[DTB] Vial Goblins

@ jin:

Seriously, I don't want to discourage people from posting and I'm sorry if you felt offend by my post.
I just wanted to make my point clear on those topics. Plus, I found your argumentation not logical (e.g. Saito playing Tromod's Crypt over leyline is not a good argument against for or against either one of them).
I guess we can leave this discussion at this point because it seems that both of us can't make our points any clearer and still both of us don't seem to be satisfied with the answers they got.

Regarding this thread my intention is always to keep discussions running - even if they are somewhat "hot tempered".

Guys, take a chill pill and for the love of the holy Goblins, respect eachother. Remember, it's just a game.

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Originally Posted by antonbystedt

Guys, take a chill pill and for the love of the holy Goblins, respect eachother. Remember, it's just a game.

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You should say that to brazilian people about soccer, and see how they react... =p

Taking back the Graveyard Hate topic...

LotV has its problems with flexibility, but is still a free powerful anti-gy card, which can be dropped turn 0. This last factor, can stop some high speed graveyard combos (like reanimator decks). It's really a bomb against Dredge (which have a lot of speed also), since their mana-base is really poor (gold lands at low counting) and can't play arround threats easily. Faerie Macabre is still a good option, despite the horrible range. Crypt is another free option, but it seems to be a little not effective (I did a few tests with it and I didn't really like it). Relic of Progenitus deserves a retry, because a lot of people are using Skirk Prospector, which can easily get the floating mana to trigger the ability.

All GY hates are fine nowdays, but I still think Leyline of the Void is MVP.

And lol ScatmanX, I'm brazilian and I don't love soccer, it's not simple as that.

When I was thinking about GoboLord's choices in sideboard, I weighed Leyline against Tormod's Crypt, Faerie Macabre, and Ravenous Trap. Graveyard hate is mostly ineffective against Survival, as finding an answer is simple, and in many cases they can ignore it. So the goal of graveyard hate would be to fight Loam decks, Reanimator if anyone still plays it, and Dredge. I'm only considering free hate pieces, as they don't disrupt your gameplan while simultaneously disrupting theirs.

Faerie Macabre is (moderately) resistant to discard, as you can activate it in response, but it's marginal against Dredge and only really shines when fighting Reanimator, which is hardly played anymore. It seems like it could be strong in nailing Life from the Loam, but past that Lands may continue to develop sans Loam and Aggro Loam can just beat with Goyf, Crusher, and utilize Bob for card advantage.

Ravenous Trap is very narrow; it's designed to fight Dredge, but it's fairly weak to discard, which Dredge employs as a countermeasure to hate. You may blow them out game 2, but game 3 expect it to be therapied away with nary a chance to activate it.

Tormod's Crypt can evade discard by being preemptively played; however, they will Grudge or Claim it away, forcing you to activate it at an inopportune time. Furthermore, it's one of the most common hate pieces used against Dredge, so if they think you're sandbagging it, expect a Cabal Therapy to come your way.

Leyline is decent against Loam and cripples Dredge until it's dealt with, and is completely resistant to discard.It shuts down Reanimator, though RB Goblins have many outs to whatever target they bring back, and even Mono-R can deal with an Iona. However, this deck is hardly played anymore, so it may not be worth consideration. Leyline cannot be recasted in the context of the this discussion, and requires you to mulligan to it, forcing you to throw away otherwise strong hands because you can't simply draw into your hate. However, I believe that would only be a problem in the Lands MU. Beating Dredge game 1 is (supposedly) a miracle, so why is it a bad thing to mull to hate? Do you believe the MU will swing wildly in your favor if you have the opportunity to draw into your hate? Even when considering your draw engine throws it to the bottom? It's because of this that I'm sticking with Leyline.

As a disclaimer, I will admit that this is entirely theorycraft, however, much of it is based on opinions voiced by respected posters and their personal experience.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

And lol ScatmanX, I'm brazilian and I don't love soccer, it's not simple as that.

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Eu também. =]

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

SIDEBOARD
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Earwig Squad
3x Extirpate
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pulverize
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyrokinesis
1x Vexing Shusher

I'm trying to move away from sideboards that run multiples of everything because it's very important to not dilute a goblin deck too far. You can still win G2 and 3 by just being faster and more aggressive. My SB is designed with answers to the MUs that I think are least favorable, while trying to provide the most flexibility.

