[Deck] The Rock

Good report T-101. Couple questions/remarks:

-Good god, 3 Sculler, 4 1 mana discard, 4 Hymns. What about sliding in some of that good ol' Sylvan?

-Did you ever use Maze of Ith? I'm going to be swapping Maze/Monastery for Thespian Depths, but I can't tell if I want to completely cut Maze since my board is tight.

-Do you think Golgari Charm could come main board? The winning Esper Blade list ran a ton of sweepers to deal with TNN, and I think Golgari Charm's modes of -1/-1 (TNN), Regen (Engineered Explosives/Supreme Verdict), and enchantment destruction (Rest in Peace) can definitely help out there. Granted, I do like the thought of Diabolic Edict better in overall matchups.

-I think you can safely cut Bojuka Bog and Thrun from the board and replace with Thalia, Nihil Spellbomb, and/or Ethersworn Canonist.

I always want to have Sylvan somewhere when I start. I have had good results with the card, and Every Junk player can vouch for it. It rarely makes my final list though. Right now my 2 primary concerns are Blue cantripy combo decks, and U/x Delver decks (combining BUG, RUG, and UWR). Vs the combo decks, its insane, but I like having more proactive stuff. Discard directly hurts them, while Bob and friends provide a clock. Sylvan also seems so bad vs the delver decks. It does zero stuff when you cast it, requires 4 life to break even, and 8 life to get advantage. I'm not giving the card selection enough credit, but the life payment + zero impact the turn its played turns me off. I wiuld like to find room in the side for it though.

Maze overperformed, and I like having the card. It was on Germ/Jitte carrier duty for much of the day. I played vs. what I think is an a normally high number of stoneforges, and against SF, Maze is awesome. I also untapped a lot of my guys post dmg (or pre vs Nemesis). Swinging with 2 Goyfs into a Nemesis, untapped the one that gets blocked can save you some life if they have another thing to swing with. I'll be keeping 1 main for the time being. I do want to test Thespian Depths though. The 20/20 flier random wins might be worth it. Still, stopping Jitte counters is very sweet.

I do think a Charm or 2 could come main. Next time I run Junk I'll have at least 1 main. You are exactly right in that that there are several mainboarded cards/plans that Charm is strong against. In addition to what you mentioned, there's Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt, Counterbalance, Sneak Attack (not really likely to get hosed by charm, but still), Elves, Goblins, Moat, and probably more.

As for Bog and Tormod's I'll probably play a Canonist and Thalia n their place next time.

Good point on anti-TNN uses for Maze. I have loved Tower of the Magistrate as my answer for equipment carriers, but i wonder if it would do well enough in those situations versus a Maze (also considering Thespian Depths in there)

I have run Tower in the sideboard in the past. I kind of have an unhealthy obsession with sweet lands, and often try to cram as many toolbox lands as I can get away with when I'm playing Knight.

There are times when Tower is better, but I think Maze will often be a more useful card. Maze gives you Knight Trix on the attack, lets you chump attack into Nemesis, and stops most other guys.

If there's a high level of Stoneforge or Affinity in your meta though, Tower can really wreck those decks.

i thought maze does not work on nemesis, as it cannot be targeted by maze

generally it is true that maze of ith is awesome against equipment-deck, but it does not work with TNN (sadly), so we lose a bit of an angle there
also tower of magistrat, while better against equipment deck, but worse against the rest of the field as maze would be, does not work on TNN, again because TNN cannot be targeted and given protection from artifacts.

i think the best angle of attack we have against TNN is Golgari Charm / Toxic Deluge / Liliana of the Veil / other sac-effects and other sweeper

golgari charm being one of the best here because of its versatility and instant speed, and liliana would be placed second IMO

He meant uncapping the guy that nemisis blocks to prevent damage from happening.

ah, now i get it

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary

Removal:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
Tutors:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
Discard:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
SFM Friends:
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Options:
1 Life from the Loam

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland

SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari - agains popular DeathBlade
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist - combo killer
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - like Canonist + great vs aggro deck
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring - SnT / Jace deck
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction - grave control
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor - help us to get right puzzle
SB: 1 Engineered Plague - merfolk / elf / goblin / TNN xD
SB: 2 Golgari Charm - flexible instant speed great vs Enchants / TNN / D&T

this is my version of junk but still consider on playing 0 GSZ and stay on strategy 4 mystic 4 shamans 4 KotR 4 BOB and add more removal. what do you think which version is more competitive. this or without GSZ?

