Looking forward to the decklist and writeups.
May your Bobs flip in your favor, and your Hymns hit business.
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Looking forward to the decklist and writeups.
May your Bobs flip in your favor, and your Hymns hit business.
looking forward to your report as well
and if hymn hits a bunch of lands its still fine :P, just use it to screw your opponent wasting him out of the game :P
i have a question for you guys
it happened to me that i played against an opponent with hypergenesis, that misdirected my 1st turn cabal therapy
the question is:
if he uses misdirection on my cabal therapy, does he controll the spell, even if i still get to call which card should be discarded?
if yes, that would be awesome with loxodon smiter, really awesome, but i am a bit sceptical if that really works, and i am not good enough with rulings to know if i can abuse that situation or not
thanks in advance
No he doesn't become the controller of the spell unless the card tells so (see Commandeer.
You will call a card on the resolution on Therapy and if you happen to call Smiter while having one in hand it gets discarded, it won't come into play.
A Rock deck at the scg las vegas invitational went 7:1 or better!
Heres the list
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=61380
Very close to mine which I had good succes with it too, exept he raised the Souls, Lili count to 4 and droped the Hyms. ..
The Tutor board is also interesting.
Lilly is beast...3-4 is a must.
Has anyone played pack rat? Watching star city and some guy just won only casting a thoughtsieze and pack rat....
Manipulato, could you please post the deck list? I can't access the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manipulato
Thank you!
Edit : Now it's working. It's written he ranked 710th, this is pretty weird.
Andrew Herbelin also went 7th (not 3rd as it's written) with this list at SCG super IQ Montclair : http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...1&iddeck=89927
He went 710th because the invitational is a mix between 8 rounds Standard and 8 rounds of legacy, so he was terrible in Standard but MVP in Legacy 😊Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy
710th means 7-1 in whichever format
Hey, i promise that i will post tournament report. Sorry that im late but had a lot to do. So...enjoy ;)
GPT PARIS - 9 players ( only ;( because Today in the same city they have another Legacy Event, and in My city we play GPT Paris so most of players choose to play today at home city )
Metagame:
BUG Delver - 2
Junk - 1 (Me)
Elfball -1
Merfolk with TNN - 1
Show and Tell -1
BG Dark Depths -1
Dredge (wo returns) - 1
Renimator - 1
-----
Im have pleasure to introduce you JUNK 2.0:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Swamp
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormods crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Mosswort Bridge
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
Round 1:vs BUG Delver /on Draw
He start from Deathrite so i have to use StP nad consider...BUG ? Rock ? then he play fetch and pass. I try target him by Hymn and my plan was crushed by Force of will. and we know now about our Match Up. Next turn look right: second Hymn> brainstorm-Fow(exileDelver), then he put Goyf nd pass turn. i cant found any answer on him and next turn i saw second Goyf.... 0:1
SIDE IN:+3thalia +2surgical extraction
SIDE OUT:-2qasali -1mystic -1sword of fire and ic -1 gaddock
i start with land go. he cast 1st turn Delver, then he ponder and wasteland me and i havent got any more land and on hand i have battersull, 2 knights so i could only size him and put out maelstrom pulse. he topdeck lili and seduce my shaman to kill ;( then i cant play anything from hand he ponder and hymn me (knight, batterskull) now i topdeck land and play library with hope that he havent got counter....but my dreams was crushed by Abrupt Decay. then he took control from liliana discard and kill mi by delver
Result: 0-1-0
Round 2:vs Elves /on play - opp mull to 6
i start with land seize combo ;) (glimps, catacomb, hoof, dryad, sentinel, progenitus, deathrite) i put out his glimpse. next turn looks like > t2 mystic - jitta, second seize put out natural order, he add some lands with no busines spells then i use zenith for gaddock to block his NO and GSZ -win by jitta kill.
SIDE IN:2 enligtened tutor,2 charm +1 plague +1 deed +1 cannonist
SIDE OUT:-2 qasali -1 Ooze -1 maze of ith -2 liliana of the vail -1 KotR
he start with fetch and play DeathriteS i seize hi (GSZ, abrupt, shaman, dryad, glimpse) i choose GSZ he put his second shaman and add dryad to pool and pass. i use hymn power and he put his glimpse and and abrupt into grave. then just attack me and i cast gaddock from hand, after my knight he drew abrupt and kill him. next turn i topdeck Stoneforge and send email to jitta with invite into party....