COMBO- Chalice, Earwig Squad, Mindbreak, Needle, Pyroblast, Tinkerer
SURVIVAL - Extirpate, Perish, Needle
AGGRO- Pyrokinesis, Perish
MERFOLK- Tinkerer, Shusher, Pyroblast, Pyrokinesis
AFFINITY (which has been showing up in my meta recently)- Pulverize, Tinkerer, Pyrokinesis
You get the idea.

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Interesting sideboard. I love sideboards with this kind of flexibility, but I was never able to do it with the Goblin Sideboard. Have you tested this out yet? You could also consider moving the extirpate to the combo match up as that gives you hand intell and also remove potential card advantage, not to mention they might just scoop. I wonder how'd you do against Zoo without War Marshals....

You bring up a good point about Blood Moon and that they'll play around it. Some decks can't really play around Blood Moon though - like Lands and Landstill. But like ScatmanX said, it could work against blackFish's Plagues. I guess that's a small percentage of the field.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

@ jin:

Seriously, I don't want to discourage people from posting and I'm sorry if you felt offend by my post.
I just wanted to make my point clear on those topics. Plus, I found your argumentation not logical (e.g. Saito playing Tromod's Crypt over leyline is not a good argument against for or against either one of them).
I guess we can leave this discussion at this point because it seems that both of us can't make our points any clearer and still both of us don't seem to be satisfied with the answers they got.

Regarding this thread my intention is always to keep discussions running - even if they are somewhat "hot tempered".

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Who wouldn't be with your rolling eyes and your condescending tone. Please don't focus on one aspect of my argument. My argument is that Tormod's Crypt is both playable mid game (either by strategy or by colour) and is less susceptible to anti-graveyard hate than Leyline of the Void. I admit that it is harder to play around Leyline but I believe it is a weaker choice because of the ability to predict your game plan early on (due to it being in play after mulligan) and for the opponent to remove it accordingly.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

You should say that to brazilian people about soccer, and see how they react... =p

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LOL...

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Originally Posted by bakofried

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Typical Ichorid board (since this seems to be the main concern) is 1-3 Chain of Vapors, 0-1 Wispmare, 0-4 Nature's Claim, 0-4 Rays of Revelation. Not all of them together of course. It is usually some combination of them ie:

1 Chain of Vapors
1 Wispmare
3 rays of revelation
...

or

3 chain of vapors
4 rays of revelation
...

or
3 nature's claim
1 wispmare
2 rays of revelation
...

Does anyone see my point? Leyline isn't exactly scary when they average 5 outs to your problem. The strategy is to careful study into them, so they'll draw it. I myself go with a miniture version of jrw1985 and Gabriel Nassif (my sideboarding idol) where I diversify my graveyard hate in some combination of Macrebe (I don't like her that much), Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus (I play mono coloured). This was to play around Cabal Therapy. I didn't like Ravenous Trap..

But that's not necessarily a fair comparison - especially taking into account you see Ancient Grudge to fight your artifacts as well. And those Claims fight your artifact outs. Furthermore, you're not taking into account Cabal Therapies, which can hit your artifacts but not Leylines, and lists often run 3-4 of those, with the rest in the side if they're not running the full 4 main. So any amount of hate for your artifacts the opponent packs also needs to take into account Therapy. Ultimately, this is why I like GoboLord's permanent based solution, because it is stronger vs. the discard combo decks, dredge included, pack MD.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

But that's not necessarily a fair comparison - especially taking into account you see Ancient Grudge to fight your artifacts as well. And those Claims fight your artifact outs. Furthermore, you're not taking into account Cabal Therapies, which can hit your artifacts but not Leylines, and lists often run 3-4 of those, with the rest in the side if they're not running the full 4 main. So any amount of hate for your artifacts the opponent packs also needs to take into account Therapy. Ultimately, this is why I like GoboLord's permanent based solution, because it is stronger vs. the discard combo decks, dredge included, pack MD.

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The strategic difference between Leyline and Artifact type hate I have already addressed. I know they pack Ancient Grudge, but Artifact type hate allows me to be LESS susceptible to it because I can keep it in my hand. You must realize this because you talk about discard. I am also aware that 4x Cabal Therapy is pretty much manditory for Dredge decks. That being said, Artifact type graveyard hate has the OPTION (and that is the key point here) in combatting both discard (by playing it) and combatting anti-hate cards (by keeping it in your hand). Leyline doesn't get this option. Leyline is just in play and the opponent has to deal with it or not. In this sense, flexibility (options) is more valuable than raw power - Leyline of the Void.

