[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

This might seem like left field, but is there any reason we can't play Counterbalance SB? I've converted my build from the Hymns and Lily's to the Stifle/Pierce plan, and have yet to try it. Going to the Stifle package makes UU easy to cast Counterbalance, and the deck runs 21 1cc and 13 2cc, making blind counters pretty reasonable against burn, UR, mirror, etc. I've always like TA's sideboard flexibility, so I'm not too keen on swapping out 3-5 cards for Counterbalance/Top, but thought I'd ask if it's every been tried.

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Originally Posted by Fallacy

This might seem like left field, but is there any reason we can't play Counterbalance SB? I've converted my build from the Hymns and Lily's to the Stifle/Pierce plan, and have yet to try it. Going to the Stifle package makes UU easy to cast Counterbalance, and the deck runs 21 1cc and 13 2cc, making blind counters pretty reasonable against burn, UR, mirror, etc. I've always like TA's sideboard flexibility, so I'm not too keen on swapping out 3-5 cards for Counterbalance/Top, but thought I'd ask if it's every been tried.

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It's perfectly fine to consider it. You can do 1 SDT main, 1 side and then 2-3 CBalance SB. Or 2-3 SDT side. With all of the cantrips this deck runs, you probably don't need to run the full playset of either card. This is an old strategy back from one of the original iterations of Canadian Thresh, there's no reason a BUG list can't incorporate it.

Also, despite the relatively "weak" showing at GP Jersey, TA is hardly dead. And actually if you look beyond the top 16, BUG decks performed relatively well. The field will adapt to beat UR/UWr Delver decks. Versus Chalice-style decks and MUD, having access to DRS and Abrupt decay is huge. TA might not be the best list to take advantage of TCruise, but this doesn't make it weak. The deck just needs to make some adjustments to the main/SB. I'd consider running some sort of sweeper (or two) in the maindeck given the prevalence of X/1 creatures -- Golgari Charm(s) perhaps?

How far down did you see TA rankings? I was looking at some of the deck lists today (#16 and some of the GPT's), but couldn't find lists too deep into the rankings. Do you have a link?

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Originally Posted by Fallacy

How far down did you see TA rankings? I was looking at some of the deck lists today (#16 and some of the GPT's), but couldn't find lists too deep into the rankings. Do you have a link?

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Sultai Delver

16th place, you have to keep in mind the bad new Khans names.

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Originally Posted by Fallacy

This might seem like left field, but is there any reason we can't play Counterbalance SB? I've converted my build from the Hymns and Lily's to the Stifle/Pierce plan, and have yet to try it. Going to the Stifle package makes UU easy to cast Counterbalance, and the deck runs 21 1cc and 13 2cc, making blind counters pretty reasonable against burn, UR, mirror, etc. I've always like TA's sideboard flexibility, so I'm not too keen on swapping out 3-5 cards for Counterbalance/Top, but thought I'd ask if it's every been tried.

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Don't fuckin' go there man. I may not climb back up from that hole...

Some thoughts after the GP results:

UR delver is good but beatable.
Stoneforge mystic is the card that beats it.
Miracles is still good.
Liliana just can't keep up with treasure cruise. :cry:
Sudden shock is a card. :laugh:

So my takeaways from this would be that Thoughtseize is good again since it lines up well against Stoneforge mystic and Jeskai decks. I also think some number of Krosan Grip in the board will be necessary going forward since the meta will shift towards to UWR. In all this, Dimir charm still seems good since it kills stone forge, counter's treasure cruise and miracles.

My biggest takeaway from the GP results is that Stoneforge Mystic, a creature that has always given BUG trouble, is now the hottest creature in the meta. Young Pyromancer we can deal with but it stretches us further in directions we're already overstretched in as it is.

I think BUG has seen it's day. It's like a more consistent version of Jund right now but lacking some of the overwhelming tools (PFire, BBE) that Jund has to make up for the lack of early consistency.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Nice, a fellow traveler! :smile: :cool:

I wouldn't call Dimir Charm a mistake. It's a matter of choice.
There's a few things I don't like about it:
1. It's a tad expensive: I need two Duals to cast it (not counting Deathrite, since he usually dies). Keeping two open to use its counter ability is hard.
2. It doesn't hit quite a few important guys: flipped Delver, Goyf, Clique, Batterskull token.

I opted to make sure I never run the risk of having cards stuck in my hand other than Cruise.
That's why all the BB cost cards have gone, and putting a similar card back in felt wrong.
So these are the reasons why I decided not to run it. It's still a solid card though. Versatile.

Snare might be a solid choice, even for the main deck.
I would love to try it. There were many CMC2 cards that are annoying.

What does your sideboard look like?

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Those are precisely the reasons why I wish I didn't end up using it. I guess I should have ran more gauntlets with the deck to realize that. It's just too expensive, as versatile as it is.

My sideboard currently looks like this:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
2 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Snare
1 Darkblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

I was using Misdirection over Krosan Grip and another Surgical over Sylvan Library for the GP. The situations where Misdirection was relevant (like against the mirror or UG Infect) I'd have preferred it was a Divert but ultimately the misdirect effect didn't feel as powerful as I anticipated. I cut the idea entirely in favor of more Stoneblade assistance with Krosan Grip. Surgical was great, but didn't really need more than one at all, especially in conjunction with Cages, so I opted for more help in the mirror/miracles/grindy matchups in the form of Sylvan Library. I'm pretty sure Library is a standard sideboard choice at this point, I'm unsure of why I didn't use it.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

My biggest takeaway from the GP results is that Stoneforge Mystic, a creature that has always given BUG trouble, is now the hottest creature in the meta. Young Pyromancer we can deal with but it stretches us further in directions we're alreardy overstretched in as it is.

I think BUG has seen it's day. It's like a more consistent version of Jund right now but lacking some of the overwhelming tools (PFire, BBE) that Jund has to make up for the lack of early consistency.

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Maybe we have different definitions of "trouble", but "is sometimes irritating" isn't mine. SFM a popular card to be sure, but Grip in the board (which was probably optimal anyway) and Thoughtseize or Stifle main make it pretty bad. If you're that concerned about UWx Blade, run two Grips or a Grip and a Trygon Predator. Our days of being the format's undisputed best deck may be over, but to pretend we're not still a contender is just silly and flies in the face of evidence.

Hilariously, after all the "Shardless is dead" talk, a UR Delver vs. UWx Blade metagame is pretty welcoming for BUG Cascade.

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Originally Posted by Blackened

Those are precisely the reasons why I wish I didn't end up using it. I guess I should have ran more gauntlets with the deck to realize that. It's just too expensive, as versatile as it is.

My sideboard currently looks like this:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
2 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Snare
1 Darkblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

I was using Misdirection over Krosan Grip and another Surgical over Sylvan Library for the GP. The situations where Misdirection was relevant (like against the mirror or UG Infect) I'd have preferred it was a Divert but ultimately the misdirect effect didn't feel as powerful as I anticipated. I cut the idea entirely in favor of more Stoneblade assistance with Krosan Grip. Surgical was great, but didn't really need more than one at all, especially in conjunction with Cages, so I opted for more help in the mirror/miracles/grindy matchups in the form of Sylvan Library. I'm pretty sure Library is a standard sideboard choice at this point, I'm unsure of why I didn't use it.

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Nice!