Result: 1-1-0
Round 3:vs Sneak and Show on Play -i mull to 6 /he keep
T1 shaman, then he probe and put petal because he saw my hymn ;) i cant stop myself to play this hyn and crush him (funny because i choose 2 lands - fueal fo shaman)then he just play land and pass, i topdeck second hymn and again hit 2 lands (island, ancient tomb) he stay with tarn and intuition. then i cast Sword of fire and ice add 2nd shaman he has a crappy draws with no hard business so i use this situation and put Stone+SoFaI and kill him.
SIDE IN: +2 Charm +2 surgical +1 Oblivion +1 Canonist +2 tutor +1 Bridge
Side Out:-3 Abrupt Decay -1 Ooze -1 Gaddock -1 Jitte -2 Stoneforge -1 Batterskull
i keep 7 but he mull to 5.
he start with fetch go - so i put shaman and pass, then i saw another fatch go action. on my side i add second shaman and wait for his action but nothing more than 3rd land. I topdeck Hymn and he hit land and emrakul, in answer of trigger i pay 2 life and exile playset of spaghetti master by surgical extraction, on hand stay 2 sneak. he topdeck land and play 1st sneak, then i destro it by qasali, he cast 2nd sneak and i use GSZ for another qasali ;) he play brainstorm and pyroclasm on my two shamans, then i drew Knight (4/4) he cast another (3) sneak...lol...so i could only wait for griselbrand, but i drew hymn and put out his 2 stifle now i start attack. on my hand i had 2 swords so felt a little bit safe. then after attack he has 7 life so i was sure that i will win this game because he cant draw from grisel brand and i have 2 swords so...
result: 2-1-0
Round 4:vs BUG Delver
lol...whole day agins BUG looks the same, i cast good cards and they always had countermagic - so boring ;(
t2 - hymn/daze then he seize me - hymn / i put shaman he play hymn >liliana, mystic / i do nothing now;( he cast delver but i StP him so he again hymn me and put KotR and BSkull out. i gsz for Ooze but he play goyf and abrupt my ooze. situation was 40:60 for him because i play MoIth buying me time...and when i cast library to take advantage he force me. i was empty and he play another goyf
SIDE IN/ OUT the same as in Round 1
i start with shaman, he do the same i try put hymn into resolv but he fow it. next turn i play nothing stops play land and he Wasteland me, play life from the loam, i again nothing he put Jace...and i concede with his full hand and LftLoam control.
result: 2-2-0
Round 5:vs BG Dark Depths on Draw
I obv start with shaman, he do the same. next turn i play seize and put his abrupt into grave. shaman stay for resp on his shaman. then he play dark depths and pass, i play another seize and crush his plan for use Living Wish so he stay on hand with nothing to kill me quickly so i have time to put Knight into battlefield and start Wasteland Control each turn
SIDE IN:2 enlightened tutor 1 bridge 2 surgical 1 oblivion ring 1 Deed (yea i forget that it dont desto Merit Liege)
Side Out:2 Qasali 1 gaddock teeg -1 batterskull -1 Mystic -1Ooze (and i stay with 14 card in SB)
this game was funny, he start with shaman, i run seize and discard his seize. then i run hymn (abrupt, thespian stage and exile all thespian by surgical) he play sensei and it was very good for him. next turn he just dig dig and i play 2 shamans, i realize that he has only 2 lands and 1 shaman so i sword his shaman and wasteland his land trying to create an ideal screw game for him. he play Bob and make good card advantage, i put my Knight and every turn attack to donw his life low and low. one turn before that i kill him he could win by Cropp rotation and thespian stage...he did it but forget about surgical acition hehe and i won 2:0
Result: 3-2-0
I reach Top4 (1st Bug 2nd Bug 3rd Me 4th Dredge)
with my bad luck i met with Bug control and i have tears in eyes because i dont REC this game...it was like from book with recipe how win with junk...he has IDEAL really IDEAL draws...shaman, hymn, fow everything... i stop note after 3 turn...it was so sad :( hehe....i lost this round.
So....i went 3:2 swiss 0:1 top4. I dont ant to change anything i am enough proud of list to play it in next tournament.
But any thoughts - agains BUG i will side in Bridge to stop goyf ;) it was my fault.
