[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by raindrainxi

With this post I have new found respect for you, GoboLord! :wink:
It is one thing to post all accomplishments, but to admit your inadequacies in order for green, inexperienced players such as myself to pick up on is the true sign of a veteran.

With that saying, I like how you demonstrated how to effectively use ports to lock out opponents, it is in this specific area that I am finding myself not maximizing its abilities. Can we discuss more of our experiences on port , and to some extent wasteland, game winning strategies? Thanks!

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Thank you.
I've been trying Ports for 2 months now and I still find myself either over- or underusing them in certain MUs. Their value in MU's in which manadenial means everything is obvious (like Landstill, Vengevival, Threshold). Maybe other players (that have used them ever since) could comment on that?

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

@Gobolord: Good report. Being able to learn from your mistakes, I have found, is very rewarding. And god damn every time I play against Enchantress it's like they don't even have a life total; I'm always 1 turn away from alpha striking and they just lock me out and there is nothing I can do. Such is life. Did you end up liking the Skirk Prospector? It's always nice to have another 1 drop and the silly things you can do with the guy is so cool.

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Skirk Prospector is just another card I virtually never played before. I've been packing this guy only cause ScatmanX convinced me to do so. I found him very useful during the testing phase (with GW Vengevival) although I didn't get to abuse him on the last tourney. I guess it needs some more practice. I can only say that he is a freak if you totally use your lands for mandenial. e.g.
You control 2 Mountain, 1 Port 1 Skirk Prospector.
play MWM with 2 Mountain. sac MWM in opponent's upkeep for Port-activation.

Actually I'm better in "learning-by-doing" when it comes to consideration of so far untested cards. Therefore I can tell you more about Ports and Prospector in like 3 weeks (preparation phase for another great tournament).

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Thank you you.
I've been trying Ports for 2 months now and I still find myself either over- or underusing them in certain MUs. Their value in MU's in which manadenial means everything is obvious (like Landstill, Vengevival, Threshold). Maybe other players (that have used them ever since) could comment on that?

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The deal about Port is that, if you start using it, you have to stick with that plan.
Take your Stax MU for instance. You had soft lock there. Sure he could draw 2 Plains, and win the game, but you had the upper had there. Casting your goblin was a mistake, because it rendered all the work you had locking him, useless, since he only needed to have his mana available once. What I'm trying to say is: If you start locking your opponent, specially with multiples Ports, keep doing that until you have lethal. Don't break your lock, because 1 turn is all your opponent needs.
I lost 2 games already to Enchantress because I didn't use my Port to cast some goblins, just for 1 turn, and got locked out of the game for good.

Another issue about Port is: You have to evaluate how much it is going to slow down your opponent, and how much it is going to slow you down. I mean, you can choose to use it turn 2, instead of playing a MWM. There are some thing you can take in consideration:
1- Do you have more lands?
2- Do you have an Wasteland too?
3- The land your opponent cast is a basic? Fetch?
4- Do you have an Warchief?
5- How good is your creature curve in your hand?
6- You have Vial/Lackey?
7- How much colored mana does your opponent have?
8- How much cost the BOMB in your opponent deck?

Now, usually, if I have more lands, I'll use Ports, because with this play we may be able to stifle his gameplan, while only slowing down a little ours.
If I have a Waste, and he play a nonbasic, I'd use Port. This because, this way, I'll have 3 lands by turn 3 (mountain, Waste, Port) and he'll have 2. So in your turn, you can decide, depending on the 2nd land he played, whether you want to destroy that land or not.
If you have a Warchief, and just lands, you could wait too, once the MWM you would play for 2, turn 2, will eventually just cost 1 mana.
If you have an awesome curve, and can get the guy dead by turn 3-4, don't slow your game down because of Port. Go for it.
The same is truth if you have Lackey or Vial. This is the best moment to abuse Port.
If your opponent have only 1 source of Red mana, and is playing a deck that run Firespout, tap his land. You don't want to give him the opportunity to cast it.
If your opponent uses E.Plague, you may want to use Port when have have 2 lands. If he uses Humility, keeping him off his 3rd mana isn't as important as keeping him out of his 4th.

I remembered a situation, where I was playing against Dredge. I had just upped my Vial to 5, with SGC in my hand, and 4 mana into play. He was at 6, and I was at a quite comfortable life total. I had 1 Port, and he had 2 lands. Game 2. I wanted to EOT put SGC into play with Vial, sac some goblins, and finish him in my turn. The deal is that I think he could have Firestorm in his hand. So, instead of Porting him at upkeep, I let him use his mana. In his turn, with 1 of his lands, he cast a Careful study, leaving 1 for the Firestorm. But, tricky, he misplayed, because I hadn't used Port yet, activating it in his 2nd mainfase. In response, he cast Firestorm, killing some goblins, and dealing some dmg to me. Eot I got to tap Vial, cheat SGC into play, and win on my turn.
Well, don't know if there's anything to learn here, just wanted to share.
Port is quite difficult to master, but certainly worth it.

Hey there, goblin players...

Just went to a local tournament and it made me think about my sideboard... I lost twice to White Stax variants (humility/moat and non-humility/moat), Enchantress, B/W Control (it's a weird deck that uses Damnation/Wrath of God + Humility/Moat [I think he doesn't have a good opinion towards creatures])...

I was using GoboLord's sideboard and I saw that two cards were really underused, so I decided to drop one of each to add 2 Anarchy.