I anticipated a lot of Miracles and UWR DelverBlade, plus some Elves and combo, so my 15 were:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce (other three main)
1 Darkblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendlilion Clique /15

So that's quite similar, only -1 Peedle, +1 Grip, and I chose to play more counterspells. Combo is a big thing here in the Netherlands. :cool: By the way, Sylvan is way too good to cut. I board it in sooo much! Excellent for replacing 1-2 Cruises when you anticipate grave hosers.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Maybe we have different definitions of "trouble", but "is sometimes irritating" isn't mine. SFM a popular card to be sure, but Grip in the board (which was probably optimal anyway) and Thoughtseize or Stifle main make it pretty bad. If you're that concerned about UWx Blade, run two Grips or a Grip and a Trygon Predator. Our days of being the format's undisputed best deck may be over, but to pretend we're not still a contender is just silly and flies in the face of evidence.

Hilariously,

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The definition of past prime is when you're just a contender. UWR Stoneblade/Delver is a better list right now and markedly so. Miracles is a better list and again it's not really close.

I don't see BUG's decline as particularly bad. We're in about the same place RUG Canadian is in. The difference is that RUG Canadian was obviously there at the start of the GP so very few people played it.

Think about what the Treasure Cruise meta did. It promoted hasty creatures and lowered the value of the cards people had in hand in the process. It made discard less valuable overall. It made red more valuable in the overall meta and black much less valuable. Then inside of that it gave people disincentives to use assets other than Treasure Cruise that depended on the graveyard.

Another way to look at the Treasure Cruise meta is that it made graveyards valuable to all blue lists, not just the lists like RUG and BUG that were going to use them for well-defined but narrow purposes. Not surprisingly this created much more value in other blue lists while providing only marginally more value in BUG and virtually no value in RUG.

BUG is in decline because other lists are on the rise. That's just the way it works. Sticking with a good list as others rise is fine. You do need to find a way to adjust some or it's going to hurt.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Maybe we have different definitions of "trouble", but "is sometimes irritating" isn't mine. SFM a popular card to be sure, but Grip in the board (which was probably optimal anyway) and Thoughtseize or Stifle main make it pretty bad. If you're that concerned about UWx Blade, run two Grips or a Grip and a Trygon Predator. Our days of being the format's undisputed best deck may be over, but to pretend we're not still a contender is just silly and flies in the face of evidence.

Hilariously, after all the "Shardless is dead" talk, a UR Delver vs. UWx Blade metagame is pretty welcoming for BUG Cascade.

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I agree completely.

I like the Thoughtseize suite versus UWR-blade decks, and we have loads of removal (2-3 Disfigure, Darkblast, 4 AD, 1-2 Clique being a virtual removal) to deal with creatures. I'm adding 1 more Kgrip, totaling 2 to my SB to help on the blade or Miracles MU's. I also upped my Clique count to 2, again to deal with the previously mentioned MU's.

I don't necessarily mind that there will be fewer BUG decks, as it could make it less expected.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The definition of past prime is when you're just a contender.

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In what way is 16th place in a gigantor tourney past its prime? We just need to adapt. Stifle seems good again. Krosan Grip into the board as at least a one off.

As an aside. Convince me that Sylvan Library belongs in the board. I just don't see it as necessary with treasure cruise. I am more than welcome to being wrong.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

My biggest takeaway from the GP results is that Stoneforge Mystic, a creature that has always given BUG trouble, is now the hottest creature in the meta. Young Pyromancer we can deal with but it stretches us further in directions we're already overstretched in as it is.

I think BUG has seen it's day. It's like a more consistent version of Jund right now but lacking some of the overwhelming tools (PFire, BBE) that Jund has to make up for the lack of early consistency.

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Just a quick snapshot: http://www.tcdecks.net/formato.php?format=Legacy

It's not news with UR, Miracles, and Patriot doing well, but if you look you'll see Sultai Delver at #4 in November for top finishes. I think we're just fine. Looking at all of those Sultai decks, it seems you can't go too wrong, because you'll see MB Stifle, TS, Pierces, Disfigures, and Dimir charms... all of varying quantities. That's great to see, because if it was only one list that was doing well then we'd all be playing it. Seems like you can really play to your meta or preference.

On an aside, is Flusterstorm worth and 1 or 2-of in an unknown meta (in SB obviously)? I don't own any, and have done OK with Pierces, but curious what others think. Seems Flusterstorm is a 1 or 2-of in a lot of these lists, unless the New Jersey area is known for combo/storm?

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The definition of past prime is when you're just a contender. UWR Stoneblade/Delver is a better list right now and markedly so. Miracles is a better list and again it's not really close.

I don't see BUG's decline as particularly bad. We're in about the same place RUG Canadian is in. The difference is that RUG Canadian was obviously there at the start of the GP so very few people played it.

Think about what the Treasure Cruise meta did. It promoted hasty creatures and lowered the value of the cards people had in hand in the process. It made discard less valuable overall. It made red more valuable in the overall meta and black much less valuable. Then inside of that it gave people disincentives to use assets other than Treasure Cruise that depended on the graveyard.

Another way to look at the Treasure Cruise meta is that it made graveyards valuable to all blue lists, not just the lists like RUG and BUG that were going to use them for well-defined but narrow purposes. Not surprisingly this created much more value in other blue lists while providing only marginally more value in BUG and virtually no value in RUG.

BUG is in decline because other lists are on the rise. That's just the way it works. Sticking with a good list as others rise is fine. You do need to find a way to adjust some or it's going to hurt.

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Reading this, I can't help but think that you haven't either played in a large event recently or that your playtesting is somehow skewed. UR is favorable because they struggle against Goyf and multiple Wastelands and get wrecked by Golgari Charm and Disfigure postboard. They may get to Cruise more, but our Cruises are objectively more powerful. Miracles has, if anything, become an even better matchup for BUG post-Cruise. Seriously; if you're consistently losing to Miracles, you're doing something wrong or playing against a massive skill differential.

If the deck wasn't well positioned, I'd say it's time to pack it in and pick up something else. It isn't that time yet.

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Originally Posted by Thorhammer

In what way is 16th place in a gigantor tourney past its prime? We just need to adapt. Stifle seems good again. Krosan Grip into the board as at least a one off.

As an aside. Convince me that Sylvan Library belongs in the board. I just don't see it as necessary with treasure cruise. I am more than welcome to being wrong.

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Sylvan is excellent against any control/midrange strategy, especially against decks like Miracles and UWx Blade that don't put much pressure on your life total. I've had a lot of success using it in the mirror and against Sneak and Show as well.

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Originally Posted by Fallacy

Just a quick snapshot: http://www.tcdecks.net/formato.php?format=Legacy

It's not news with UR, Miracles, and Patriot doing well, but if you look you'll see Sultai Delver at #4 in November for top finishes. I think we're just fine. Looking at all of those Sultai decks, it seems you can't go too wrong, because you'll see MB Stifle, TS, Pierces, Disfigures, and Dimir charms... all of varying quantities. That's great to see, because if it was only one list that was doing well then we'd all be playing it. Seems like you can really play to your meta or preference.

On an aside, is Flusterstorm worth and 1 or 2-of in an unknown meta (in SB obviously)? I don't own any, and have done OK with Pierces, but curious what others think. Seems Flusterstorm is a 1 or 2-of in a lot of these lists, unless the New Jersey area is known for combo/storm?

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One last point on the shifted meta: UR Delver has moved a lot of people onto it because it's the best deck at casting Treasure Cruise - look at the number of UR Delver tops vs. Miracles (the second highest-placing deck) - it's 27 vs. 14, with UWR Delver and BUG Delver at 10 each. A non-trivial component in the apparent fall-off in BUG is people trying out the new deck rather than this one being bad. At SCG Columbus, the few BUG players who showed up were disproportionately present at the top tables through round 8. I can't comment on round 9 because I was in an off-camera feature match and couldn't see anyone but my opponent, but there were two other BUG Delver players just in my group who both finished in the top 64 (I think one was 20-something and one was 33).