Tutors are more consistent and straight cards are more powerful. The tutors give you options and redundancy at the cost of speed i.e. tutor for a goyf cost 3 when you could just draw the goyf and play it on turn 2.

That being said, I am of the opinion that and non blue deck that plays green better have a damn good reason not to be playing 4 deathrite shaman and 4 green sun's zenith. Turn 1 you can get dryad arbor, turn two you can get shaman and with three mana the world is your burrito(teeg, ooze, pridemage, goyf). I feel it is the only way we can keep up with the brainstorm decks in redundancy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

That being said, I am of the opinion that and non blue deck that plays green better have a damn good reason not to be playing 4 deathrite shaman and 4 green sun's zenith. Turn 1 you can get dryad arbor, turn two you can get shaman and with three mana the world is your burrito(teeg, ooze, pridemage, goyf). I feel it is the only way we can keep up with the brainstorm decks in redundancy.

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So... Dark Maverick?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Tutors are more consistent and straight cards are more powerful. The tutors give you options and redundancy at the cost of speed i.e. tutor for a goyf cost 3 when you could just draw the goyf and play it on turn 2.

That being said, I am of the opinion that and non blue deck that plays green better have a damn good reason not to be playing 4 deathrite shaman and 4 green sun's zenith. Turn 1 you can get dryad arbor, turn two you can get shaman and with three mana the world is your burrito(teeg, ooze, pridemage, goyf). I feel it is the only way we can keep up with the brainstorm decks in redundancy.

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Its hard for me to find room for all. ok i can cut bojuka and add dryad arbor. but playset shamans and add ooze could be a problem. we can also cut Life from loam and 4th Hymn to put them in bit i feel like LftL is good card in this list. liliana is more powerfull with lands on hand, KotR are bigger with dredge when we want and we can wasteland opponent with no problem.

Lavafrogg please paste this list with your decissions. i am curious how it look.
Ps. Sb is ok?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Tutors are more consistent and straight cards are more powerful. The tutors give you options and redundancy at the cost of speed i.e. tutor for a goyf cost 3 when you could just draw the goyf and play it on turn 2.

That being said, I am of the opinion that and non blue deck that plays green better have a damn good reason not to be playing 4 deathrite shaman and 4 green sun's zenith. Turn 1 you can get dryad arbor, turn two you can get shaman and with three mana the world is your burrito(teeg, ooze, pridemage, goyf). I feel it is the only way we can keep up with the brainstorm decks in redundancy.

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Lavafrogg's got the simple truth of it - No GSZ = faster clock, more aggressive. GSZ = consistency, better long-game, slower.

I also agree with 4 Deathrite for the foreseeable future. GSZ is more of a matter of opinion. The card is insanely powerful, and can shore up many weaknesses, open up access to silver bullets, and lets you get tricky (X=3 bluffing a Knight, they say ok, you get Qasali/Teeg/Ooze). But it can be mana-hungry, which I don't like vs. Wasteland or Show and Tell on turn 2.

Right now, with Delver decks and Combo decks in my crosshairs, I'm opting for speed. Faster Goyfs and Knights means a quicker clock against Delvers. Lots of disruption and a faster clock will ideally slow Combo's plan down until you kill 'em. Also with Toxic Deluge being printed, Gaddock is a touch easier to kill than he was.

If I was expecting more Miracles/BUG control, or didn't have Sneak and Show on my radar as much, I'd probably sleeve up my GSZs again.

Rock/junk had been a deck forever. And will always be a deck
It always comes down to what your meta game looks like. You kind of need to go blind on day one.
Local meta games can be wild.
Some have mostly aggro/"fair" decks like goblins, burn, delver decks, stoneforge decks.
Other meta games are combo heavy, elves, storm, show and tell, dredge.
Some are different, week by week, cuz the players have many decks to choose from.
I like to go with a more open build. 2 up side boards seems to work the best, when going blind.
Your deck seems to be discard heavy. So I would go with a sb that looks like
2 golgari charm
2 diabolic edict
2 scavenging ooze
1 surgical extraction
1 spellbomb
2 pernicious deed
2 maelstrom pulse
1 jitte/sword of fire ice
1 dismember
1 thrun, the last troll
Charm is very good right now
I like to play rock with white, mostly for pridemage, swords, and Lingering souls
I find the white can be very good
hope this helps
Keep me updated on what your meta looks like

this weekend i have GPT Paris and im trying to prepare ass good as i can for this event. i think i can be pair with some Combos (mostly Ant/Elves) and delverd deck. i treat SnT as rare MU this weekend, but i promise i will take some notes from games, results and Sidebording (i am sure that i will make a loot of mistakes with it xD).