New sideboard:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Anarchy
1 Boartusk Liege
1 TukTuk Scrapper

Dispite the massive card disadvantage from Stax decks, when they manage to put on their Lock-Pieces, there isn't much you can do. And anarchy seems to be the best answer to those Prison decks.

Vexing Shusher was dropped because I don't see counterspells as a big threat against goblins.

Dropped 1 Chalice of the Void also, because I don't see much Storm decks here... and I felt like it was the weakest spot left in sideboard (since Leyline of the Void and Pyrokinesis can't be played as a three of imo).

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

New sideboard:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Anarchy
1 Boartusk Liege
1 TukTuk Scrapper

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Hey. I don't know what's on your main board. Do you splash black? Honestly, yard hate is not as important as Chalice. If you play less than 4, then it's not worth being on the sideboard unless you have other combo hate. Being a Goblin player means that you'll go straight from vial --> lackey --> matron --> ringleader which means you won't get much of a chance to draw it. At most you have is maybe 7 cards? If you only run three, that greatly decreases the chances of drawing it. I would cut it entirely if I were you. Either that or cut Leyline of the void and play other types of hate.

I feel that in your board, maybe Boartusk Liege is the weakest slot. In testing, I find Liege to be uber weak. Any deck that runs plague runs Swords to Plowshare/Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse/etc, so I don't see Liege as an out to Plague. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Chalice has more important applications outside of storm combo. I once used it to completely lock out Dreadstill. If anything is the flex slot, it is the Liege or the Leylines and not the Chalice.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

//Lands [22]
14 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

//Core [26]
4: Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader
2: Siege-Gang Commander

//Flex Slots [7+5]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Round 2: GW Survival
Game 1: I know what he is playing. He goes first. So I mull into a hand that can effectively deal with his manasources (Hierarch and non-basiclands). My decision turns out to be good, but he seems to know what my plan is. In the course of first 4 turns he has 3 Noble Hierarchs, while I had only 1 Bolt and 1 Incinerator for them. He fetches on basiclands only, so my double Wasteland are plain useless. Still this game last pretty long. When he goes for the Iona + Retainer “combo” I have Aether Vial @ 3 and my army is somewhat able to frighten his Iona, it can’t launch for an attack, neither can I. With Survival of the Fittest he gets to fetch some Tarmogoyfs and wins a few turns later.

IN: 4 Pyrokinesis
OUT: Goblin Chieftain, 3 Lightning Bolt

Game 2: I follow my philosophy from G1 and mull down to 5 to find mnanadenial and removal. He scoops on turn 5 because Pyrokinesis ate his Noble Hierarch and Quasali Pridemage, Wasteland destroyed Horizon Canopy, Rishadan Port tapped his lonely basic forest and Sharpshooter lay waiting for more Hierarchs.

Game 3: Again I have to take mulligan into manadenial + removal, nevertheless I have T1 Vial. Double port shuts his mana off after Gempalm and Pyrokinesis cleared the board. I find myself with only Warchief in play, Vial @ 3, Matron and Sharpshooter in hand, and 2 Ports/2 Mountains in play, while my opponent has 3 Forests and 1 Plains.
Meanwhile some spectators came to watch us playing. One of them (sitting next to me) was commenting on my moves: “good”, “nice”, “what else can we expect from a goblin player with YOUR experience?” and the like. Well…I’ll come back to this later. Let’s return to the game.
I tapped Vial for Matron @ Ringleader. Then I made a poor move: I played Ringleader to hopefully find Piledriver and attack for 12. Instead I found nothing. In my EOT he discards Iona and goes for Retainer. I’m unable to use my Ports in his upkeep, so I allow him to have access of W to cast Retainer. His combo finishes me off. I lost just because I was too greedy…because I didn’t play that Sharphooter on my hand and keep Port + X to seal away his W mana.
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Constructive criticism is allowed, right? Where's the dedicated Survival hate? I want to see something other than burn. Pithing needle would be awesome in your SB. It could have shut down Survival OR Loyal Retainers. Also, why are you running Leyline of the Void as your GY hate? Since you're mono-red you can't really use it against anything other than Dredge, and I know I'd want the most playable GY available in a format overrun with Vengevines.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Round 5 – Enchantress
Game 1: I know what he’s playing, so I mull down to 5 to keep a rather fast hand. I’m able to take him down to 11 before he locks me off.
Before I scoop I ask him for how long he’s been playing his deck (cause he’s rather young: ~15). He tells me that this is his 2nd tourney ever. I expect him to be a bad player.

IN: 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Vexing Shusher
OUT: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 2 Aether Vial.

Game 2: I take mulligan to 5 to have an aggressive start. All I find is Wasteland, Vial, Chalice, 2 MWM. I go first with Vial and find a land on turn 2 to cast Chalice @1. On turn 3 he has Ghostly Prison. Still I’m able to beat him down to 5 before he locks me off. After the game he tells me that he has a lot of practice with his deck; with this MU in particular; cause he has been introduced to Enchantress by “goldfishing” Goblins a hundred time.
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I don't like Chalice here. It can't stop a T1 Elephant Grass anyway, and the rest of Enchantress has a pretty high curve. Enchantress is hampered by cards like Thorn of Amethyst or Pyrostatic Pillar. From reading your report it seems that maybe Anarchy would be appropriate for your meta. If you're willing to splash Green Reverent Silence and a host of enchantment hate becomes available. If you're happy with your mono-red build this MU should always give you trouble. Obviously Red by definition doesn't have answers to enchantments. Back in spring I played a R/b/g build that played K Grip and Reverent Silence out of the SB. It worked incredibly well, as fetches allowed me to hide my Taigas until G2 or G3 when I would plop one down, see the look of surprise on my opponent's face, then blast their enchantments away. If you want to stay Mono-Red perhaps you could SB Thorn of Amethyst to crank up your mana-denial control game.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Round 6 – W Moat Staxx (yeah, the one with 4 Moat and 4 Humility)
Game 1: I know what he is playing, however, he goes first and those facts don’t influence my mulligan decisions. I mull down to 5. He starts with Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb, Trinisphere. On turn 2 He plays Humilty, I scoop.
IN: 1 Vexing Shusher
OUT: 1 Gempalm Incinerator