I'm still not a huge Flusterstorm fan because it can't hit things like Blood Moon, although we're seeing less of that. It's just such a beating that being able to counter it is a high priority. Pierce is just broader, so I'm going to stick with it. Hitting things like hardcast Batterskulls and Jittes is becoming more important as well.

Just wanted to chime in to reinforce the points being made that BUG is far from being a suboptimal choice in the new metagame. Things have shifted a bit, but it's nothing we can't adapt to.

At the GP, I punted all weekend, sad to say. On Friday, I punted my round-of-8 match in a grinder, and on Saturday, I punted early on and was dead for Day 2 by round 6. At the Sunday Super Series, I tightened up a bit, but still only went 7-3, which was good for Top 64, but one of my losses was definitely due to my own errors. Overall, I really liked the deck and how it plays. I'm pretty sure I was just having a bad weekend, and I don't see any reason to bail on the deck.

My lists at the GP and the Super Series were somewhat nonstandard. At the GP, I ran:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Dig Through Time
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Sideboard:
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hydroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique

The wonky countermagic suite worked out fantastically, actually. Daze is dead really fast now for reasons which have been explained many times before, so I cut a couple and replaced them with slightly harder countermagic. As phazonmutant suggested, 2 Daze was actually just fine. I was happy many times to have access to the effect, and it didn't clog up my draws nearly as much in the late game. 3 Spell Pierce was really good, but a little heavy-handed from a metagaming perspective, as it makes the creature-heavy matchups a bit awkward. I want to give a special shoutout to the singleton Counterspell, which saved my ass countless times over the weekend. It does the usual BUG thing of trading mana efficiency for flexibility. It accomplished what I imagine Pyroblast accomplishes in the other Delver decks, but is just randomly relevant in other ways a lot of the time. If you haven't tried it out, you should.

Shaving a Wasteland was good - there are just too many decks running too many basics right now. Just like Daze, the effect can be powerful, but also like Daze, it does cause you to effectively miss your land drop, which is really a drawback because you want to cast the stuff you Cruise for ASAP.

I got cold feet about Tarmogoyf in Delve mirrors due to chatter from the pros online, which is why I ran the 3/2 split. That was a mistake. Besides Goyf being more or less the same size as before TC, costing 2 instead of 3 is a huge advantage. To be clear, TNN is a great, difficult-to-remove threat in a world of grindy Stoneblade decks, and I definitely want access to at least one, but shaving Goyf is not the way to go about adding a second one.

DTT and Golgari Charm were consistently underwhelming. I just never had enough time to take advantage of DTT, even in the slow combo matchups. As for Golgari Charm, I ran it maindeck because I figured it would have the potential to do something meaningful in most matchups, and it was well positioned versus YP Elemental tokens. This was mostly true, but it's impact was definitely not worth an entire card against most of the non-red, non-tribal decks. I think it taught me that I sideboard it in too often in general.

At the Super Series, my friend insisted I give Dimir Charm, which I have never been happy with, another chance, so I made the following changes to the maindeck:

+1 Preordain
+1 Dimir Charm
+1 Treasure Cruise
+1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Golgari Charm
-1 Dig Through Time
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 True-Name-Nemesis

and I left the sideboard the same. The Preordain was there just to try it out since one of the matches I played in the GP was against the mirror, and he had a Preordain that he said was alright for him. As advertised, it was fine, nothing special. I imagine there can be stronger choices, though, and I obviously didn't play enough matches to really decide if 9 versus 8 cantrips is right. Dimir Charm was much the same way: pretty mediocre. Definitely more impactful, more often than Golgari Charm, but I was still not super happy with it.

Anyway, going forward, I feel like the deck is still solid up to the last few cards. I would run this list back but try some other stuff in the place of the 1 Preordain, 1 Disfigure, and 1 Dimir Charm. Still no idea what kind of effects the deck needs the most.

As for the sideboard, everything was awesome except for the Pithing Needle and the Surgical Extraction. Both felt a little underpowered, even though they were generally useful. Perhaps the Needle should just be the second Grip in a world where Stoneforge Mystic is super-popular, and the Surgical Extraction could be a Tormod's Crypt or maybe just some more removal.

I should mention that in 22 matches over 3 days, I never played against UR Delver even once. So all my metagaming worrying was kind of for naught.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Reading this, I can't help but think that you haven't either played in a large event recently or that your playtesting is somehow skewed. UR is favorable because they struggle against Goyf and multiple Wastelands and get wrecked by Golgari Charm and Disfigure postboard. They may get to Cruise more, but our Cruises are objectively more powerful.

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It's not UR Delver. We own UR Delver in a big way. It's UWR that is flatout better right now and they don't struggle against Goyf, they plow it, they don't struggle against Wastelands, they have basics in the mix. Miracles is not a hard matchup but it has a much better matchup against a lot of the format than we do.

I noticed in the month leading up to the GP that the lists giving me the most trouble were Elves and various Stoneblade builds. Elves was just too fast to beat game one and games two and three came down to how lucky I was with specific hate in hand and whether I had to mull aggressively. Overall it was an unfavored matchup.

Stoneblade was just a bad matchup. They had ubiquitous answers to all our threats and they also had targeted discard and counters to maintain control of the flow of play. Their threat base was better than ours also because they got 2-for-1 from Stoneforge Mystic, lack of interactivity with True-Name Nemesis and the equipment to make the lack of interactivity really dangerous. UWR Stoneblade is even stronger against us because they can still manage all our threats and they also have the reach of Lightning Bolts and the potential for main list Pyroblasts as well.

It's not that BUG Delver is bad right now. It's that other things are objectively better and that was not the case two months ago.

We got kicked down in the established deck`s section :cry:

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

We got kicked down in the established deck`s section :cry:

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Yeah, but I think it was an error. TA should be in DtB and Shardless BUG should be established (as Nihil Credo said in his analysis). He just missklicked I guess.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

It's not UR Delver. We own UR Delver in a big way. It's UWR that is flatout better right now and they don't struggle against Goyf, they plow it, they don't struggle against Wastelands, they have basics in the mix. Miracles is not a hard matchup but it has a much better matchup against a lot of the format than we do.

Stoneblade was just a bad matchup. They had ubiquitous answers to all our threats and they also had targeted discard and counters to maintain control of the flow of play. Their threat base was better than ours also because they got 2-for-1 from Stoneforge Mystic, lack of interactivity with True-Name Nemesis and the equipment to make the lack of interactivity really dangerous. UWR Stoneblade is even stronger against us because they can still manage all our threats and they also have the reach of Lightning Bolts and the potential for main list Pyroblasts as well.

It's not that BUG Delver is bad right now. It's that other things are objectively better and that was not the case two months ago.

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I'm not going to continue to argue this with you because my testing continues to produce results to the contrary. I may make changes to my list, and I'm certainly going to be playtesting some of the oddball decks from GPNJ (Landstill and Grixis Control both look like they're worth putting time into), but BUG Delver will remain my deck for large events until testing suggests that I'm substantially better served by playing something else.

The sheer quantity of UR Delver decks that people are playing right now should be reason enough to stick with BUG Delver; our close and maybe unfavorable matchup against Stoneblade can be addressed with proper sideboarding and just being better players than them. Feel free to stop playing the deck, but I find your analysis deeply flawed.

