All B/R update speculation.

Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I anticipate SFM getting the axe before TNN. TNN was just printed in a product that lets them make cards specifically for Eternal formats, I doubt they'd want to ban it so soon.

Which is a pity in no small part because in the absence of TNN, SFM enables a bunch of interesting decks, from D&T to all the X-Blade variants. TNN enables frustration and a lack of interaction, which are no one's idea of a good time (except maybe whatever hardcore masochist at WotC thought TNN was a good idea).

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

What were SotF at its height?

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40-60 or so. Ugh. Bunch of horse shit really.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

40-60 or so. Ugh. Bunch of horse shit really.

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Damn. Well maybe I'll pick up a set hoping for it to get unbanned

Mental Misstep did something similar to legacy in that a single card invalidated a bunch of archetypes. It didn't take long for decks like Storm, Elves, Goblins, etc to disappear completely as a result of that card being so dominant. I realize TNN is a completely different card but it's effects on the format are quite similar. If this card sticks around, the format will continue to degrade into a standard-like scene from a diversity standpoint.

TLDR: TNN is bad for legacy and I hope it vanishes so I don't feel forced to play it.

I don't understand what else people need to see in order to consider that a ban is warranted. There's a plethora of data from December 2013 through now that clearly shows non-blue creature decks that used to compete no longer do and have been replaced by some TNN-flavor or a deck that doesn't care about anything the opponent is doing at all. Even Storm players have stated that due to TNN and everything that comes with it (having extra SB slots for combo as TNN decks now CRUSH all other fair decks without even trying) they're also way down. So, TNN has directly pushed non-blue fair decks out while indirectly pushing Storm combo out too? Yeah, format has never been healthier! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Even Storm players have stated that due to TNN and everything that comes with it (having extra SB slots for combo as TNN decks now CRUSH all other fair decks without even trying) they're also way down. So, TNN has directly pushed non-blue fair decks out while indirectly pushing Storm combo out too? Yeah, format has never been healthier! :rolleyes:

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This is actually kinda funny considering it does absolutely nothing to Storm directly.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I don't understand what else people need to see in order to consider that a ban is warranted. There's a plethora of data from December 2013 through now that clearly shows non-blue creature decks that used to compete no longer do and have been replaced by some TNN-flavor or a deck that doesn't care about anything the opponent is doing at all. Even Storm players have stated that due to TNN and everything that comes with it (having extra SB slots for combo as TNN decks now CRUSH all other fair decks without even trying) they're also way down. So, TNN has directly pushed non-blue fair decks out while indirectly pushing Storm combo out too? Yeah, format has never been healthier! :rolleyes:

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Please don't take this personally, but this is exactly what happened when Survival got banned.
One or two months of dominance, no one bothered to adapt or hate out the dominant card.
Card gets the axe.

In Europe, Survival was strong, but by no means problematic.
I feel the exact same way about True-Name Nemesis.
It's not that dominant, there's plenty of stuff that beats it, and plenty ways to hate it out.
Just tune your deck a tad, and go kill those TNNs!

(On a lighter note, I'm not perse against banning of TNN. I don't like the card at all. I just don't like the reasons mentioned here.)

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I think they actually said the Storm mechanic was a mistake, not Tendrils of Agony (which just so happens to have the Storm mechanic on it). This is curious, as this admission of making the Storm mistake came years before Flusterstorm was printed. I like Flusterstorm a lot, don't get me wrong, but it just goes to show that Wizards makes up whatever reason/excuse that's convienient for them at the time, then proceeds on like nothing ever happened.

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Flusterstorm is not a problematic card, it doesn't kill anyone, and moreover, it attacks the Storm mechanic. As such, it's perfectly fine card and I'm also glad they made it. The greatest mistakes with "Storm" written on them were clearly Mind's Desire, then maybe Tendrils and maybe maybe Brain Freeze and maybe maybe maybe Empty the Warrens.
I like how Flusterstorm attacks Storm mechanic/decks from quite a different angle then counterspells, Stifle, Meddling Mage or Counterbalance (and other static stuff like CotV). Imho it's nice card and I'd love if they reprint it somewhere so that I may get a Chinese copy.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

This is actually kinda funny considering it does absolutely nothing to Storm directly.

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We had this discussion yesterday in some thread here: the fact that you don't really need to protect SFM+TNN, freed a shitload of SB space in this deck for a full set of Meddling Mages/Cannonist + Flusterstorms + REB's ... Not REALLY good news for storm :/

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

no one bothered to adapt or hate out the dominant card.

