kind of gave up on holding up stifle turn 1 since everyone knows that if I play land pass I have it and they'll either play non fetch or just wait to play around stifle. Personally I value playing out a turn 1 threat more than holding up stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandswamp
I just don't think the value of trying to get free wins is higher than the disadvantage of them playing out something other than a fetch and play like bayou into deathrite. They could also play basic island/plains into top in which case holding up stifle is dead. It could be a tempo mirror and they do underground sea/volcanic into delver in which case we're really behind. Then again I might just be going over my own experiences of trying to hold up stifle when everyone knows I have it lol. I will admit when it does work it makes the game so much easier.
Is there anyway of quantifying the outcomes of holding stifle? I know experience know this by feel but I think it could still be really useful. Obviously we can not do this precisely but what does everyone think?
There's no real way to calculate the possible ups and downs of keeping stifle live turn 1. The best way to look at it is that while it may hit their fetch if they don't fetch what's the outcome. Some of the basics rules of thumb I consider are as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alix444
Don't hold stifle up if you only have 1 colored land
Don't hold stifle up if you have delver in hand with a way to protect it (even without a way of protecting it playing it out turn 1 is still right I think)
Don't hold stifle up turn 2 over playing out a goyf if it's your only threat in hand. We have to get our feet on the ground sometime and if we have to play goyf it's still better turn 2 than 3 as the game is going to go longer and thus in their favor.
Like I said in an earlier post gaining tempo off of stifling a fetch is only helping us if we have pressure. This is akin to how in a lot of Jacob Wilson's videos he makes the comment that "if they wasteland me here I'm fine because I have a threat out and they don't" or something along those lines. The point is if the opponent wastelands you and you have lets say 2 duals a delver/goose and they then have 1 dual then it's definitely in our favor. They're forfeiting their land drop to slightly hinder our mana even though we can operate on one mana and it doesn't help them deal with our threat. Despite them being behind 2 land drops because of the stifle if they have more lands it doesn't matter. I mean I guess I might just be down playing stifle's value turn 1 because it hasn't helped me in years. There's a number of deck types that either have really good turn 1 plays that make holding up stifle bad or having a threat is more important:
Jund, bug delver, shardless bug all have deathrite to play turn 1 and if they don't have a fetch it's horrible for us
D&T well we might as well have punted seeing as they will just play out vial pass same with merfolk
Miracles has enough lands and answers to our threats the game will go very long. We need to get a threat out asap and our mana denial isn't even that good against them.
Combo has many turn 1 plays that invalidate this probe/duress (storm), island followed by ponder (SnT).
I'm not saying it's bad it's just very high risk high reward. It can either end great with us playing out a threat turn 2 followed by a wasteland turn 3 or they can play bayou deathrite go. We could hold up stifle and just see island top go. I will point out if you're doing well in a legacy tournament lets say round 3 and you're 2-0 any other people that are doing well will probably have scouted you. If the other people know how to play against stifle then holding it up is just really bad. They will immediately play out any duals/basics first and then we just wasted time. I tend to be a pessimist in general, so this might just be my opinion/conditioning because of my LGS with everyone knowing I play stifle. It's just do you consider holding up stifle turn 1 better than playing out a threat/pondering to find a threat if we don't have one. If you do think holding up stifle is better than any of the scenarios I listed above are just par for the course of how things can go sideways real fast if we take that line of play.
I can see what you are advocating, and I do agree it is similar to getting wasted with a delver in play. Going through old posts of this thread I have seen a lot of discussion of the 7/8 bolt builds. It seems pretty strong and I will be testing 54 + 4 Chain Lightning + 2 Spell Pierce. I'm planning on doming people with unused mana and burn. I'm also learning this deck in general so I doubt I will have any new news.
Ok so I was gold fishing and wanted to get some advice. Say I'm on the play and our opening hand is: Delver, Volcanic, Stifle, Force of Will, Lightning Bolt, Brainstorm, and Wasteland. We open with Volcanic into Delver our ideal T1, if our opponent plays a one mana removal we are basically always forcing it right? As for what to remove I am really conflicted if my opponent is playing a decent number of fetches.
Played in my third Legacy 8-man today at my LGS. I am still playing Daniel Olivieri's list from the Legacy Open at SCG Atlanta. I went 3-0 again beating MUD, Lands, and Death & Taxes.
Round 1: MUD (2-0)
Game 1: I get two Delvers going. I Daze my opponent's Grim Monolith, Waste his Cloudpoast, and Force his Metalworker. Delvers get there.
Game 2: My opponent gets Chalice of the Void on 1 on T1. I land two Goyfs. I Daze his Lodestone Golem and Daze his Kudoltha Forgemaster. Goyfs get there.
Round 2: Lands (2-1)
Game 1: I get two early Delvers. He gets Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows going and gets rid of my Delvers. I land a Goyf and a Goose and have lethal on board. He Intuitions for Glacial Chasm. I Brainstorm into a Wasteland and swing for the win.