Moving on to some constructive topics about the deck :)

What do you guys think about going down to 18 land, seems pretty tight, especially since we pack 4 Wasteland? I saw Noah Cohen did, but most it seems are running 19 lands. btm10, seems like you've got a pretty good grasp on our updated deck, in your playtesting have you found 18 or 19 preferred? In the Columbus tourney, did you see a lot of Wasteland? Our mana curve certainly has lowered, as all my Lily's and SB Jace are adios, not to mention Tombstalkers, too.

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Originally Posted by Fallacy

Moving on to some constructive topics about the deck :)

What do you guys think about going down to 18 land, seems pretty tight, especially since we pack 4 Wasteland? I saw Noah Cohen did, but most it seems are running 19 lands. btm10, seems like you've got a pretty good grasp on our updated deck, in your playtesting have you found 18 or 19 preferred? In the Columbus tourney, did you see a lot of Wasteland? Our mana curve certainly has lowered, as all my Lily's and SB Jace are adios, not to mention Tombstalkers, too.

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I think I'm gonna try the 18 land build. With delver variants moving towards no wasteland I think it's worth it. I was already cutting down on lands in match ups like miracles so I think we can get away with it. Creeping Tar Pit in the board in case we come up against a wasteland deck.

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Originally Posted by Fallacy

Moving on to some constructive topics about the deck :)

What do you guys think about going down to 18 land, seems pretty tight, especially since we pack 4 Wasteland? I saw Noah Cohen did, but most it seems are running 19 lands. btm10, seems like you've got a pretty good grasp on our updated deck, in your playtesting have you found 18 or 19 preferred? In the Columbus tourney, did you see a lot of Wasteland? Our mana curve certainly has lowered, as all my Lily's and SB Jace are adios, not to mention Tombstalkers, too.

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I saw a lot of Wasteland because I played two Loam decks and two BUG mirrors. Aside from that, I didn't see much. I definitely hesitate to draw conclusions like "how much Wasteland do we expect?" from one person's tournament experience. My current list is the Columbus list, with the following (MD) changes:

-2 Hymn
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Dimir Charm
-1 Daze
-1 Bayou

+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Tropical Island
+1 True-Name Nemesis

I may bring the Bayou back and drop a Wasteland, and TNN and Thoughtseize #3 are both on probation for now.

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Originally Posted by Thorhammer

I think I'm gonna try the 18 land build. With delver variants moving towards no wasteland I think it's worth it. I was already cutting down on lands in match ups like miracles so I think we can get away with it. Creeping Tar Pit in the board in case we come up against a wasteland deck.

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Definitely post how you do. Against non-Legends Miracles I drop Wastelands a lot, but I leave 1-3 in against the Legend builds because Wastelanding Karakas is a big deal there. Against Miracles in particular, I don't usually have a problem casting even 3 or 4 mana spells off of 15-18 lands.

Sorry for the accidental demotion, everybody :) Moving threads back and forth is basically muscle memory at this point ("deck"-tab-tab-tab-"former "-tab-tab-Enter), so I didn't realise I had selected the wrong BUG thread. Fixed now.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

Sorry for the accidental demotion, everybody :) Moving threads back and forth is basically muscle memory at this point ("deck"-tab-tab-tab-"former "-tab-tab-Enter), so I didn't realise I had selected the wrong BUG thread. Fixed now.

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Oh LOL so we are still deck to beat! :cool:
I had sent Zilla a PM to tell him to demote the old thread as well, since it was still up in DTB while this one was already demoted. And it makes sense. People play UR and UWR Delver now mostly. But good to see we are back! :smile:

Back on topic: I don't believe in an 18 land list. With my 19 land list I already very often could not find a land, so I'm definitely not going down to 18. I'm not willing to mull even more than I did last tourney. Also, if you run 18 lands, I think you need Stifle to protect yourself. Canadian has run 18 lands forever, but always with Stifle helping out to protect against opposing Wastelands. Just my two cents. :wink:

Great to be in the DtB section again:smile:

I think in a Hymn/Lili version 20 lands are a must ( I had to learn that the hard way :wink:). No matter if we are playing 4 Ponder 4 Brainstorm 3 TC.

In a TS/Disfigure/Charm version I think 19 lands are absolutley fine, but going down to 18 is very risky. I we transform the deck into a "Canadian" version, then maybe yes but only with 3-4 stifles.

Greetings

I just discovered that Bert Phillips had a undefeated day 1 at the GP with this list:

Number Card Name
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm


Number Card Name
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island


Total Number of cards in main deck: 60
Sideboard

Number Card Name
1 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Flusterstorm

Number Card Name
1 Hydroblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sylvan Library

Total Number of cards in sideboard: 15

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iostream

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Dig Through Time
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

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My next build is this, but -1 Pierce, +1 Goyf, and probably cutting a Charm for a second Disfigure. Charm seems marginally worse against the X/2's. I was also looking at just playing 3 Digs instead of 4 Delve cards, but that's neither here nor there at this point. I also still want 4 Wastelands, I think.

Goyf is still good against UWR. It blocks well, and it's Swords or die to it. It's no TNN, but it stunts Batterskull almost as well. Making a 4/5 in front of it is generally good enough. You do have to be carefull of Bolts, but it's easy enough. It's also just a cheap threat, and that's important right now. Get on the board and attack them before they overpower you with 'Skulls, or manage to get hits in with Swords. Thoughtseize takes out Batterskull really well. Against UR, I like double Disfigure main. It kills everything very cheaply. Less Delve Spells means more early interaction, and Dig gives you the ability to stay open with Decays, and draw more useful interaction instead of crap later on.

Since Team has shifted away in some part from Hymns and Lily's, what are peoples takes on turn sequencing the early turns for Game 1 versus an unknown opponent? Assume we're on the play. Pre-Cruise era I would almost always run a DRS T1 if possible to T2 Hymn with 1 mana left for Delver/Thoughtseize or play Lily. Are people finding that running a DRS or Delver T1 is still best bet, or just play land and pass turn (ability to BS, Pierce, Disfigure, Stifle on opponents turn)?

Pre-Cruise era if I didn't have a DRS in my opener and had a Thoughtseize that would be my next auto first play to gain some info and possible card advantage. I'm wondering if we're better served to hold off on TS until T2+ in the event we're playing a blade deck, to allow them to search out the equipment? Although, holding off on a T1 TS could allow a multitude of cards to come down, like SDT...

I would like to expand this to both "main" deck variations, being 1) Thoughtseize plus a combination of Pierce/Disfigure, and 2) Stifle suite plus Pierce. For example, is it proper to play reactionary T1 with a Stifle, or still run out a DRS?

I haven't played enough games as of lately, so I'd be curious to see what others think. I do miss having 14-16 threats (typical 12 + 2 Tombstalker + 2 Lily's :smile:)...

On the play Delver, DRS or Ponder with Daze in hand, hold up with Stifle or Spell Pierce in hand, break the tie based on opponent if you somehow have the Merry Christmas draw with both options.

On the draw you have to play something if you have it. You're already behind in tempo and unless you know your opponent very well or you know he is on Storm or something you have to keep up with the Joneses.

Went 6-3 at GP Edison with the following list:

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 TNN

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Treasure Cruise

3 Daze
4 FOW
1 Spell Pierce

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize

9 Fetches
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

A brief summary of the rounds:

Round 1, Goblins (Win 2-1)

In the first game he had a slow start and I had removal and counters for his threats. Things got awkward when I dazed a Goblin Matron through his Cavern, but we both missed it until my next main phase had already started. Judge gave us both warnings, but he still lost the Matron, which was obviously good for me but I felt bad. He resolved a second matron, but was too far behind to catch up at that point. I'm pretty sure I had the game locked up either way, but he would have been much more in it if the first tutor resolved.