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Maybe because players have realized that playing TNN + playing countermagic is better than not playing TNN + playing narrow, context-specific TNN answers?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

We had this discussion yesterday in some thread here: the fact that you don't really need to protect SFM+TNN, freed a shitload of SB space in this deck for a full set of Meddling Mages/Cannonist + Flusterstorms + REB's ... Not REALLY good news for storm :/

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Thanks for info, I just wanted to cry about my ANT dissolution, now I see it wouldn't be pf any help to keep the deck.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Damn. Well maybe I'll pick up a set [of SoF] hoping for it to get unbanned

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I thought about the same, but then again I realized I should rather sell more cards than buy a new ones...
*checks his MKM account on incoming crap for T 1.996*

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Please don't take this personally, but this is exactly what happened when Survival got banned.
One or two months of dominance, no one bothered to adapt or hate out the dominant card.
Card gets the axe.

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Except Survival was widely considered to be a fun card, even for people on the other side of the table. Its problem was that it was extremely powerful and flexible aaand resilient, and despite me hating the ban, the format at the time honestly didn't have many good ways to battle the deck. I feel like there's a good case for it being unbanned in the current environment, but that's a different issue...

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Making the protection-from-player a trigger instead of a static ability would've made all the difference. Still would've been highly played, but not nearly as uninteractive and board dominant as it currently is.

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This. Nothing actually needs to be banned, if TNN were only errata'd to a triggered ability when it enters the battlefield then that would open up so many more points of interaction. The card would probably still be playable, but it wouldn't be the massive block of ice down everyone's panties that it is currently.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

This. Nothing actually needs to be banned, if TNN were only errata'd to a triggered ability when it enters the battlefield then that would open up so many more points of interaction. The card would probably still be playable, but it wouldn't be the massive block of ice down everyone's panties that it is currently.

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Yep, although I'm fairly certain that MaRo has gone on record stating that it won't happen because "that isn't how we want to use errata".

Btw, from a personal point of view, I'd love if they unban Frantic Search. I'm sitting on a greatest pile of Frantic Searches ever imaginable by a mere human.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Maybe because players have realized that playing TNN + playing countermagic is better than not playing TNN + playing narrow, context-specific TNN answers?

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No it isn't. Play Team America with awesome Golgari Charms on side!
Fucking amazing deck! Even a terrible player like myself rides that shit to the finals. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Yep, although I'm fairly certain that MaRo has gone on record stating that it won't happen because "that isn't how we want to use errata".

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I'd believe it, though given a choice of ban or errata, I'd hope they'd use errata... especially since I can't think of any legitimate reason why it wasn't just made a triggered ability in the first place.

@Dzra
Countertop decks during the reign of Survival played Counterspell over Spell Snare and players resisted switching their countersuit. Rarely anyone in the SCG top 16 bothered playing Pithing Needle, extripates or enchantment removal, but rather called SotF broken and banworthy.

The format had enough ways to interact with SotF; parts of the playerbase just rather prefers whining than adjusting their deck.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

@Dzra
Countertop decks during the reign of Survival played Counterspell over Spell Snare and players resisted switching their countersuit. Rarely anyone in the SCG top 16 bothered playing Pithing Needle, extripates or enchantment removal, but rather called SotF broken and banworthy.

The format had enough ways to interact with SotF; parts of the playerbase just rather prefers whining than adjusting their deck.

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+1 :laugh:

I just love how Lem improves my point almost every time.
You should be a pro debater!

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

@Dzra
Countertop decks during the reign of Survival played Counterspell over Spell Snare and players resisted switching their countersuit. Rarely anyone in the SCG top 16 bothered playing Pithing Needle, extripates or enchantment removal, but rather called SotF broken and banworthy.

The format had enough ways to interact with SotF; parts of the playerbase just rather prefers whining than adjusting their deck.

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Are you talking about playing fringe sideboard material like Extirpate maindeck? If so, then I think your definition of "adapting" is different from the vast majority of players. If you mean that these players weren't playing these sideboard cards in their sideboard, then yeah, that's dumb.

I am not sure that is the same situation as we have here tho. I mean what changes are open to Mav? What about Jund? Yea Jund can use -1 abilities, but I covered a few pages back why that don't mean shit right now.

Personally I am playing more Elves and Fish now than I have in a while. One has answers, the other speed. I would rather play Painter right now to be honest but painter is dead if TNN hits the table. (And painter is like the king of dudle in combo form...)

The card is flawed. Regardless of how it could have been printed to make it fair, it was not. So it's flaws shine though and everyone hates it. Honestly though, I am apathetic. I have no belief that it will go anywhere so I just deal. But if they pull this shit again I will just cash out because I would hate to be playing the game in 3 years if this is a sign of things to come.