To be fair, Chi Hoi could have just fetched before casting the Brainstorm too and never even given Brad the option of screwing him with Daze, so I believe at this point they were both getting a little tired.Quote:
Originally Posted by veeohla
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To be fair, Chi Hoi could have just fetched before casting the Brainstorm too and never even given Brad the option of screwing him with Daze, so I believe at this point they were both getting a little tired.Quote:
Originally Posted by veeohla
That Brainstorm got him SDT and the Snapcaster he needed to chump block though... if he fetched before the Brainstorm who knows if he would of pulled an answer.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Question.
You play first, drop a top and pass.
Your opponent drops DRS off of Bayou and passes.
You do not top as you have a Counterspell and you have mana in your hand, you draw the top card and flip it up to see Terminus. You do not have a Brainstorm in hand. Do you cast it?
I would probably cast the terminus there. You have to deal with the DRS eventually, plus you don't have a way to get it back on top of your library. This lets you make your turn be terminus and top activation, which seems vastly superior to holding up a counterspell and letting a dead terminus get into your hand. He might also be on BUG delver, so if he plays an island then daze becomes active and your counterspell might even just not do anything next turn. If you terminus the DRS, about the worst thing that he will likely do on two mana is cast a hymn or a tarmogoyf, neither one is particularly back breaking, but your opponent is still ahead on mana if any fetches have been broken. You are also going to be incredibly far behind if the DRS is paired with a wasteland.
We assume both players' life total are at either 19 (turn1 fetch) or 20. Here's the problem: multiple decks can do turn 1/turn 2 DRS. Are you playing against Elves? BUG Delver? Deathblade? They are not the same. Preferably, you don't want to use Terminus as 1-for-1, that's a job StP's meant for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I will probably not terminus. You have an active top. Which makes digging for a brainstorm or a jace easier. If the mana in hand is also a fetch, then even more so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Dealing with the Drs at this stage of the game is not urgent.
This is based on the idea that we don't know what he is playing
So assuming you have Counterspell and not Mana Leak or some weird techy shit in your hand; why the hell are you making a T1 Tundra?
Had two in hand.
Oh. in this case, i would terminus, instead of holding up the counterspell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Given the scenario, the most important thing to do will be to develop your mana base, which means your top activation will likely be more important than anything he can cast. Like what Valtrix mentioned, turn 2 hymn or gofy when you have an active top isn't really that scary.
Played in a small 14 player event this weekend (GPT: NJ) with Chi Hoi Yim's list. Matches were against Death and Taxes (1-1-1), BUG Delver (2-1), Dredge (2-0), and RUG Delver (ID). Top 8 first round was vs. MUD which utterly ended my run, due to matchup inexperience and a low number of sideboard options. Anyone have any tips for Big MUD style decks? I brought in Blood Moon and permanent / artifact removal (none of which I saw), but I feel like I lack good threat analysis and attack angle.
Most of my wins against MUD seem to come when they're stuck in topdeck mode. They don't have much deck manipulation, so I put extra focus on dealing with their first couple of turns. Ideally, I look for a hand with FOW + Disenchant/STP.Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium
Good afternoon all,
Rejoining the Miracles thread after a brief jaunt to Indianapolis, playing in the Legacy Open of course. I piloted our namesake deck to a 7-2 record, just shy of the top 8 and finishing in 10th place (a couple of 6-1-1s won their win and ins, and my breakers leapfrogged the people that lost to them, and I would have slotted into 8th if they both dropped their games), and I thought I would share the configuration I played as well as talk about my experience during the tournament as a whole, as it was a rather peculiar one.
Lands: 23
6 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
Spells: 37
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Council's Judgment
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Rest in Peace
3 Meddling Mage
3 Geist of St. Traft
1 Council's Judgment
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Supreme Verdict
So, there were some per-tournament decisions made that I prefer as a player. The meta decisions are the following:
Do I want to be better game 1 against fair creature decks, or spell based combo? I selected fair creature decks, and it paid off. The 4 cards that were flexes to change are the 3rd Vendilion Clique, the 2nd Council's Judgment, the 4th Terminus, and the 23rd land (9th fetch).