Game 2 he had vials and multiple ringleaders, but more importantly I walked right into a Pyrokenesis on both my threats (Delver/DRS) which put me way out of the game. In game 3, he tried the Pyro play again, but this time I had the Force, and he died a few turns later to Nemesis + Delver.

Round 2, Reanimator (Win 2-0)

This was probably the most fun match I had all day, and simultaneously the least fun for my opponent. In both games I drew early Thoughtseizes to strip away his discard outlets, leaving him with Reanimate spells and dudes only. I won pretty quickly in the first game before he could find much action. In game 2, I opened with a hand of all blue spells plus a single Trop, and after a moment's hesitation I kept it on the draw. Ponder found me the 2nd land, and I just sat there for several turns holding up countermagic. Eventually I found a Thoughtseize, and then a Grafdigger's Cage, and then another Seize, and finally a DRS to slowly eat away at his life total. He had Needle for DRS so I was simply attacking for one until I found one of the Decays I had left in the deck. Vendilion Clique locked it up, as he was just sitting on all Reanimate spells to my hand of triple Force + soft counters. He was visibly angry about his decks' performance and the loss, but man was I having a fun time underneath my unusually composed exterior.

Round 3, BURG Delver w/ Stifle (Lose 0-2)

Stifle is king in the mirror match, and all his threats and answers are cheaper than mine. Not having the 3rd Disfigure really hurt here, as did him getting Deathrite online before me every single time. I played into his Stifles more than once, but had little choice the last time. This match made me wish I was still playing Stifle myself, or at least Lightning Bolt, as both those cards really got him an edge. Had I drawn enough lands, I likely would have overpowered him with Nemesi/Goyfs and the unconditional Decays, but I could never get enough mana together to compete. I feel I partly punted this match, and if I could go back and play it out again I would love to see where my mistakes were. This was a critical loss.

Round 4, U/G Infect (Win 2-1)

While this guy wasn't Tom Ross, I was still very fearful of his deck. At first I felt good about the matchup, but I quickly realized that many of his threats blank my answers, and it's very easy for them to play through or around your interaction. Luckily, I remembered some of the rules of engagement with Infect from Modern, even if I didn't adhere to them always. I don't recall the games too specifically, but they were all close. I think I won the first one by running him out of threats and getting my own Delver online quickly enough to close it out. I don't really remember game 2 that much, but he got me. In game 3, I was pretty light on interaction, but he had a slowish start, so it was okay for awhile. I traded removal for his threats, and then I used my last FOW to stop his final creature from entering play, but he eventually drew into Nexi and started pinging me. I had a Delver and a TNN picking away at him, but he also drew into a Maze of Ith to keep my Delver at bay. I kept swinging, forcing him to use the Maze, and he kept giving me back a flying blocker while TNN got in for 3. Eventually, I drew a Wasteland and had 4 good targets: the 2 Inkmoths, the Maze, or his Trop. I wasted his Trop, forcing him out of colored mana, and cutting him off of Invigorate as well. Once I did that, there was little he could do, and TNN took him out a few turns later. I was pretty proud of my play in this match, but to be honest he had me pretty close to dead with any number of good draws on his end: I was out of gas quite early in that last game.

Round 5, RUG Delver w/ Goyf, Pyro, and Jitte maindeck (Lose 0-2)

Once again, I lost a mirror match, and Just like that, I'm on the bubble halfway through the day. I can't remember if he had Stifle as well, but it was more the maindeck Jittes and efficiency of Bolts that got me. While I felt somewhat powerless against the BURG deck, this match was probably very winnable if I played better. He mulled to 5 game 1 but I somehow let him still win (he had a good hand and successfully resolved a Cruise, but still). In game 2, it was my turn to mull to 5. I also pulled of a Treasure Cruise, but it didn't matter. But the time I recovered, he had an active Jitte, and it was lights out. Hell, he had the thing equipped to a damn lavamancer, and I couldn't find a Goyf. This was certainly a winnable matchup though, and I kicked myself for not finding a way to push it to Game 3. These matches taught me I need more experience in the mirror, especially since I'm a RUG veteran, and maximizing the efficiency of your cards is a bit easier in those colors for me.

Round 6, Belcher (Win 2-0)

This was a short and sweet match, not much to say. I drew Thoughtseizes and had the Force both time he tried to go for it, and it was elementary sweeping up from there. He could have made 8ish Goblins in game 2, but opted for Belcher instead, which was likely a mistake. But I was ready to mulligan into FoW and/or Flusterstorm pretty aggressively if it came to a Game 3, and there's not much they can do against a counter-heavy hand. That said, check out this guy's story from SCG LA a few years ago for a truly amazing tournament report from the mind of a Belcher pilot. Totally off-point, but man can this guy write. This is EPIC: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-A-long-Report

Round 7, UR Delver (Win 2-1)

Rounds start to get fuzzy here. Not to much interesting to say either. My opponent didn't seem very enthusiastic in general, and had an overall air of dismay and disinterest about him, which probably didn't help his chances in this fight. That said, I'm pretty sure we are favored against UR unless they are Expert-level or above with the deck, as the lines you need to make to win are very difficult sometimes. I simply answered his dudes and resolved lots of threats. In the last game, I kept a slightly awkward 6-card hand of something like Goyf, Goyf, Goyf, Ponder, Trop, Waste, but knew that it had a high chance to win if I could get past turn 2. Sure enough, I ended the game with 3 Goyfs in play while he scrambled for an answer. He had some threat-light draws, but I still think we can handle UR Delver just fine. I haven't dropped a match to the deck yet, though maybe I need to test against some seriously competitive players to really know how this should go.

Round 8, Jund (Lose 0-2, aka DEAD)

It all comes crumbling down. I had still been pretty hopeful I could sweep the last 4 rounds, but as always I knew I could face a bad matchup or bad draws. Sure enough, Jund just crushed me. I had some decent draws, but nothing to compare with Pfire, Liliana, Bloodbraid, or Rabblemaster, and to top it off he out Deathrited me in both games. It's possible I sideboarded wrong, as I tried to keep up with his threats by siding into moar removal and took out some number of Forces and other countermagic, when in fact maybe I should have just tried to tempo him out. Without Stifle, it's hard to truly cut off their mana long enough to win via flipped Delver or unanswered Goyf/TNN, but perhaps it was the better line. I don't think it much mattered though, his hands were good and he had plenty of lands and threats both games. Shame to go out this way, but such is life.

Round 9, Death and Taxes (Win 2-0)

I had removal and Forces for his critical cards, and was able to play around the cards that matter the most. In the second game, I had two flipped Delvers and a TNN to his pair of Flickerwisps, and then drew a Disfigure to outmatch his blocking force. He had flickered my first Delver, but I cast the second one and then Brainstormed back a spell to flip them both on my next turn, which was a pretty sweet play I thought. In any case, what I assume is normally a tough matchup went really well for me here, and I happily ended the day on a good note.

By this point it was damn near midnight, and we scrambled to gather the crew and find a bar/restaurant that still served both Booze and Food after 11PM. Thank god for Champps in the Menlo Park mall!