Last good information - my buddy play this deck (the same list) next day on GPT Paris in other city and he reach Top4 too but have badluck in first top4 round.
Thanks for reading - sorry for bad grammar ;)i have hope that it is enough to understand.
Damn, what ways can we combat BUG Delver?
--
Also, just had a thought. For Thespian Depths lists, what about using Scapeshift to get both pieces at once? You're vulnerable to a Wasteland since they come into play tapped, but you can directly tutor for the combo.
So I ran this deck at the Invitational and at the Open in Las Vegas, and we've got a serious problem with True Name Nemesis.
I'll be updating the primer over the next little bit, but in all honesty, some redesign is needed for the deck. In the article that Caleb Durward did, he said Junk colours was one of the combinations that lost the most ground against TNN, and I'm inclined to agree.
I went 0-3 in the Open and then dropped, 2-2 in the Qualifier, and went 0-1 in Legacy (was already 1-3 in Standard, so I dropped) in the Invitational. I played against Esperblade, Deathblade, and Bant Blade. The issue is we really have no way to answer TNN, and if we don't have immediate ways of dealing with all their other creatures, it's really bad times for us.
My point really comes down to this: in the TNN decks, they're not designed to be super fast clocks, except in Patriot. None are tempo decks except Patriot. Prior to TNN, our matchup against all of these decks was at least 50/50 or favoured. Now, I'm inclined to say we're not favoured for a few reasons below.
1) If you're on the GSZ plan, you're a slower deck. If you're a slower deck, the more likely you're going to get ground out by a True Name Nemesis with equipment, which is hard to stop.
2) You suffer from getting hit by Jace, Batterskull, etc. Other cards in these decks have better long games.
3) At one on one with a True Name and no sacrifice effects, you cannot profitably attack.
So, what do we need in these matchups?
1) Hitting sacrifice effects when TNN is their only creature in play, which is going to be harder and harder to do. I feel like these decks will increase their creature count to make sure they don't get TNN'd out of the game.
2) A creature that can swing past TNN with some sort of evasion, or be a bigger threat that the opponent is not dropping TNN and instead backpedaling.
My point is, I think I'm going to be putting the GSZ build on the back burner for now whilst I figure out a decklist that satisfies beating TNN consistently. The card is ridiculously and obviously non-interactive, but to a level of absurdity. I boarded 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Zealous Persecution, 1 Toxic Deluge, and 2 Pernicious Deed and STILL lost to TNN in my matches.
I think a good way to avoid the stall on board are to do what some of you have done: switch to Stoneforge Mystic. I think the switch wasn't necessary prior to TNN because GSZ gave you consistency over explosivity and was just a different way of playing the same game. I think with TNN, you no longer have the luxury to play the deck in such a reactive manner. I think it may be necessary to go back to certain cards we may have overlooked for each of us, depending on the builds we've run in the past.
I think the deck really should include:
Stoneforge Mystic (with maindeck Sword of Fire and Ice)
Liliana of the Veil and possibly Elspeth (for jumping otherwise stranded attackers)
More hand disruption and equipment removal
Thalia in the board for combo and to slow the development of the decks that run TNN. A lone TNN isn't bad, equipped means game over.
So, I'm thinking something along the lines of:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
Of course it needs equipment and tweaking, but cutting the chaff for SFM + Equipment is likely the best option. Topping out on removal also seems like the best idea since you HAVE to keep their guys off the table to keep Liliana profitable.
Your sideboard likely becomes likely 3-4 cards against TNN, and another 9-11 cards against Combo and everything else. I really hate cutting the versatility of GSZ, but I think it might be necessary to stand a chance in this format.
-Matt
If you're going down the Liliana route, maybe play Lingering Souls again since it pairs well with her +1?
And if you go the Souls plan, Cabal Therapy should be great as well as lets you nab their equipment when they SFM it up.
Of course, Zealous Persecution is even nuttier with Lingering Souls.
The drawback to the Souls plan is of course you're going to get hit by the splash hate for TNN that people are packing, but I think Tarmogoyf / SFM and not overextending into sweepers will keep you safe.
To be honest i have no problem with TNN...8 discard main , 2 lilianas, after board plague on merfolk and 2 charms....realy test my version.
SDEMatt, you mean like the SCG list that was posted earlier that did well?