The way I sculpted my deck is the following. I considered Red (as this is obviously a Lossett inspired legends build), and then thought my way through it like this. The REBs are only good if you want to play a grindy game against combos, other blue midrange decks, etc. In all reality though, the cards that beat you in those decks... They aren't blue. Awkward. These cards beat some of your opponent's disruption, but they cause a largely unwanted effect.... They make you weaker to Wasteland, as you add Volcanic Islands to your deck, and your basic count goes down. That is a problem I wasn't in the market having. That is the reason I left our trusty Red allies on the bench.
For the big sore thumb in the sideboard: Geist of St. Traft. I want to be the most aggressive deck in the mirror. This makes me willing to tap out on turn 1, and 2, and 3, and pretty much every turn, because that is how I like to play these matches. Therefore I wanted to board in bears, and have a very hard to deal with threat that caused problems for my opponent. Originally the card that was selected was Teferi, as he is nearly impossible for your opponent to kill when backed up with Karakas (Read, actually impossible to kill), but then I realized, I don't want to make the game hard, and expect to resolve a 5 mana blue spell against an enemy who picked up red cards, and has a pile of REBs. I just want to slam a threat that they have 1 window to deal with, and kill them with it. My first thought was TNN, then I realized, that this is a card I want to use to clock combo decks as well (the ones that aren't comprised of creatures), and I arrived at Geist of St. Traft. The ol' 3 turn clock (someone is using up 2 lifepoints), that my opponent has one window to go off against me through, as I tap out for it on turn 3 or tap low on turn 5 to make this happen. He is resilient and hard to deal with, and gets them very dead, exactly what you want to do to clock your opponent. I made a bet with my friends that the Ghost with the Most had a line of 5.5 game wins. Came in just under, going the distance 5 times himself, and was very pivotal in my 7-2 record, both on top of the deck, and in play.
I played 9 rounds, and don't remember all of the total details, as I didn't get much sleep driving back, but I can list the wins and losses below, along with some highlight reel moments, theory behind the deck with post game analysis, feelings on cards, and reasoning for my losses.
Wins: U/W/R Delver, Elves, U/B Reanimator, Lands!!!!!, Burn, RUG Delver, Mono B Reanimator
Losses: Shardless BUG, U/B Tezzerator Painter
Highlight Reel: Playing against U/B Reanimator, I grinded him down to 1 card in hand, and I had Rest in Peace and CB in play (alas, no top). My opponent draws, and windmill slams Show and Tell, and I fetch to clear my top, and reveal a Geist of St. Traft, and mop up in short order.
Beating lands. No need to explain this one. Lost game 1, stole game 2 with a Geist when my opponent mulled to 5, and then used the Meddling Mage beatdown naming Punishing Fire and Crop Rotation so he couldn't make instant speed 20/20's, and then slammed Rest in Peace to shut down the Loam Engine, felt good.
Blindflipping 4 consecutive spells against Burn on my CB, the final revealing Sensei's Top... yea.
Reasons for losing: Against Shardless BUG, I just got grinded out of game 3. I don't feel like I made any glaring mistakes, I won game 2, and that was the only game I had a Top in... Not sure if coincidence or fact... (sarcasm*). I know this matchup is miserable, and I think it is another matchup that I don't think the REBs really help, but I would have killed for a Blood Moon or Keranos. Period. I am not sure what configuration I can make with my sideboard in that matchup to make things go in my favor... it probably has something to do with a Humility or something similar... Not sure, need more testing against it.
U/B Painterator... That deck I misidentified it. Game 1 I kept a reasonable hand against most decks. He made a turn 1 Grindstone off Ancient Tomb, and I realized that my reasonable hand wasn't good against that deck and I missed on FOW on Painter's Servant. Dead, then ID him as Mono Red Painter , board in correctly, and Die to the Tezzerator portion of the Deck. Would have slammed the door on him if my 2/2 I drew was Geist instead of Meddling Mage, as that creature did 12 damage to him.
Post Tournament Analysis - I feel it is a little hard for me to be objective, as I have been the advocate for a 2 color version of this deck for quite some time, thinking the red cards were too cute. Card choices get props and slops:
Props:
-Top, CB, Geist of St. Traft. The first 2 are obvious, but a ton of the games that I played against combo, having a clock like that is insane. If I drew that card in any game I boarded it in, I won. That was it, and the games I had it in my deck and lost, it would have sealed the deal if I ever drew it. I am very happy with the result, and would actually like to test the mirror, to see if it has the desired effect in those games. 100% will be keeping in my SB moving forward, until it becomes too hostile of an environment to be using this as a card that can fool combo, as well as close games if time becomes the enemy.