My major argument isn't the advocation of Tormod's Crypt over Leyline of the Void. My major concern is that Leyline takes up four slots and has the same weakness in all four slots. I would much rather have a more versatile card like Tormod's Crypt supplimented with other cards like Relic of Progenitus, Faerie Macabre, etc. to play around discard strategies as we well as pernament based solutions to which most decks can find a way out of.

Playing Leyline of the Void in a mono red deck to fight Ichorid is like playing goyf in a mono red deck to fight Zoo. Could you, yes; would you, no.

PS: Sorry if my previous argument felt one sided, I wanted to get to my point quickly.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

But that's not necessarily a fair comparison - especially taking into account you see Ancient Grudge to fight your artifacts as well. And those Claims fight your artifact outs. Furthermore, you're not taking into account Cabal Therapies, which can hit your artifacts but not Leylines, and lists often run 3-4 of those, with the rest in the side if they're not running the full 4 main. So any amount of hate for your artifacts the opponent packs also needs to take into account Therapy. Ultimately, this is why I like GoboLord's permanent based solution, because it is stronger vs. the discard combo decks, dredge included, pack MD.

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However, if it's game2 and you're sandbagging a tormod's crypt in your hand, I highly doubt the first thing they will Cabal Therapy for is Tormod's Crypt (given that you're on the play). I play both monoR goblins and LEDless Dredge, and I rarely lose to dredge with goblins and I'm only running 3 pieces of GY hate.

I played my first time against Vengi Survival this weekend. I won the match 2-1, first game he gets turn 2 surv and runs me over. Second game, I side in Leylines, start with Leyline mountain Lackey. He hardcast 1 vengivine that game and that was it. He says 'well i didn't know you had leylines' and grabs his sideboard again. So i side out the leylines for 3 pyro's and a perish. I face a turn 2 survival again racing against my red army including a piledriver. Pyrokinesis cleans his blockers and piledriver does what hes supposed to do. His last turn he can still kill me if het topdecks a forest... which he doesn't. After hearing all the fuzz about the deck i gotta say that i'm a bit unimpressed; it seems that its beatable by sideboard cards and you are even able to race it just like most other decks.

Hey guys,

Next sunday there is a local tournament I'm participating. I expect a lot of AnT and TES in the metagame, but don't really know what strategy to pull off. I understand Chalice of the Void @ 0 is really good, but most TES and AnY builds play anti-hate like Chain of Vapor and the likes. What are your strategies to win this match-up?

Grt, Tom

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Hey guys,

Next sunday there is a local tournament I'm participating. I expect a lot of AnT and TES in the metagame, but don't really know what strategy to pull off. I understand Chalice of the Void @ 0 is really good, but most TES and AnY builds play anti-hate like Chain of Vapor and the likes. What are your strategies to win this match-up?

Grt, Tom

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Mountain lackey go!

seems to do the trick. Also: Mountain, lackey, crypt GO! makes them shiver since they can't go for ill-gotten gains that way and have to go odd ways or T1-T2 kills to win (which are most likely to fast for an chalice @ 1 as well)

You could go chalice @ 0 as wel in stead of crypt. but I found out that lackey starts are the most effective ones.

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Hey guys,

Next sunday there is a local tournament I'm participating. I expect a lot of AnT and TES in the metagame, but don't really know what strategy to pull off. I understand Chalice of the Void @ 0 is really good, but most TES and AnY builds play anti-hate like Chain of Vapor and the likes. What are your strategies to win this match-up?

Grt, Tom

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* Wasteland
* Rishadan port
* early Lackeys (obviously)
* Chalice of the Void

Unless you face Pratical joke's Ub-"basiclands-only"-ANT-list you should stick to Manadenial, especially when you are up against TES

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Originally Posted by practical joke

Mountain lackey go!

seems to do the trick. Also: Mountain, lackey, crypt GO! makes them shiver since they can't go for ill-gotten gains that way and have to go odd ways or T1-T2 kills to win (which are most likely to fast for an chalice @ 1 as well)

You could go chalice @ 0 as wel in stead of crypt. but I found out that lackey starts are the most effective ones.