Game 2: I mull down to 5 and keep a hand with only Skirk Prospector, but lots of Wastelands/Ports. I am able to effectively shut his mana off while my lonely Skrikprospector beats him down to 11. With 6 lands and 2 Ports I play Goblin Chieftain (with 2 Lands and 1 R from Skirk Prospector) to be able to tap 2 lands in his upkeep. This was a poor move cause I could just have tapped 3 lands, attack for 4 and use Skirk Prospector’s mana for Port activation in his upkeep. I tap 2 lands (Ancient Tomb, Plains), although he has 2 Plains. He plays Mox Diamond and Ancient tomb from hand and casts Moat. I regret not having tapped those 2 Plains of his. On my turn I play SGC. On his turn he play Armageddon. I regret having sacrificed my Prospector (cause he is on 5 meanwhile, because of his Ancient Tomb). I don’t find lands anymore to make use of SGC’s tokens.
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It looks like enchantment/white hate would once again be beneficial. It also seems like you missed an opportunity to side in Tuktuk Scrapper. Again, Thorn would be decent too.

If I may critique your SB for a moment...

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Since you are mono-red Leyline seems extremely suspect. You can't play it unless you Mull to it, which is only effective against Dredge. You couldn't side it in for your Survival match because it isn't worth mulling to Leyline in that game. If you played Tormod Crypt or whatever instead you could side it in and draw into it and have a useful anti-graveyard play to shut down the Iona. Running 4 Leylines in a mono-red deck says to me "I'm terrified of the Dredge matchup, and I'm willing to sacrifice versatility for security". There isn't anything wrong with wanting to auto-win against Dredge G2/3, but you give up a lot of playability. Most importantly, Leyline is 25% of your SB. Is Dredge anywhere near 25% of your meta to warrant such narrow hate?

Chalice is great, but I would suggest diversifying your combo hate with Pithing Needle. Needle is great against everything. Survival, Belcher, ThopterSwords, Grindstone, Necrotic Ooze. It does SO damned much against permanent based combo that it really deserves to see play in your SB.

Pyrokinesis is great, but I have to wonder how necessary it is for your SB, given that you're already playing 3 Lightning Bolt MD. It seems that cutting a few of these could make room for anti-non-creature cards, like artifact hate, Anarchy, or maybe even a Red Elemental Blast or two. Basically your Pyrokinesises (sp?) are redundant, and you're losing flexibilty by having 4 SB slots tied up in burn.

Shusher- I totally dig this guy. He comes in super handy, and can be incredible against control decks. Opponents tend to forget what he does once he's in play, which leads to beautifully awkward moments of you two-for-zeroing their Force of Will.

Boartusk - Eh. I tried it. It's hard to play (RRR1) and when you're playing against E. Plague there's usually plenty of spot removal to take him out. Plus, it pisses me off that this guy doesn't give your goblins haste or anything, just the pump. Chieftain seems better.

Tuktuk- Good against Jitte. Tinkerer is better against SDT. I've been going back and forth, but Tinkerer's reuseability is extremely appealing. The name of the game is card advantage, right?

So there's my two cents.

Actually I didn't want to discuss my list, but my playing mistakes; but seen that way we can talk about it as well. Here we go.

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Constructive criticism is allowed, right? Where's the dedicated Survival hate? I want to see something other than burn. Pithing needle would be awesome in your SB. It could have shut down Survival OR Loyal Retainers. Also, why are you running Leyline of the Void as your GY hate? Since you're mono-red you can't really use it against anything other than Dredge, and I know I'd want the most playable GY available in a format overrun with Vengevines.

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Criticism is appreciated!
Survival hate: As I said before, I don't like Survival hate in form of permanents. I want to aim at their manabase (that's what the removal is for). Therefore: no GY hate, no Pithing Needle because they run Qasali Pridemage/Trygon Predator/K Grip

Leylines: I'll come to that later, cause you mentioned it twice.

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I don't like Chalice here. It can't stop a T1 Elephant Grass anyway, and the rest of Enchantress has a pretty high curve. Enchantress is hampered by cards like Thorn of Amethyst or Pyrostatic Pillar. From reading your report it seems that maybe Anarchy would be appropriate for your meta. If you're willing to splash Green Reverent Silence and a host of enchantment hate becomes available. If you're happy with your mono-red build this MU should always give you trouble. Obviously Red by definition doesn't have answers to enchantments. Back in spring I played a R/b/g build that played K Grip and Reverent Silence out of the SB. It worked incredibly well, as fetches allowed me to hide my Taigas until G2 or G3 when I would plop one down, see the look of surprise on my opponent's face, then blast their enchantments away. If you want to stay Mono-Red perhaps you could SB Thorn of Amethyst to crank up your mana-denial control game.