Game 2: My opponent gets Chalice of the Void on 1 on T1 and eventually gets Crucible of the Worlds/Wasteland going. I concede the game with 2x Delver, 2x Nimble Mongoose, 2x Brainstorm, 1x Ponder, and 1x Gitaxian Probe in my hand and no lands in play.
Game 3: T1 I Force his Chalice. T2 I play Goyf. He Gambles for another Chalice but discards it. T3 I play TNN. My opponent scoops.
Round 3: Death & Taxes (2-0)
Game 1: I Forked Bolt his Mother of Runes. I play Delver and Daze his Thalia. He tries to Plow my Delver on his Turn 3. I Force it. He tries to Plow my Delver again on Turn 4. It resolves. But I Brainstorm into a Goyf and a Goose. He gets another Thalia down, but I pay two to bolt it. Goyf and Goose get there.
Game 2: More of the same.
I have been playing Legacy for a little less than a month. I have gone 8-1 and have won $100 in store credit. I am still amazed at how amazing Legacy is.
Hey guys! Daniel here with a 8-man local tournament report!
List is standard 54 with the following flex slots.
2 Chain Lightning
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Gitaxian Probe
Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Flusterstorm
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
Match 1: Miracles (RiP/Helm)
Game 1
I win the die roll, and play a turn 1 Delver. Delver gets swords'd and I play a Gitaxian Probe and see double counterbalance with force backup. I play a Tarmogoyf, and it gets forced pitching a CB. I don't fight over it because I'm scared of the other CB lock. Eventually, I counter the second Counterbalance, and Spell Snare a RiP while goose gets there.
Sideboard
-2 Chain Lightning
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Tarmogoyf
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Sulfuric Vortex
+1 Sulfur Elemental
+1 True-Name Nemesis
Game 2
He mulls to 6. My opening hand is Goose, Delver, Krosan Grip, Wasteland, Fetch, Fetch, Fetch. Turn 1 he Enlightened Tutor getting a Top, after fetching a plains. He spins top for 2 turns and doesn't play any more lands. Smelling blood, I Krosan Grip the top, locking him out. Goose makes short work of him after.
Match 2: Burn (RW, with RiP in the board)
Game 1
I get there fast with a turn 1 Delver. I end the game at 5 life.
Sideboard
-2 Chain Lightning (This is one of those matchups where Forked Bolt is better)
-1 Stifle
-1 Gitaxian Probe
+2 Rough // Tumble (I HAVE to kill the Eidelon of the Great Revel)
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Krosan Grip (for Eidelon and Sulfuric Vortex)
Game 2
3 Eidelons throughout the game really screws me. Even with my heads up play against Price of Progress with 3 duals and a wastland in play of: Bolt you, hold priority, daze the bolt, pay for it, waste my own land, take 2. I can't get enough creatures on board not to get blown out by a Swiftspear + bolt, so I durdle too long and die.
Game 3
I stifle a rift bolt, and Mongoose starts beating. I'm able to get him down to 5, and he plays a sulfuric vortex, which resolves. He plays a Ensnaring Bridge and I spell pierce it. I Stifle the Vortex trigger on my turn, Mongoose takes him down to 2, and his own Vortex kills him.
Match 3 4-Color Land Destruction (No Red)
Game 1
I lose the die roll. He goes turn 1 Delta -> U. Sea -> Ponder. I play a Volcanic and pass, holding up Stifle. Turn 2 he plays another Sea. At this point I'm thinking Storm. I Wasteland him and it gets Stifle'd. BUG Delver maybe!?. Next turn he plays a Bayou and casts Life from the Loam. I'm confused at this point. Then the next turn, he plays a Sinkhole, and I Daze it. I only have my 1 Volcanic, and I spend the next few turns protecting it. Eventually, he gets a wasteland -> Loam online and I scoop after 2 Baleful strix are beating down and I've had no lands for 3 turns. During the game, I saw Top, Jace, and Abrupt Decay.
-2 Force of Will
-2 Chain Lightning
+2 Pyroblast
+1 True Name-Nemesis
+1 Sulfuric Vortex
Game 2
My Stifle/Wastelands are better than his this game. I get Mongoose online and play the you-can't-have-any-lands game. At one point he has 2 Lands, a Delta, and a Top in play. I play a Pithing Needle, and he spins top. Then he says ok. I thought about it for a second, and thought that he was afraid I would name Delta if he drew off Top. I try to next-level and name Delta. It works, and he does nothing for the next few turns with Goose beating down for 1. He plays a Mishra's factory and attempts to block/pump a thresh'd Mongoose. Summoning sickness makes him lose his factory after a judge call. Mongoose gets there.
Game 3
I'm nervous about getting to 3 lands on the draw, but I decide True-Name and Vortex are too good against Decay/Durdle. I slam a turn 3 vortex after protecting my lands with Stifle. I get a Goose down and I'm quickly winning the race. I Spell Snare a Snapcaster and get in for lethal.
Finished 1st after the other top 4 didn't want to play it out.