Slops:
-Venser, Shaper Savant: This effect is unique and powerful. I had this card in my hand a ton, and cast it 2 times. Pitching it to FOW 4 times. The card can do awesome things, like Lilianna Tricks, Protecting CB, etc, but it is big, slow, clunky, and hard to make excellent. I would probably shave it from its position from the deck entirely, but I need a unique and powerful card to replace it, and will be on the look out for something as such.
-Supreme Verdict - Card is muy bien against Delver decks, but impossible to cast against D+T, and it never really made an impact. I don't know if the deck needs the fifth wrath, and even if it does, I don't know if this is the man for the job. There are probably better cards, and I haven't really looked into it. Would like to try a different card in this slot as well, not really sure what that card could be (this fits the humility slot, but who knows)
All in all would suggest the U/W Version moving forward, and am more than willing to entertain splashes of all types as there are cards in 2 different colors I want (TSeize, Lingering Souls, Blood Moon, Keranos) but this version was very good to me, and if you want the ability to come out of the corners swinging in rounds 2 and 3, this deck has the teeth to do so. Please give me feedback, I love the discussion on this thread, and want to become a more regular contributor.
The pecularity of this tourney is the meta itself, it was so fair. So many delvers in the room, but the top 8 was 4 elves players, a maverick player, and 3 combo decks, I would have loved to have slid into that Top 8 in the 8th seed and terminused all of the creature decks into the ground but it wasn't meant to be. A fun experience all around, and I can't wait for SCG Minneapolis to run it back. Look forward to seeing some of you there!
I don't think Geist is good in the mirror. It's a 3 CMC sorcery speed spell that can maybe pull off some lucky wins, when it resolves. But besides that, you're investing 3 mana on your turn for a card that is not as high impact and can very easily die to Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique. I think Stoneforge Mystic is almost in every way superior, it costs less, creates card advantage, is not blue and is a lot more resilent and will win vs Geist.
I never faced this card often, even before TNN (i would play TNN over Geist, but when i want to play for fun only, i prefer my Thundermaw Hellkites). When i did face it, it was usually a very quick win for me, because it's just not good in the mirror.
With so many Cruises potentially running around. Time to go back to MD RIPs? If yes, what are the cuts?
After testing Dig Through Time, I'm pretty sure we should be playing it and so main deck RIP seems like a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
TheArchitect mentioned that UW RIP/ Helm Miracles maybe the way to in the new meta since being on that plan makes RIP an actual threat instead of just being a silver bullet. I would test this but I first want to see how much current builds can/ cannot handle Delver decks with Treasure Cruise before I go that far to fight the new meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
If you plan on running MD gy hate, Relic is better than Rest in Peace. You can always at least cycle it, if it's not needed. It is also better against Reanimator, is also GG against Dredge and hoses the new delve cards very well, without producing card disadvantage.
The problem i see with Rest in Peace against the delve spells is that, you'll look quite stupid when you board it against UR/UWR Delver and have like 3-4 targets.
Edit: I haven't played Modo for quite some time, so what's happening there? Infect is the 2nd best deck... lol I mean it's a good deck, but has a hard time against SFM shells.
I've been testing Dig Through Time as well and 2 so far has been the optimal number substituting 2 Ponders in the 4 Ponder Build of Einherjer. 3 often enough was too clunky or I didn't wanna cast it with Snapcaster targets in the GY. 1 is too random. 2 felt good and leaves enough material for Snapcaster to be valuable. Of course if you do not play him it doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zllig
No, that's just overreacting. Going RiP-helm is the same as saying plz overwhelm me with planeswalker(s).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
Due to my rather busy daily-schedule right now I havn't really tested but let me give you a few impressions and guidelines that I have gathered from my testing, theoretizing and most importantly (!) talking to people I trust who had more time to test than I did.
Delve spells will enter the format. That's for sure. They are powerful new tools for different decks and archetypes all across Legacy. I have been helping at writing an article about the influence of the Delve spells in the format, but the publishing of it has been delayed, as has the last part of the Miracles primer for SCG. Anyways, there is no hiding from these cards, so we have to do something, do we?
First of all, Miracles will not perish, as falsely advocated by people who don't seem to understand how this deck works. Without an oustandingly unrealistic turn of events Miracles will retain its spot on top of the format. Following this mind set it doesn't seem necessary to go all-in panic and move (back) to the RIP build, even though I'd give everything to play the list I made Top64 at GP Strasbourg with, without any Byes. It was insane back then, but is strictly inferior to the 4-Ponder mainboard, as are many/most other lists. With the exception of the hilarious forcast that involves BUG taking over the format completly there is no reason to fall back on RIP in the Mainboard, though I am forced to re-integrate said card in the sideboard once again.