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Chalice: Chalice is always better than removal in this MU. I know it isn't good though, but I just can't board anything other than Chalice. CHalice @ 1 shuts down not only E.Grass, but those Utopia Sprawls and Wild Growths too. That makes it hard for them to pay their Grass out while playing those 3cc spells.

Rest: I don't want to prepare for enchantress, cause its actually rather rare in my meta.

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It looks like enchantment/white hate would once again be beneficial. It also seems like you missed an opportunity to side in Tuktuk Scrapper. Again, Thorn would be decent too.

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Dutch Staxx doesnt run artifacts other than Mox Diamond, Chalice and Trinisphere.
Plus, seriously....Thorn of Amethyst against Staxx? No way. I can't imagine that they'd possibly run into trouble with their mana.

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If I may critique your SB for a moment...

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Since you are mono-red Leyline seems extremely suspect. You can't play it unless you Mull to it, which is only effective against Dredge. You couldn't side it in for your Survival match because it isn't worth mulling to Leyline in that game. If you played Tormod Crypt or whatever instead you could side it in and draw into it and have a useful anti-graveyard play to shut down the Iona. Running 4 Leylines in a mono-red deck says to me "I'm terrified of the Dredge matchup, and I'm willing to sacrifice versatility for security". There isn't anything wrong with wanting to auto-win against Dredge G2/3, but you give up a lot of playability. Most importantly, Leyline is 25% of your SB. Is Dredge anywhere near 25% of your meta to warrant such narrow hate?

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Leyline is against Lands, Aggro Loam, Dredge and New Horizons (and Threshold maybe).
In all of those MUs it's senseless to hardcast Leyline at any time cause they can do pretty much with what they have in their GY by then. I never hardcasted Leyline. Not in Rb and not in R. Therefore being monocolored is not an argument against Leyline.
Tormod's Crypt would be my 2nd choice. Oftentimes my opponents were able to play around it, that's why I dropped it. One can't play around Leyline without removing it.
Actually I don't even aggresively take muuligan at Leylines. It's more that they raise my chances on good opening hands. Plus they are virtually an auto-win against Lands and Dredge.

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Chalice is great, but I would suggest diversifying your combo hate with Pithing Needle. Needle is great against everything. Survival, Belcher, ThopterSwords, Grindstone, Necrotic Ooze. It does SO damned much against permanent based combo that it really deserves to see play in your SB.

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As stated before: I don't like Needle. It can do many things, but it's oftentimes not worth boarding it. I like cards for my SB that are gamebreaking and Needle absolutely isn't.

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Pyrokinesis is great, but I have to wonder how necessary it is for your SB, given that you're already playing 3 Lightning Bolt MD. It seems that cutting a few of these could make room for anti-non-creature cards, like artifact hate, Anarchy, or maybe even a Red Elemental Blast or two. Basically your Pyrokinesises (sp?) are redundant, and you're losing flexibilty by having 4 SB slots tied up in burn.

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IMO Pyrokinesis is the best card we have available to fight Vengevival variants (again: stated before, see above).

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Shusher- I totally dig this guy. He comes in super handy, and can be incredible against control decks. Opponents tend to forget what he does once he's in play, which leads to beautifully awkward moments of you two-for-zeroing their Force of Will.

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Actually the idea was to make sure that I can cast my L.Bolts/Lackeys/AEther Vials when Chalice is set @ 1. But...yeah it's good against control.

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Boartusk - Eh. I tried it. It's hard to play (RRR1) and when you're playing against E. Plague there's usually plenty of spot removal to take him out. Plus, it pisses me off that this guy doesn't give your goblins haste or anything, just the pump. Chieftain seems better.

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I guess we had this discussion before =/ I don't agree with you here.

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Tuktuk- Good against Jitte. Tinkerer is better against SDT. I've been going back and forth, but Tinkerer's reuseability is extremely appealing. The name of the game is card advantage, right?

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I wouldn't even board artifact hate (not even Tinkerer) to aim for SDT. This is just a waste of time. Almost every MU in which we could face SDT requires us to be very fast and that's not what tinkerer does.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Boartusk - Eh. I tried it. It's hard to play (RRR1) and when you're playing against E. Plague there's usually plenty of spot removal to take him out. Plus, it pisses me off that this guy doesn't give your goblins haste or anything, just the pump. Chieftain seems better.

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Yeah, Boartusk Liege has proven to be the weakest slot. All those E.Plague decks have responses to him.

My list is the mono-red everyone is playing (skirk-shooter, 3 mwm, etc...)

My new sb is now looking like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy
1 Vexing Shusher
1 TukTuk Scrapper

I still think that Pyrokinesis should be a four of instead of chalice, but i'll pratice it to make sure.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Yeah, Boartusk Liege has proven to be the weakest slot. All those E.Plague decks have responses to him.

My list is the mono-red everyone is playing (skirk-shooter, 3 mwm, etc...)

My new sb is now looking like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy
1 Vexing Shusher
1 TukTuk Scrapper

I still think that Pyrokinesis should be a four of instead of chalice, but i'll pratice it to make sure.

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Pyrokinesis is fine as a 3-of since they suppliment your maindeck removal. If you play MWM, there really isn't much to fear from zoo, so I don't know why you would need more than three.