All in all, it was a good tournament, but I deeply regret letting those two matches slip away from me. That's obviously the difference in a big event like this, I just wish for once I could overcome variance and my own misplays to get past the curve and into the red zone. Still, I only had about 2 weeks to prepare for the event, and I hadn't played Legacy since long before True-Name was spoiled. Having to adapt to a DRS/Abrupt Decay Delver deck rather than my usual Bolts/Goose strategy was certainly a challenge, so I'm pretty satisfied with the 6-3 finish. Hopefully I can get enough PW points this year to actually gain a bye at the next GP I attend. And hopefully I continue to play Legacy now, as this format is just way too good and I really missed it. I still dig Modern, but it's just not the same as Legacy.

Card and deck discussion will have to wait for another day, but overall I was pretty happy with the list. There are a few things I might change based on what I actually played. Not having 3 Disfigure felt like a mistake, and I didn't end up ever drawing the Darkblast, but I also never played against Elves or Maverick where the cards truly shines. I also felt outgunned against decks that had access to Pyroblast, as that card really does win the Cruise/Counterspell battles. By the same token I never faced matchups where Decay was truly a trump, such as vs. Miracles or Stax/Tezzeret decks. To recap, my opponents were:

Goblins, Reaninate, Delver, Infect, Delver, Belcher, Delver, Jund, Death/Taxes

So pretty close to what I would expect. Buncha Delver decks, a couple combo players, and some random stuff. Notably absent were the control decks, but I was happy not to have to play against Stoneblade or Miracles at all. I'm pretty sure we're not favored against most Blade decks, while we might have a slight edge on Miracles, but it's really close in both cases and the matchups are extremely grindy and challenging. After BBD's finish, I think it's time I let go of my refusal to play Blade in Legacy and actually pick up a playset of Stoneforge Mystic. She was my favorite white card for awhile until they spoiled Batterskull, and I probably need a copy for EDH anyway, so might as well pick them up. Plus, BBD's deck looks awesome, and I am tempted to try it. Of Course, that would mean I need to get Tundras too....

In review, I think BUG Delver is fine right now, and there are plenty of ways to build it. I will likely try out the Stifle build again, as well as the builds that cracked top 16. Actually, my list was only about 8 cards off of Noah Coen's 16th-place list, and our maindecks are functionally nearly identical. So maybe I'll tune closer to his maindeck. I also might try out a slightly bigger version with the BB discards spells too, as those are pretty fun, and I've always LOVED Hymn to Tourach. Who cares if it's "bad" right now right? I'm also pretty tempted by BUG Shardless, as I think it might actually be better than everyone might have thought at first glance.

Of course, that means I need to get some Jaces.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

My next build is this, but -1 Pierce, +1 Goyf, and probably cutting a Charm for a second Disfigure. Charm seems marginally worse against the X/2's. I was also looking at just playing 3 Digs instead of 4 Delve cards, but that's neither here nor there at this point. I also still want 4 Wastelands, I think.

Goyf is still good against UWR. It blocks well, and it's Swords or die to it. It's no TNN, but it stunts Batterskull almost as well. Making a 4/5 in front of it is generally good enough. You do have to be carefull of Bolts, but it's easy enough. It's also just a cheap threat, and that's important right now. Get on the board and attack them before they overpower you with 'Skulls, or manage to get hits in with Swords. Thoughtseize takes out Batterskull really well. Against UR, I like double Disfigure main. It kills everything very cheaply. Less Delve Spells means more early interaction, and Dig gives you the ability to stay open with Decays, and draw more useful interaction instead of crap later on.

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Yeah, like I said in my writeup, 3 Goyf was a mistake. I want to reiterate, though, that I think cutting a Wasteland was quite good, and I'm surprised no one else seems to be interested in the idea. UR and BBD's deck play enough basics to neutralize it, and so do most of the popular combo choices now, and it doesn't synergize well with TC anyway. But I agree there are matchups where you want access to 4. I think putting the 4th Waste in the side could be good, especially since there were a couple slots in the side I was already unhappy with. Also, if the meta is starting to shift away from UR and Cruise Burn towards various blade decks and control decks, then TS in the main indeed sounds reasonable again. I would probably play the following if I had a tournament to go to this weekend:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure

2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 Wasteland
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hydroblast
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
2 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iostream

Yeah, like I said in my writeup, 3 Goyf was a mistake. I want to reiterate, though, that I think cutting a Wasteland was quite good, and I'm surprised no one else seems to be interested in the idea. UR and BBD's deck play enough basics to neutralize it, and so do most of the popular combo choices now, and it doesn't synergize well with TC anyway. But I agree there are matchups where you want access to 4. I think putting the 4th Waste in the side could be good, especially since there were a couple slots in the side I was already unhappy with. Also, if the meta is starting to shift away from UR and Cruise Burn towards various blade decks and control decks, then TS in the main indeed sounds reasonable again. I would probably play the following if I had a tournament to go to this weekend:

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Not sure how I feel about cutting a Wasteland. For starters, it's generally a 4-of in all the 3-color Delver decks, mostly because it helps protect yourself against opposing Wastelands and helps justify the otherwise fragile manabase. Running 3 just seems noncommittal to me, and I could only get behind the idea if we were in Jeskai with equipment or had similarly expensive haymakers to resolve lategame, like Jace/Lily or TNN. As it was though, my experience with TNN has been that he is great when you can cast him, but can often be a liability at 3 mana, thus I'd be pretty wary to increase my mana curve.

I actually feel Wasteland is getting better right now, rather than worse, and Tom Ross said the same thing in his post-GP article. With opposing Delver decks shaving down on lands to increase their threat density, and with Delver in general still being 30% of the field, I actually think it might be correct to go back to Stifles and run the full set of Wastes. Even if you aren't Stifling people, I found it was extremely valuable to draw Wasteland in multiple scenarios, and it definitely helped me win at least 2 or 3 games at the GP, most notably against my Infect opponent. I'm not sure why you'd want to cut such an integral part of the deck.

Also, Wasteland does have synergy with Treasure Cruise: it's basically a free spell similar to Gix Probe. You take away their land while making your Cruise cheaper. There were several times where I needed a Wasteland to either help set up my own Cruise since my hand was mostly reactive, or to turn on DRS and/or Tarmogoyf by adding land back to the GY pile.

I'm pretty convinced now is not the time to cut Wasteland in this format, unless you are going a different direction entirely than classic Delver Tempo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Borealis

Not sure how I feel about cutting a Wasteland. For starters, it's generally a 4-of in all the 3-color Delver decks, mostly because it helps protect yourself against opposing Wastelands and helps justify the otherwise fragile manabase. Running 3 just seems noncommittal to me, and I could only get behind the idea if we were in Jeskai with equipment or had similarly expensive haymakers to resolve lategame, like Jace/Lily or TNN. As it was though, my experience with TNN has been that he is great when you can cast him, but can often be a liability at 3 mana, thus I'd be pretty wary to increase my mana curve.

I actually feel Wasteland is getting better right now, rather than worse, and Tom Ross said the same thing in his post-GP article. With opposing Delver decks shaving down on lands to increase their threat density, and with Delver in general still being 30% of the field, I actually think it might be correct to go back to Stifles and run the full set of Wastes. Even if you aren't Stifling people, I found it was extremely valuable to draw Wasteland in multiple scenarios, and it definitely helped me win at least 2 or 3 games at the GP, most notably against my Infect opponent. I'm not sure why you'd want to cut such an integral part of the deck.

Also, Wasteland does have synergy with Treasure Cruise: it's basically a free spell similar to Gix Probe. You take away their land while making your Cruise cheaper. There were several times where I needed a Wasteland to either help set up my own Cruise since my hand was mostly reactive, or to turn on DRS and/or Tarmogoyf by adding land back to the GY pile.