i love to play Zenith because he just f*ck CotV. like You said we can do tricks with Converted mana cost and choose lower cost.

Yeasterday when i post my main and sb i test with ANt and i went 12:4 (he win 3 times before sb in 1st turn, and 1 time post sb in turn 1) post board i have so many ideal cards against him that he cant win. we have only discard, teeg, 3 thalia 2 canonist, liliana, shamans, ....no comment;p

And i have 30hours to think about decklist then i put cards in sleeve and drive to city when event start.

About build. i try to build it on blind meta. im sure that GSZ is good. a lot of discard. thanks 4 all for help that you give me ;)

Caleb Durward's latest article had a pretty sweet junk list in it:

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...fine-stagnant/

It shifts focus from being a midrange creature deck to more of a controlling anti-TNN deck.

For easy reference:

Main Deck
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Hero of Bladehold

3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Toxic Deluge

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Duress
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Seal of Primordium

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No Dark Confidant? Dies to Deluge quite easily I guess and you have a somewhat high curve...

The two Seals are...interesting. Good synergy with Liliana to be able to throw out your art/ench hate. Otherwise awkward card.

Bojuka Bog still seems lackluster. Would rather a 2/2 Surgical/Nihil split.

Not a fan of 3x Teeg, Thalia and Canonist are stronger hate bears.

Seal does sound awkward, but as I think about it, it actually seems strong.

1) Pre-emptive answer to equipment. You can throw this down on turn 2 with a Deathrite, and have Daze mana available. Hampers Stoneforge plan, while getting other stuff. Makes TNN less threatening.

2) Puts an enchantment in the yard for goyf (which is one of the types that rarely hits the yard.). If you have seal, you can use its ability to target itself. It fizzles, but the enchant is in the yard to make Goyf bigger. Edge case, but spicy and interesting.

Not sure if I'd find room for Seals before Golgari Charms though... Man that card is sweet.

In some discussion this last week I have also decide that this deck should cut dark confidant. It "might" win every game it stays alive for(and doesn't kill you) but it does not win any games by itself, or really help in any bad matchups.

I'm working but more on this later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

In some discussion this last week I have also decide that this deck should cut dark confidant. It "might" win every game it stays alive for(and doesn't kill you) but it does not win any games by itself, or really help in any bad matchups.

I'm working but more on this later.

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I brought this up several months ago and was thoroughly dismissed--with the exact same points. Dark Confidant is a 2/1. He doesn't -do- anything for you though, he doesn't impact the board or anything like that, he just sort of commonly dies to everything.

I have found it substantially more beneficial to run things like Stoneforge Mystic or Hymn to Tourach in his place--things that actually take the game over or 2-for-1 people. I would also consider running 4 libraries without bobs, but I think jamming a ton of 2-for-1's into the deck is just a better decision. I basically just asked myself: what would I rather have survive a turn, Dark Confidant or Stoneforge Mystic, and I couldn't ever find a reason to not pick Stoneforge Mystic. I think Deathrite, Goyf, Stoneforge, Knight, and either Green Sun's Zenith + 1 Master of the Wild Hunt (If you haven't tried this card out, you're wrong) or Lingering Souls + Cabal Therapy is basically the way to go.

A friend is testing Master of the Wild Hunt out in his Dark Maverick build--and after killing off all the Mom's and Knight's, you'd be surprised at how insanely fast MOWH (affectionally named, 'Moe') takes the game over. Card is batshit insane in any creature matchup.

Hi,
Me and Lavafrogg we build deck for GPT Paris this weekend. I am sure that if God of Draws dont cheat me like flood/screw i should be in top ;) i promise that i will write down my MUps and post them here;) now i dont want to post list but in sutterday at night i will rewrite my notes from A4 into post ;)

Keep finger crossed for me ;)