If your list is mono colour, I would suggest you not play Leyline of the Void. Seeing it in your Ringleader is just awkward (not because it's not a goblin, but because it's not red). Dredge's main hate cards are against Leyline of the Void because it is strong in the mirror. Therefore playing Leyline only makes you weaker against them (I guess you'll surprise them game 2. I hope you won game 1 then). I don't quite understand Vexing Shusher either. In what situations would you need him? Goblins do fine against counterspells.

If I were to ever play anything against countermagic, it would be Warren Instigator over Vexing Shusher. Instigator just makes dirty plays. LOL.

If you DO decide to open two more slots, I would deligate them to Blood Moon because they are sick when randomly boarded in in some match ups.

I've tested Blood Moon, and it has been useful against some matches, not all of them. Dunno if they worth to be on sideboard.

I don't personally like Warren Instigator (he's a beast, tho), because to play them, you should drop some gray lands (mainly Rishadan Ports). Mana denial is somewhat better than explosiveness in my opinion.

Vexing Shusher is mainly to fight CounterTop if you get a really bad start, or playing over your chalice. It's a weak slot too.

Leyline of the Void is the best GY hate, but it has it's weakness (topdecking/ringleader). I like it, because you can just drop it and stop that T1 combo or preparation (e.g.: swamp -> dark ritual -> entomb -> exhume), or even a dredge, perhaps. The problem with the artifact based GY hate is that every deck that relies heavily on GY (Dredge, Reanimator, Loam) use Nature's Claim. Leyline can at least delay them a little bit.

Maybe I'll drop the Shusher to add a Goblin Tinkerer (to side in with TukTuk), since I've been in a little trouble against artifacts lately.

For my meta, I think the sb should be like:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
2x Anarchy
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Tinkerer

Maybe a Goblin Pyromancer...

Seriously, did you even read my last post?? It answers every question you have.

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Originally Posted by jin

Pyrokinesis is fine as a 3-of since they suppliment your maindeck removal. If you play MWM, there really isn't much to fear from zoo, so I don't know why you would need more than three.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

IMO Pyrokinesis is the best card we have available to fight Vengevival variants (again: stated before, see above).

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Originally Posted by jin

If your list is mono colour, I would suggest you not play Leyline of the Void. Seeing it in your Ringleader is just awkward *(not because it's not a goblin, but because it's not red). Dredge's main hate cards are against Leyline of the Void because it is strong in the mirror. Therefore playing Leyline only makes you weaker against them (I guess you'll surprise them game 2. I hope you won game 1 then).

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Leyline is against Lands, Aggro Loam, Dredge and New Horizons (and Threshold maybe).
In all of those MUs it's senseless to hardcast Leyline at any time cause they can do pretty much with what they have in their GY by then. I never hardcasted Leyline. Not in Rb and not in R. Therefore being monocolored is not an argument against Leyline.
Tormod's Crypt would be my 2nd choice. Oftentimes my opponents were able to play around it, that's why I dropped it. One can't play around Leyline without removing it.
Actually I don't even aggresively take muuligan at Leylines. It's more that they raise my chances on good opening hands. Plus they are virtually an auto-win against Lands and Dredge.

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Could you please explain what you mean by that*?
And how is any other GY hate different from Leyline when you reveal it in you Ringleader?

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Originally Posted by jin

I don't quite understand Vexing Shusher either. In what situations would you need him? Goblins do fine against counterspells.

If I were to ever play anything against countermagic, it would be Warren Instigator over Vexing Shusher. Instigator just makes dirty plays. LOL.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Actually the idea was to make sure that I can cast my L.Bolts/Lackeys/AEther Vials when Chalice is set @ 1. But...yeah it's good against control.

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What do you guys think about Magus of the Moon in today's meta?
I was thinking about bringing it in against Ub Merfolk (they don't have removal, and will not be able to cast Plague with it in play), BGw Survival/GWsurvival (crappy manabase gets crappier), and Rock (again, it will make it hard for them to cast Plague/Deed, and they have a terible manabase), and off coures, against the usuals: Lands, Landstill, Dark Depths...
Is it worth it?
Would it be good against WStax?

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

What do you guys think about Magus of the Moon in today's meta?
I was thinking about bringing it in against Ub Merfolk (they don't have removal, and will not be able to cast Plague with it in play), BGw Survival/GWsurvival (crappy manabase gets crappier), and Rock (again, it will make it hard for them to cast Plague/Deed, and they have a terible manabase), and off coures, against the usuals: Lands, Landstill, Dark Depths...
Is it worth it?
Would it be good against WStax?

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Why Magus of the Moon? It's a 2/2 non-goblin creature (which can be easily removed). Blood Moon is an enchantment for the same effect and manacost, and pretty much harder to be removed... Moreover, they usually bring creature hate against goblins in game 2 and 3 (omg, i'm a genius).

In my opinion, if you want some moon effect, just play some Blood Moons.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Why Magus of the Moon? It's a 2/2 non-goblin creature (which can be easily removed). Blood Moon is an enchantment for the same effect and manacost, and pretty much harder to be removed... Moreover, they usually bring creature hate against goblins in game 2 and 3 (omg, i'm a genius).

In my opinion, if you want some moon effect, just play some Blood Moons.

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No, you are not.
Have you read the decks I want to bring it in against? What kind of removal are you talking about?
I don't know if you notice, but Blood Moon isn't a goblin too, so you can't really use that as an argument.