I'm pretty convinced now is not the time to cut Wasteland in this format, unless you are going a different direction entirely than classic Delver Tempo.

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I think there are two main points where I seem to be disagreeing with the majority of people here, and perhaps it will be good to enumerate them explicitly:

1) Even though UR and BBD's version of UWR are running only 16 and 18 lands, respectively, they run basics, and if they are wise enough to fetch them early, our Wastelands are bad/dead. Furthermore, they are running *more* mana sources than Delver decks of old, not less - old-school RUG used to run only 14 mana sources, for instance. The extra slots they freed up for gas appeared because they cut *Wasteland*, not actual mana sources! This is another reason why I think Wasteland is worse - you have a much lower probability of actually mana screwing them because they have more actual lands to draw into than before.

2) Wasteland has weak synergy with TC because it forces you to miss your land drops. Wasteland was taken out of UR in part because you want to be able to Cruise and cast the stuff you draw *the same turn you draw it*. Wasteland does the opposite - it denies you your own land drop for the turn. The late-game haymaker you are referring to in your first paragraph, in my mind, is Cruise itself. By replacing your fourth Waste with another mana source, you have a higher likelihood of being able to use your Cruises more effectively.

I should reiterate that I understand that it's a powerful effect and worth running. I think it's just not an automatic 4-of like it used to be. We have more things we want to do with our mana now because of Cruise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iostream

I think there are two main points where I seem to be disagreeing with the majority of people here, and perhaps it will be good to enumerate them explicitly:

1) Even though UR and BBD's version of UWR are running only 16 and 18 lands, respectively, they run basics, and if they are wise enough to fetch them early, our Wastelands are bad/dead. Furthermore, they are running *more* mana sources than Delver decks of old, not less - old-school RUG used to run only 14 mana sources, for instance. The extra slots they freed up for gas appeared because they cut *Wasteland*, not actual mana sources! This is another reason why I think Wasteland is worse - you have a much lower probability of actually mana screwing them because they have more actual lands to draw into than before.

2) Wasteland has weak synergy with TC because it forces you to miss your land drops. Wasteland was taken out of UR in part because you want to be able to Cruise and cast the stuff you draw *the same turn you draw it*. Wasteland does the opposite - it denies you your own land drop for the turn. The late-game haymaker you are referring to in your first paragraph, in my mind, is Cruise itself. By replacing your fourth Waste with another mana source, you have a higher likelihood of being able to use your Cruises more effectively.

I should reiterate that I understand that it's a powerful effect and worth running. I think it's just not an automatic 4-of like it used to be. We have more things we want to do with our mana now because of Cruise.

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I'll counterpoint these both.

1) First, you are incorrect that a deck with merely 2 basics and 18 land completely nullify the usefulness of Wasteland. Certainly a deck like Miracles, which runs upwards of 6 basics, can mitigate the damage from Wasteland pretty well, but we are still bound to have games where the tempo play of "Delver, Waste you, Hold up Daze/Pierce/FoW/Stifle" still happens.

Against an 18 land deck though, I don't care how many basics they have, unless they are mono-colored, Wasteland will hurt. BBD's deck needs all 3 colors pretty readily by turn 2, and he is looking to resolve things like TNN, or Young Pyro + 1-drop, or Play/Equip Jitte in the midgame, so he is still very much susceptible to Wasteland. Also, He is a blue deck just like us, and needs to have blue mana open at all times if possible. Think of how bad it is when you have a Bayou and single Blue Dual in play, and you want to cast Delver + Cantrip, or need to play Cantrip but want to hold up Stifle/Pierce. BBD's deck is going to want options, and being forced to operate off of Plains + Island is very much going to restrict his ability to play his spells properly. Assuming he fetches both basics right away, you're in a very good position, as his 3rd land will always get hit by Waste, and you have more options and more of your colors than he does. It's a well-known truth that a couple basics doesn't actually beat Wasteland, and often you are better served just running MORE duals in the face of it, rather than less. If you decide to run Stifle, it gets even better against any 3-color deck, and doesn't hurt against straight U/R either. But point is, 2 basics out of 18 is only going to protect his mana source when he really needs to, such as with a Swords vs. Goyf or when Mystic's Vial is critical. The rest of the time, your Wastelands are still very live against his deck, and if they can't hit the basic they can generally still hit another land to turn on your soft counters and restrict his plays in general.

2) No one is telling you that you MUST use Wasteland, that's part of the appeal. And you aren't "missing" your land drop, you're simply using it as a Stone Rain. There is a difference. But the point is, if you need to cast Cruise for 3 mana and you have a Wasteland in hand as your land drop, it still casts Treasure Cruise as any other mana source would, and is actually better at casting it for a single Blue. It also helps cast Goyf, TNN, hardcast Daze/FoW, SB cards, etc. and pays for opposing Daze/Spell Pierce. And once again, if you're trying to cast a Treasure Cruise, there is no difference between paying for it with Wasteland's first (mana) ability or paying for it by exiling Wasteland after you used it's 2nd ability first.

I'm pretty sure I even made the play at one point of:
Me: "Pre-combat main, Waste your untapped blue dual"
Opp: "Float a blue"
Me: "Move to combat. Move to post-combat main. Play Treasure Cruise"
Opp: "....." (tapped out)

But I digress. The point is, Wasteland IS a mana source. The U/R Delver decks actually are running less mana sources than oldschool RUG Delver. Sure, they have more colored sources, but it's till 16 lands vs. 18 no matter how you slice it. It casts spells in almost every deck that runs it. And keep in mind those old RUG decks generally ran Stifle, which protects your own lands from opposing Wastes. Sure, there are times where it is effectively not a mana source, but that is easily mitigated by the times when it cuts off our opponent's mana, and often those situations are one and the same. The only time Wasteland is actually dead is against a mono-colored mana base with no utility lands, but I can't think of any of those decks off the top of my head. Goblins, Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Elves, Omni-Tell, Pox. They all have targets, even if they are minimal. Getting back to the point though, Wasteland is still a land. It still produces mana. It definitely still casts spells in our deck. And it's especially synergistic with Goyf, Deathrite Shaman, and Treasure Cruise.

And in this world of Treasure Cruises with the ever-present soft countermagic, Wasteland is still very potent.

I am curious as to how BUG is going to develop in the new meta.
In general I think the newest developments weaken the “old” BUG a lot.

- No access to red blast
- Treasure cruise strengthens other decks more than BUG
- How much better is drawing cards then a 5/5 flyer?
- Swiftspear/Pyromancer with many spells or SFM/Nemesis lategame is more powerful than drawing more deathrites, decays and tarmogofs…)

- Disfigure is much weaker due to not killing Swiftspear
- Dismember (paying 4 life) is much weaker due to U/R popularity
- Hymn to Tourach is a lot weaker due to decks being able to easier compensate with Treasure Cruise
- Liliana is much weaker due to swiftspear / burn

Recent TC results (as also discussed) in this thread indicate that adopting treasure seems to be the right thing and Thoughtseize/Stifle > ‘heavy black’ Hymn to tourach/Liliana.

Still, I feel there is no current “best build” and I don’t foresee it BUG getting back on top unless more innovation or meta shift happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

I am curious as to how BUG is going to develop in the new meta.
In general I think the newest developments weaken the “old” BUG a lot.