The most natural and first impression of a pilot of the 4-Ponder build in anticipation of the new Delve cards would be upping the REB count in the MB and SB. Integrating Mountain in the 21 land list is something that is very risky and I can understand every single one of you that wouldn't like to do that, but I believe that this step is a valid one if you feel like mainboarded REBs are a necessity. One could also just up the count of REB effects in the sideboard, but this wouldn't be as effective as the earlier mentioned approach due to the well known context of impactful cards in the preboarded MUs.
Before moving on it might be of use to re-evaluate the Delve cards from a Miracles perspective, and a Miracles perspective only. The only other decks that have been creating incremental card advantage were Jund and Shardless BUG, in the past. They've been tough MUs, with the real tools beatable but could easily go wrong if keeping a "bad" hand G1. But why was this so? Well, this was due to many reasons which you can read about here: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...r--Part-3.html and in the beginning at Part 4, which should be coming out as soon as this hilarious flood of Khans or Tarkir articles ends.
But what if Delver decks are now having access to real card-advantage? Their previous "card-advantage" was earned by hard work aka shuffling useless lands away but they are now having the raw power. What does this mean for us? Well, funnily enough, not that much. We are still getting killed by the same fragile creatures, their countermagic is still either Force of Will or of a soft kind. So this a) leads us to a more patient way of playing as outplaying their soft-counters isn't gonna happen. If you havn't had an incentive to play around Daze/Pierce in the past, well there you go. b) it also opens up options that I have used for GP Paris but cut shortly after. Reset buttons that can't be dealt with just as Supreme Verdict are now real cards again, even though they used to be / are clearly inferior to Terminus, regarding the well known and obvious points.
You also need a relieable way to create a small amount of card-advantage on yourself. You could do this by integrating Dig Through Time into Miracles, but as of now I am no big fan of this, especially not in my version, as the only thing you could be doing is cutting Ponders which will lead to an inbelieavable increased variance. Like if you draw a Ponder T1 and Dig Through Time T6+ you are going to feel great, you are going to stomp all these pesky opposing decks but what happens if it's vice versa? Well, you'll be slaughtered. Horribly. Without any mercy. There won't be prisoners. Nobody takes prisoners that add more clunky cards to an already incredibly clunky deck.
You could also create that small amount of card advantage by using what is already there, without needing to fan-boy around with these new cards that are all so shiney. Counterbalance and Snapcaster Mage are integral parts of the deck the way I build it and should be maxed out. As slots are tight 4/3 are alright, if you ask me. Delver decks are still weak to Counterbalance. And yes, even though they can just draw three won't rescue them as they are still lacking answers to Counterbalance itself, as Balance can deal with most of them, at least in the non-green versions, which I think are going to surpass Green Delver for the first time in Legacy.
Permanentbased hate like Blood Moon and Rest in Peace are getting better due to the ability to come down when/before the opponent delves. Same counts for Counterbalance. Following this thought process might force myself into re-evaluating what I wrote and stood up for in regards to the Team America - MU. Time will tell but I could def. see me going to overload once again, depending on the 75 I battle with, ofc.
If the format slows down and turns into a zoo of blue durdling slow NON-Control decks it seems natural that predatorsl ike Storm and Show and Tell will rise in numbers to counteract this very strategy, punishing all these greedy basterds for cutting a Pierce or Daze for Treasure Cruise. Be prepared for this by adding your count of disruption just as Flusterstorm and/or Vendilion Clique.
To summarize, I believe that my good old trusty list is still outstandingly good in the modern metagame, not warranting any changes made to yet as of now. I am not sure about the right configuration of the sideboard, though my good friend Angelo Cadei came up with something that looks pretty good. It's somehow mirrors what I said above, so I am sure you find a sideboard that a) plays along the lines of what I was talking about and b) fits your needs and opinions.
Sadly though I cannot attend Ovino next weekend, but there are at least two good 4-Ponder pilots ready to take it down.
I hope I could give you a good overview of my first impressions of these cards and necessary counter-meassures or the lack of them. Things may change with an increased testing time, so let's see if and/or when I change my mind.
Greetings