Magus of the Moon is better in the MU's I want it, because
1- It can be Vialed in. So, it wont get countered, and it hits plays immediately. When you activate Vial, and they say ok, you put Magus into play. Then, the Merfolk player, or Landstill, or whatever, wont be able to float the mana from its duals to cast their removal spells.
2- It is a 2/2. Guess what it does. Swings.
Edit: Also, next time you could actually try to answer ANY question that have been asked.

hey guys how many ports should should you run 3 or 4?

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Originally Posted by dethangel666

hey guys how many ports should should you run 3 or 4?

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The current trend seems to be:

Mono Red - 3

R/B or R/G - 4

R/B/G - 2 to 4

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

I've tested Blood Moon, and it has been useful against some matches, not all of them. Dunno if they worth to be on sideboard.

I don't personally like Warren Instigator (he's a beast, tho), because to play them, you should drop some gray lands (mainly Rishadan Ports). Mana denial is somewhat better than explosiveness in my opinion.

Vexing Shusher is mainly to fight CounterTop if you get a really bad start, or playing over your chalice. It's a weak slot too.

Leyline of the Void is the best GY hate, but it has it's weakness (topdecking/ringleader). I like it, because you can just drop it and stop that T1 combo or preparation (e.g.: swamp -> dark ritual -> entomb -> exhume), or even a dredge, perhaps. The problem with the artifact based GY hate is that every deck that relies heavily on GY (Dredge, Reanimator, Loam) use Nature's Claim. Leyline can at least delay them a little bit.

Maybe I'll drop the Shusher to add a Goblin Tinkerer (to side in with TukTuk), since I've been in a little trouble against artifacts lately.

For my meta, I think the sb should be like:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
2x Anarchy
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Tinkerer

Maybe a Goblin Pyromancer...

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Hey, your sideboard is looking a lot better. But regarding Blood Moon, what I meant was side it in on occasion. Not all of the time against one deck but randomly against decks that might not expect it. It ends games. If you can play one card that says, "target player scoops them up," Blood Moon will be that card.

I'm not saying play four, three or two Warren Instigators, I'm saying play one. Play it in the Vexing Shusher slot. It'll be a lot better because he's Goblin Lackey number 5 and 6 and he poses as the same threat as Vexing Shusher except he's faster and a problem right away as oppposed to Vexing Shusher who's a problem, eventually.

Black Leyline is pretty good, but it is lazy. This is why Tomoharu Saito didn't play any Leyline of the Void in his black fish deck at GP.. whatever it was Columbus? Yeah, GP Columbus. He opted to play Tormod's Crypt because Crypt is proactive and takes skills. Not only this, but anti hate is less effective because it can just sit in your hand.

Tinker is alright. He's fairly slow though. I wouldn't rely on him to get rid of equpiment, but if there are other things that bother you, he's quite helpful. Pyromancer is the bomb. I use him in any board that I can't fill (although that's rare). I side him in randomly against Zoo and that gets pretty funny when suddenly everything is as scary as Piledriver.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Seriously, did you even read my last post?? It answers every question you have.

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No, I didn't. You were talking to someone else and I didn't want to butt in. By the way, these aren't questions. They are statements. I am stating that Leyline of the Void is bad, I am stating that Instigator is better than Shusher and I am stating that Pyrokinesis as a 3-of is enough against Zoo.

Pyrokinsis is fine if you don't board out your regular removal. You board out Lightning Bolt like that other guy said. If you didn't you wouldn't need 4. One Pyrokinesis will take out survival's creature-based mana source. If any others come up, your regular removal can handle it. You can play 4 if you want to draw it that badly. I personally refuse to dilute my deck of Goblins more than I already have to.

Vexing Shusher is not a great idea against Counterbalance decks. For starters, we don't really need hate against Counterbalance, but if we did bring in something, we should bring in more Goblin Lackeys in the form for Warren Instigator instead of Vexing Shusher which only makes our spells more expensive. Either way though, Shusher and Instigator are going to meet a Swords to Plowshare, so it doesn't matter. Why would I need to play through my own Chalice? Instigator brings them in for me and it suppliments my Lackey.

Leyline of the Void is horrible in mono-red goblins. You said it yourself. It is useless outside of Turn 1. Artifact 'yard hate is not. Leyline has to be on the table to be effective. Artifact based graveyard hate doesn't and therefore isn't really effected by bounce or Nature's Claim. You just drop it and pop it. Artifact based graveyard hate is about skill. It's about timing. Leyline of the Void is about laziness

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Could you please explain what you mean by that*?
And how is any other GY hate different from Leyline when you reveal it in you Ringleader?

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No ways to hardcast your Leyline? Some people would call that trivial....

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Originally Posted by dethangel666

hey guys how many ports should should you run 3 or 4?

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Either is fine. It depends on list though. Most lists go down to 3 now since there are more R mana symbols because of Goblin Chieftain. I myself love Rishadan Port but am also forced to go to 3 replacing the fourth port with a Mountain. Three pretty much guarentees one every game where as four, you might get 2 every game.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Magus of the Moon is better in the MU's I want it, because
1- It can be Vialed in. So, it wont get countered, and it hits plays immediately. When you activate Vial, and they say ok, you put Magus into play. Then, the Merfolk player, or Landstill, or whatever, wont be able to float the mana from its duals to cast their removal spells.
2- It is a 2/2. Guess what it does. Swings.
Edit: Also, next time you could actually try to answer ANY question that have been asked.

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All fair points. I've actually been meaning to try this but I only have 1x right now, so I haven't bothered. It would seem to have the same effect as Blood Moon. I would actually play it over Blood Moon for the same reasons. It comes in through Vial so they can't float mana and it swings which I like.