- No access to red blast
- Treasure cruise strengthens other decks more than BUG
- How much better is drawing cards then a 5/5 flyer?
- Swiftspear/Pyromancer with many spells or SFM/Nemesis lategame is more powerful than drawing more deathrites, decays and tarmogofs…)

- Disfigure is much weaker due to not killing Swiftspear
- Dismember (paying 4 life) is much weaker due to U/R popularity
- Hymn to Tourach is a lot weaker due to decks being able to easier compensate with Treasure Cruise
- Liliana is much weaker due to swiftspear / burn

Recent TC results (as also discussed) in this thread indicate that adopting treasure seems to be the right thing and Thoughtseize/Stifle > ‘heavy black’ Hymn to tourach/Liliana.

Still, I feel there is no current “best build” and I don’t foresee it BUG getting back on top unless more innovation or meta shift happen.

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Team continues to do well, despite the meta shift, just look at TCdecks to see the number of recent top finishes. We're all getting in playtesting with these various configurations (Stifles, TS, Pierce, etc.) and so far it seems we're highly competitive and have game against most MU's, including vs UR and Blade Decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

I am curious as to how BUG is going to develop in the new meta.
In general I think the newest developments weaken the “old” BUG a lot.

- No access to red blast
- Treasure cruise strengthens other decks more than BUG
- How much better is drawing cards then a 5/5 flyer?
- Swiftspear/Pyromancer with many spells or SFM/Nemesis lategame is more powerful than drawing more deathrites, decays and tarmogofs…)

- Disfigure is much weaker due to not killing Swiftspear
- Dismember (paying 4 life) is much weaker due to U/R popularity
- Hymn to Tourach is a lot weaker due to decks being able to easier compensate with Treasure Cruise
- Liliana is much weaker due to swiftspear / burn

Recent TC results (as also discussed) in this thread indicate that adopting treasure seems to be the right thing and Thoughtseize/Stifle > ‘heavy black’ Hymn to tourach/Liliana.

Still, I feel there is no current “best build” and I don’t foresee it BUG getting back on top unless more innovation or meta shift happen.

---

This is all true and it has highlighted the basic fact that BUG is a turn slower to react in many cases than UWR, UWB, UR, RUG, etc. Disfigure does exist but it doesn't have the same utility that Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares do. Abrupt Decay is a better removal spell strictly as removal than Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares but it is a turn slower and it doesn't go to the face like bolt or remove all creatures without protection like StP.

Prior to the printing of Treasure Cruise I saw BUG, RUG and the tri-color Stoneblade lists as essentially equal in overall power with RUG being the aggro list, BUG smoothly transitioning from aggro to aggro control and the Stoneblade lists as more controlling than either of the former.

Then TC took RUG out of the picture and promoted UR, which is an even faster aggro list, and the Stoneblade lists largely switched to UWR which is a better configuration against us - bolts for Delver and DRS and the face in addition to plows for the Goyfs, pyroblasts to make our blue spells less effective, the same 2-for-1 with SFM that had always been there and TNN still there to invalidate much of our removal. This at the same time that UR had made discard and Liliana of the Veil less effective overall.

Basically UR got Treasure Cruise and another hasty creature that Disfigure is fairly weak against. Stoneblade got bolts, pyroblasts and Treasure Cruise. BUG got just Treasure Cruise and had some of it's best spells weakened in the process.

Right now if you're not playing UWR you're not in the best blue shell colors and it's not even close in that regard. When Treasure Cruise leaves the meta things may revert but if Dig Through Time doesn't leave at the same time then UWR will shift smoothly over to using that as it's card advantage/selection device. At that point it will still have most of the advantages against us that it currently features and DTT isn't going to slide into our lists as smoothly because we don't play as many basics as UWR and we're going to have a harder time keeping 2 blue on the board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

This is all true and it has highlighted the basic fact that BUG is a turn slower to react in many cases than UWR, UWB, UR, RUG, etc. Disfigure does exist but it doesn't have the same utility that Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares do. Abrupt Decay is a better removal spell strictly as removal than Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares but it is a turn slower and it doesn't go to the face like bolt or remove all creatures without protection like StP.

Prior to the printing of Treasure Cruise I saw BUG, RUG and the tri-color Stoneblade lists as essentially equal in overall power with RUG being the aggro list, BUG smoothly transitioning from aggro to aggro control and the Stoneblade lists as more controlling than either of the former.

Then TC took RUG out of the picture and promoted UR, which is an even faster aggro list, and the Stoneblade lists largely switched to UWR which is a better configuration against us - bolts for Delver and DRS and the face in addition to plows for the Goyfs, pyroblasts to make our blue spells less effective, the same 2-for-1 with SFM that had always been there and TNN still there to invalidate much of our removal. This at the same time that UR had made discard and Liliana of the Veil less effective overall.

Basically UR got Treasure Cruise and another hasty creature that Disfigure is fairly weak against. Stoneblade got bolts, pyroblasts and Treasure Cruise. BUG got just Treasure Cruise and had some of it's best spells weakened in the process.

Right now if you're not playing UWR you're not in the best blue shell colors and it's not even close in that regard. When Treasure Cruise leaves the meta things may revert but if Dig Through Time doesn't leave at the same time then UWR will shift smoothly over to using that as it's card advantage/selection device. At that point it will still have most of the advantages against us that it currently features and DTT isn't going to slide into our lists as smoothly because we don't play as many basics as UWR and we're going to have a harder time keeping 2 blue on the board.

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No one is forcing anyone to play Team. Myself and others are sticking to it because we see the merits and success of it. Can we have some more constructive discussions, or post playtesting results versus all this nagging? Seriously, look back at the past few pages of the forum, half of it is complaining.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

I am curious as to how BUG is going to develop in the new meta.
In general I think the newest developments weaken the “old” BUG a lot.

- No access to red blast
- Treasure cruise strengthens other decks more than BUG
- How much better is drawing cards then a 5/5 flyer?
- Swiftspear/Pyromancer with many spells or SFM/Nemesis lategame is more powerful than drawing more deathrites, decays and tarmogofs…)

- Disfigure is much weaker due to not killing Swiftspear
- Dismember (paying 4 life) is much weaker due to U/R popularity
- Hymn to Tourach is a lot weaker due to decks being able to easier compensate with Treasure Cruise
- Liliana is much weaker due to swiftspear / burn

Recent TC results (as also discussed) in this thread indicate that adopting treasure seems to be the right thing and Thoughtseize/Stifle > ‘heavy black’ Hymn to tourach/Liliana.

Still, I feel there is no current “best build” and I don’t foresee it BUG getting back on top unless more innovation or meta shift happen.

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-No access to red blast-- also not as vulnerable to it. Tarmogoyf and Deathrite laugh at main deck pyroblast
-Treasure cruise strengthens too us since we are drawing more removal spells
-Ancestral Recall > Tombstalker
-Mainphasing a Disfigure against a Swiftspear will either kill it or read "target opponent wastes a brainstorm and gain a life" Still a decent deal...
-Don't play dismember, play dimir charm
-Don't play hymn to tourach, play thought seize or stifle (both cards are also good against stone forge)
-Run less liliana and board her out when she isn't necessary


Brief answers I realize but I think if Stoneforge is the card that people will pick up then BUG might have a better matchup against it than other decks like UR. I personally am planning on running 4 disfigure between the main and side. Thoughtseize can deal with pesky tutored equipment. Dimir Charm is an Abrupt Decay/Envelop split card. My plan for beating Treasure Cruise fueled UR and Stoneblade decks is to kill everything they play. As John McLain said in Die Hard 4 "The plan- Find Lucy, Kill everyone else."