Previously I'd been having a lot of trouble with punishing fire (I was running Shamans, Bobs, Sfm and souls as my critters, and then switched to the GSun's plan)
But I assume with TNN rearing it's ugly head PFire is losing favour right?
Anyways, I soon realised how important it is to have evasion to be able to connect with equipment, too often was I suiciding shamans to get jitte counters. Souls solves that quite nicely tbh. Though I miss having the extra 3 turn 1 ramp spells with Gsun and dryad arbor :(
My problem is that the "fair" decks, even with TNN are at least 50/50 now but the combo decks are abysmal :/
We don't have the card selection of the blue decks (which is why I'm moving to library over bob) and I tend to lose against reanimator and sneak and show game 1, game 2 I feel I have about 2 turns to make a difference, and even then it might not be enough.
Being new to the deck (and legacy, long time lurker, first time poster :) maybe means I'm not muliganing aggressively enough.
I'll post a list in the future, but currently not happy with any particular iterations.
Really appreciate all the great advice and discussion on here though, great work peoples :D
Against Sneaky Show & Reanimator, a pretty key part to the matchup is KoTR->Karakas, so if the Knight package gets cut I can see that seriously negatively affecting the matchup.
I agree there, many game 1s against SnT are won off of the back of Knight.
So, on TNN, here's a gatherer fueled brainstorm:
Engineered Plague
Engineered Explosives
Celestial Flare - been popular with the DnT crowd
General edict effects (Liliana, Diabolic, etc)
Outbreak - this is actually pretty cool, cheap card that helps deal with DnT (kill all their humans, or thalia), helps with Elves, helps with a lot of X/1 creatures...problem becomes getting a swamp in hand and being sorcery speed. Doesn't deal with equipped TNN
Good ol' CoP: Blue (Abrupt Decay, narrow)
Grave Pact (high cost with BBB, can't be decay'd, goes well with Lingering Souls/Dryad Arbor and Cabal Therapy, but requires creatures)
Island Sanctuary (We can abuse with Sylvan and Bob, but can be abrupt decay'd, narrow, requires set up, doesn't work against Show and Tell or Merfolk decks oddly enough)
Toxic Deluge of course
I'm disappointed there isn't some sort of Choke effect for Blue creatures. Closest I could find was Thelon's Curse (really bad) and Magnetic Mountain, which is too deep in red.
And, for the hilarity of it, cards like Everlasting Torment and Skullcrack work as well (yay protection rules).
Also didn't think of basilisk effects:
Gaze of the Gorgon
this is quite bad
Someone was running Sylvan Basilisk in Jund as a one-of, but I'm not sure if that's an excellent call or not for 5 mana.
I think I like the idea of cutting Confidant, since he's going to die to every piece of -1/-1 hate people are packing.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to tourach
3 Swords to plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sylvan Library
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
I tweaked HardBrain's numbers around for a few reasons. Mostly, I needed to create space for 1 Liliana and 2 Sylvan, meaning I needed to cut 3 slots. Then, I realized the land count was super light at 21, so I upped it to 22, down from my 23 (but with more basic lands). So, I needed 4 cuts. Those were 1 Hymn, 1 Zenith, 1 SFM, 1 Teeg. I know cutting SFM seems a bit sketch since that's what we're trying to do, but I doubt there's a better cut unless we cut the Knight/Goyf slot to 3 and up SFM back to 4. Either way, I'm liking the list. I have yet to play it, of course, but in theory, it's doing moreso what we want to be doing. My board will likely shape up like so:
3 Thalia, GoT
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Lingering Souls
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
+4 slots for the more aggro and unfair matchups.
The 7 discard main is going to be more of a beating on Storm, but less likely on Sneak. It's interesting to see if hard Miracle Control/Deluge control comes out of all of this. The 4 slots could be a split of Elves hate, grave hate, and hand disruption, or whatever. Time will tell.
Another card to consider, at least as an equipment vehicle, is Great Stable Stag. 3/3 for 1GG that can't be countered with Pro Black and Blue. Might be not too terrible, similar to the techy Smiter slot.
-Matt
Confirmed typo, it was supposed to be Sylvan Library.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Oh Matt, if only you knew...Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
On a serious note, Junk only has two avenues of attack vs. TNN; hand disruption and sacrifice/-X-X sweepers. Jund has a 3rd avenue in Red Elemental Blast. Do you feel that Junk is better positioned to deal with TNN than Jund or Shardless BUG is?