I'm not too sure about its effectiveness against BGw though since those decks often pack Hierachs and Birds as extra ways to produce mana. Alternatively removing them is an argument.

I think it would be viable much to the same effect as Blood Moon. Although would it be better than other cards like Pyrokinesis vs their Creature Based Mana sources or Vexing Shusher/Instigator vs their Counterspells, I'm not too sure... As an out to Plague, it is very strong against UB Fish, but the rest, highly doubt it, since they'll fetch basic swamp to guarentee it's entry into play

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Originally Posted by jin

All fair points. I've actually been meaning to try this but I only have 1x right now, so I haven't bothered. It would seem to have the same effect as Blood Moon. I would actually play it over Blood Moon for the same reasons. It comes in through Vial so they can't float mana and it swings which I like.

I'm not too sure about its effectiveness against BGw though since those decks often pack Hierachs and Birds as extra ways to produce mana. Alternatively removing them is an argument.

I think it would be viable much to the same effect as Blood Moon. Although would it be better than other cards like Pyrokinesis vs their Creature Based Mana sources or Vexing Shusher/Instigator vs their Counterspells, I'm not too sure... As an out to Plague, it is very strong against UB Fish, but the rest, highly doubt it, since they'll fetch basic swamp to guarentee it's entry into play

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- Against Bgw Survival, 'd bring in Pyroknesis AND Magus of the Moon. That way I can handle all their mana sources, and don't have to worry about bringing in Needle or Nature's Claim.

-Right about Rock, but I'd only bring them in if their list run only nonbasics, like Junk. Than it wold be gamebreaking.

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Originally Posted by jin

Black Leyline is pretty good, but it is lazy. This is why Tomoharu Saito didn't play any Leyline of the Void in his black fish deck at GP.. whatever it was Columbus? Yeah, GP Columbus. He opted to play Tormod's Crypt because Crypt is proactive and takes skills.

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Saito didnt play it because Merfolk is totally different from Goblins and has totally different interaction with the decks it uses hate against.
You need much more skill to play with Leyline cause oftentimes you have to win without it. I even use my Ringeleaders to stack them on bottom of Library/make sure that I dont draw them later on.

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Originally Posted by jin

Not only this, but anti hate is less effective because it can just sit in your hand.

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Jesus....best way to face anti-graveyard hate: Keep Crypt in you hand and till they go off :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by jin

No, I didn't. You were talking to someone else and I didn't want to butt in. By the way, these aren't questions. They are statements. I am stating that Leyline of the Void is bad, I am stating that Instigator is better than Shusher and I am stating that Pyrokinesis as a 3-of is enough against Zoo.

Pyrokinsis is fine if you don't board out your regular removal. You board out Lightning Bolt like that other guy said. If you didn't you wouldn't need 4. One Pyrokinesis will take out survival's creature-based mana source. If any others come up, your regular removal can handle it. You can play 4 if you want to draw it that badly. I personally refuse to dilute my deck of Goblins more than I already have to.

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Ignorance Kitteh is ignoring your circle argumentation.

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Originally Posted by jin

Vexing Shusher is not a great idea against Counterbalance decks. For starters, we don't really need hate against Counterbalance, but if we did bring in something, we should bring in more Goblin Lackeys in the form for Warren Instigator instead of Vexing Shusher which only makes our spells more expensive. Either way though, Shusher and Instigator are going to meet a Swords to Plowshare, so it doesn't matter. Why would I need to play through my own Chalice? Instigator brings them in for me and it suppliments my Lackey.

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Instigator doesn't bring in Nature's claim, Lightning Bolts and Aether Vial.
+ It doesnt make our precious Kinesis counter-proof.

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Originally Posted by jin

Leyline of the Void is horrible in mono-red goblins. You said it yourself. It is useless outside of Turn 1. Artifact 'yard hate is not. Leyline has to be on the table to be effective. Artifact based graveyard hate doesn't and therefore isn't really effected by bounce or Nature's Claim. You just drop it and pop it. Artifact based graveyard hate is about skill. It's about timing. Leyline of the Void is about laziness

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Please quote me when I said that Leyline is bad in Mono R.

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No ways to hardcast your Leyline? Some people would call that trivial....

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Yeah... and some people would call "hardcasting creatures" trivial. I personally favor not to pay any mana for my GY hate and my creatures (Lackey and Vial save the day >.>).

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

- Against Bgw Survival, 'd bring in Pyroknesis AND Magus of the Moon. That way I can handle all their mana sources, and don't have to worry about bringing in Needle or Nature's Claim.

-Right about Rock, but I'd only bring them in if their list run only nonbasics, like Junk. Than it wold be gamebreaking.

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I don't consider needle or nature's claim viable against vengevine survival, but yes pyrokinesis would come in. I guess it'll work out for you. Yes, moon effects break games that way.. LOL.

Either way, I agree that Magus does deserve some testing. I really wish they made him a Goblin.. LOL...I'm greedy.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Saito didnt play it because Merfolk is totally different from Goblins and has totally different interaction with the decks it uses hate against.
You need much more skill to play with Leyline cause oftentimes you have to win without it. I even use my Ringeleaders to stack them on bottom of Library/make sure that I dont draw them later on.

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It takes more skill to mull into Leyline of the Void, riiight. Please elaborate besides your ability to move them from the top of your library with Ringleader (by chance) to the bottom of the library. Sorry I have to add, do you stop using Matrons to keep this strategy up? Win without.. your sideboard cards,.. so uhh,.. why sideboard?