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Do you really think grave-hate is that good against Combo?
What are the cards you fear the most when playing against us? (apart from Mountain and Lackey...)

I don't know if graveyard hate against ANT and TES is really effective, since they usually use Ill-Gotten Gains when their Ad Nauseam isn't able to grab a tutor or a wincon, or when they don't have a good storm counting. I don't know about the Goblins matchup, but ANT/TES don't abuse of Ill-Gotten Gains in many matchups (FoW/Daze/Stifle danger maybe). Still, it's a really fast card against Goblins.

Perhaps a chalice @1 or @0 and a lackey start is good enough.

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Hey guys,

Next sunday there is a local tournament I'm participating. I expect a lot of AnT and TES in the metagame, but don't really know what strategy to pull off. I understand Chalice of the Void @ 0 is really good, but most TES and AnY builds play anti-hate like Chain of Vapor and the likes. What are your strategies to win this match-up?

Grt, Tom

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If you expect a lot of ANT and TES, you should not play goblins if you can help it. It would be better to play Merfolk, CounterTop, or something else that has a better matchup. If you do not have the option of playing a different deck (say you only own the cards for Goblins and not other decks), you are probably in for a tough day. As was said, you really want to focus on mana-denial cards such as Port and Wasteland.

In most matchups (and against an unknown), you will usually drop a Vial before a Lackey if you have them both in hand on turn one. Against combo, however, you should drop your Lackey first and try to win as fast as possible. It would help to practice goldfishing the deck so that you can improve your chances in a race.

There's also a few things that you can do with your deck. First, you should maindeck some Skirk Prospector. He will help you make your deck faster. Turn three goldfishes become more likely. You will cut some of the removal slots. Don't play Sharpshooter. As for your sideboard, you might even devote more than four slots to the combo matchup if you expect to see a lot of it and don't have the option of playing a different deck. Chalice of the Void is recommended, because you can hurt them by dropping it for zero. Hate that uses significant mana, such as Thorn of Amethyst is not so good because it keeps you from casting goblins and slows down your goldfish. I would recommend Chalice and Mindbreak Trap (or a combo of both) to help you fight combo.

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Hey guys,

Next sunday there is a local tournament I'm participating. I expect a lot of AnT and TES in the metagame, but don't really know what strategy to pull off. I understand Chalice of the Void @ 0 is really good, but most TES and AnY builds play anti-hate like Chain of Vapor and the likes. What are your strategies to win this match-up?

Grt, Tom

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Are you from LA?

Usually the scary starts are the ones involving Lackey and Piledrivers backed by Ports/Wastes.

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Originally Posted by Justin

In most matchups (and against an unknown), you will usually drop a Vial before a Lackey if you have them both in hand on turn one. Against combo, however, you should drop your Lackey first and try to win as fast as possible. It would help to practice goldfishing the deck so that you can improve your chances in a race.

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Interesting, I almost always start with Lackey if I have both in hand. I have two main reasons:

1. A resolved first turn Lackey has more chance of getting through than a 2nd or 3rd turn Lackey which improves the chance of winning.
2. I rather have my lackey countered (fow/daze) than my Vial (and if Lackey isn't countered when playing against control, see 1)

I'm interested to hear other peoples opinions on this topic.

I am a TES player so I tought I would drop a word on the match-up

The key to goblin winning the match is simple, early and heavy pressure and mana denial, if you miss one of the two, chances are your gonna loose.

Chalice@0 is good only if you have pressure. Against goblin we want to go fast, if we try the fast AdN way, most of the time we will have 0 mana floating and we will need to rely on 0-mana artefact to go off after AdN
Chalice@2 is still the best, since it cut all of our tutors, if you can hit 4 mana this one is a no brainer

Also, you got to have Goblin sharpshooter! If you dont, EtW is an easy win against gob, only 10gob for us on T1 is usualy enought to block your lackey and put enought pressure on you to win.

Mindbreak trap dosnt work well, I have faced it a couple time and it never was a factor

Dont keep an average hand, average wont cut it in this M-U, dont be affraid to mulligan.

One final comment (this one is dirty), dont be affraid to mintrick your oponent, combo player tend to be a paranoïd bunch so try and make them beleive you have mindbreak or sharpshooter even if you dont, doing this can easely gain you a turn or even prevent you from seing an EtW.

And like it was mentinned before, if you expect a lot of combo, dont take Goblin