Overall, I was happy with how the deck played. I put Zuran Orb back in my board because of how close the burn matchup was. Eidelon is the real deal, and if my burn opponent knew the format better, he would have won. I cut True-Name even though I didn't want to. I might put him back in instead of the 3rd Pyroblast, as I don't totally comfortable with only being able to answer a True-Name on the stack. But Pyroblast is so good... GAH.
I think Treasure Cruise's banning made the format worse for us, but we're still strong. Anyway, keep the Goose loose, and live the RUG Delver dream.
Hey Daniel, thanks for the tournament report. It was much more interesting than mine. I just started playing Legacy a month ago. And your sideboard guide really helped me get into the format. So super big two thumbs up thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slide
Can someone provide their experience on something like this? I get very little opportunities to play legacy and gold fishing is sometimes all I get to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alix444
The main idea with the 8 bolt list came up when TNN was really popular (which it still is but not as much). The idea is that you would just up and over TNN. Basically the math works out that everyone's life total in legacy is 18 based off of either fetches or force. Fortunately 18 works out to 6 bolts or hits with any of our creatures. With 8 bolts + 12 creatures = 20 bolts total and you're essentially running UR delver... with better creatures... and mana denial... just a better UR delver build lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alix444
So with the hand you said there's a few different things to look at:
Delver, Volcanic, Stifle, Force of Will, Lightning Bolt, Brainstorm, and Wasteland
Ok to be perfectly honest this is just a tough decision and for the most part I would probably just play too conservatively and pitch stifle. On the other hand stifle + wasteland is a powerful combination so pitching brainstorm is reasonable to. There are a few specific decks that I think pitching one over the other might be right or at least have different ways the game would play out.
If the opponent goes flooded strand plains swords they're on miracles which means the game will probably go long. Pitching brainstorm and holding stifle to deal with terminus is reasonable, but they'll probably have a different removal before that. Another opinion would be that they have snapcaster, Vendilion clique, 2-3 more swords and 3-4 terminuses so delver might not get there even with stifle for terminus and saving brainstorm to find trop + threat is another possibility.
Now let's say the opponent goes delta/misty fetch sea/bayou disfigure. This means they're definitely on BUG delver which pitching brainstorm I think would be the best choice. We're going to waste them turn 2 and on top of that we have stifle for an additional fetch. This means they won't get to decay until turn 4 hopefully which will give us plenty of time to draw into more steam. The downside here is if they have force for our stifle and have decay.
If they're on Jund based off of catacomb into badlands then I would probably pitch brainstorm. Again they're a fair deck that has deathrite, decay and goyf. Much like BUG delver our best bet against these decks is to out tempo letting stifle and wasteland get us some free wins. Another key thing here is since they're jund they won't have counter magic g1 meaning if they have another fetch after our waste our stifle will hit gold no questions asked unlike against BUG delver.
The other scenario is they go flooded strand into tundra they could be UWR delver, Esperblade or deathblade. Pretty much all of these decks have some scary high end stuff... well they have TNN lol. So again it comes down to do we want to roll the dice and hope wasteland + stifle gets there or be more conservative and keep brainstorm to dig for more threats.
Both options are right it's just specific matches like BUG delver or JUND it might be better to keep stifle. We just can't interact with abrupt decay so keeping them from getting to the mana is our best bet. Now against miracles pitching stifle might be better because of how many outs they have. I wouldn't say one choice is better than the other they just have differnet advantages and disadvantages based on the match up.
If you're sitting on a single colored land, Delver and Stifle and you go the Delver route and they wasteland your single land you're going to lose most of the time. I guess it depends on what else you have in your hand but Delver, Stifle and Daze or Pierce is not protection for your Delver if they waste your only island on turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
What do you do when you open up fetch, Delver, Stifle, Daze, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt and another threat on the play? Is that a keep or a toss back and if you keep it do you hold up Stifle to allow you to resolve Brainstorm on opponent's EoT to dig for land?
Except if the opponent probed you and saw you have no other land, turn 1 Wasteland is a really bad play from your opponent, if he/she is already facing your Delver. Sometimes you may lose due to this bad play, but sometimes your opponent just gave you a free Time Walk.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Let's play the reverse game, you are on the draw with this hand: Fetch, Wasteland, Daze, Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm, Stifle. Your opponent starts with Fetch>Volcanic>Delver>Go! Now it is your turn, would you waste your opponent's land?
Assuming I have no idea what deck opponent is playing, I would keep this hand and play Delver on turn 1 after fetching a Volcanic Island. Depending on my opponent turn 1 play, I could Daze it and then keep Stifle/Bolt mana up.Quote:
What do you do when you open up fetch, Delver, Stifle, Daze, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt and another threat on the play? Is that a keep or a toss back and if you keep it do you hold up Stifle to allow you to resolve Brainstorm on opponent's EoT to dig for land?
By the way, Brainstorm on opponent's EoT is not a good play. I don't even think you should be desperate at digging a second land, the proposed hand has interaction for a couple of turns and you can wait and see if you naturally draw a second mana source. However, if after a few turns your opponent managed to get rid of your Delver, your only other threat is green and you still haven't found your second land, you may want to use your Brainstorm to find it. But, you should do it during your main phase, since you will see one more card this way.