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Jesus....best way to face anti-graveyard hate: Keep Crypt in you hand and till they go off :rolleyes:

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I think this is very viable to keep your graveyard hate away from Nature's Claim

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Ignorance Kitteh is ignoring your circle argumentation.

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LOL, sorry I forgot to put <SARCASM></SARCASM> for people that don't understand the idea. Let me put it this way. I'm mocking the idea that people feel they need four in the deck because they take out their own removal to put it in.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Instigator doesn't bring in Nature's claim, Lightning Bolts and Aether Vial.
+ It doesnt make our precious Kinesis counter-proof.

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This is mono-red, we don't play nature's claim. I play gempalms and stingers. I don't play lightning bolts. I wouldn't pay 2 for lightning bolt anyway. Are you serious? Do you really play goblins? Why would my Instigator need to bring in Vial? Would your Lackey need to bring in Vial?

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Please quote me when I said that Leyline is bad in Mono R.

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I'm sorry? Did you forget what you said? Do you think because you can do quotes that your arguments become more influential? I am aware that you said casting Leylines in Rb is useless. Again, a good reason not to play Leyline. You can cast the artifact hate whenever you want and it is still effective. Leyline can neither be casted midgame and even it it could, it is now no longer effective. If you say it takes skill to play Leyline because you have to win without it, then why not just not play it? <SARCASM> That way you can play 4 Vexing Shushers and 1 Nature's Claim. </SARCASM>

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Yeah... and some people would call "hardcasting creatures" trivial. I personally favor not to pay any mana for my GY hate and my creatures (Lackey and Vial save the day >.>).

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Yes, Tormod's Crypt does not cost mana. Thanks for backing me up on this.

Your sideboard choice is your own prerogative, but don't try to discredit me by quoting me and then adding your little subtexts as a form of mockery. Your efforts were in vain as you have neither discouraged me from posting nor proven yourself to be correct. You provided no valid arguments outside of the examples that you provided for supporting Vexing Shusher, albiet a weak argument.

Having played goblins for awhile, I'm sure you will know that Goblins is neither afraid of counterspells nor need to worry about them, so why waste time with these silly tricks? The counterspell people know that the things to be countered are Lackey/AEther Vial. THey will not save countermagic for your precious Pyrokinesis. You being a goblin player while holding a Vexing Shusher and an AEther Vial in your hand will NOT wait until the third turn to drop your AEther Vial, so why are we even having this conversation?

I don't understand what you mean by hardcasting creatures as Trivial. A major of the decks in Legacy use Vial and Vengevines, but another majority pays mana, so.. I don't see your argument here. I guess show and tell is an argument here but I don't see how that relates to Leyline of the Void sitting in your hand having only one out (mulling into it) VS an Emrakul sitting in your hand that has at least 4x show and tells and 4 other outs.

I'm sorry, I just can't continue. None of your arguments make sense. It doesn't make sense why you would play 4x Pyrokinesis and then board out your Lightning Bolts when you can just play 3x Pyrokinesis and keep your Lightning Bolts. It doesn't make sense why you would play Leyline and expect to win without it. I can only see the argument for Shusher and I addressed that already.

You can continue with your quoting now, but next time please present some valid arguments instead of silly commentaries.

PS: I'm sorry if this post seemed unprofessional, it was a parody of his post.

Leyline of the Void - Still terrible against everything but Dredge. Crypt or Faerie Macabre are much much much better for the simple fact that you can still play them if you draw into them.

Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon - Not worth the SB slots for 2 reasons. 1. Slow slow slow slow slow. 2. When you board it in G2 your opponent already knows you're playing Wasteland, and they'll be fetching basics accordingly. Basically you're defeating yourself by siding in cards your opponent already is planning to play around. Not a good idea.

Vexing Shusher/Goblin Tinkerer - Neither are amazing by any means, but both have reusable abilities and are goblins. That makes them fetchable, cheatable, and Ringleaderable. So when you really need them, they'll be there. Also, I'm a fan of big, free spells, like Pulverize and Reverent Silence. Being able to drop one of these down and make it uncounterable can blow out matches, and Shusher has proven very useful in that regard.

When it comes to cards like utility goblins and graveyard hate it's important to remember that there is always an exchange between Power, Speed, and Flexibility. Yes, Leyline has the Power and Speed, but is severly lacking in flexibility. Tinkerer is slower than Shattering Spree, but is more Flexible because of its synergies within the deck. Ultimately, I try to side for flexibilty.

Here is the deck I plan on running this weekend-

4x AEther Vial

3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Stingscourger
2x Warren Instigator

2x Warren Weirding

1x Arid Mesa
2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
6x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Earwig Squad
3x Extirpate
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pulverize
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyrokinesis
1x Vexing Shusher

I'm trying to move away from sideboards that run multiples of everything because it's very important to not dilute a goblin deck too far. You can still win G2 and 3 by just being faster and more aggressive. My SB is designed with answers to the MUs that I think are least favorable, while trying to provide the most flexibility.

COMBO- Chalice, Earwig Squad, Mindbreak, Needle, Pyroblast, Tinkerer
SURVIVAL - Extirpate, Perish, Needle
AGGRO- Pyrokinesis, Perish
MERFOLK- Tinkerer, Shusher, Pyroblast, Pyrokinesis
AFFINITY (which has been showing up in my meta recently)- Pulverize, Tinkerer, Pyrokinesis
You get the idea.