5 mana is annoying, but this is a ramp deck. You can't compare it to burning wish because they are different colors and fetch different things. Not recommending golden yet, but it could be a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
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5 mana is annoying, but this is a ramp deck. You can't compare it to burning wish because they are different colors and fetch different things. Not recommending golden yet, but it could be a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
At least with burning wish though you can actually cast the spell you get the same turn that you get it.
Again, you can't compare it to burning wish.
Obviously, it would only be a 1- or 2-of, giving the deck game against combo before sideboarding.
I'm not seeing how a 5 CMC spell that simply tutors, doesn't even cast the spell, is good vs combo.
Top 8'd Mythic's monthly legacy today with Scape. Only change from the Champs list was -1 Rakdos Return in the board for +1 From the Ashes. Report on Monday, as usual.
It gives you access to things you would not normally have access to preboard. Against combo you need to disrupt them until you can lock them out of the game. However, there is nothing currently in the main board of white version that can lock combo out of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I'm worried about the combo matchup g1, is all.
Got to play a legacy tournament for the first time in 13 months. Back from the desolate North Dakota. Played 4 rounds with Arianrhods scapeshift version. 3-1-0 for 2nd place. 7-3 for games.
I played damnation in the sb over deluge (don't own it), and instead of rakdos return I played a Thrun.
Round 1: Death and Taxes, was able to win 2-0. I think he had the possibility to win each game if he happened to make every correct choice every turn, though I don't know if they would have been arguably the best lines at each juncture. Lots of wastelands, porting, vialing, sfm equip choices, and combat. Got down as low as 4 vs. a crusader before sticking a huntmaster and then scaping for the win. Luckily he does not have any cataclysm in his sb. He does have a number of mindcensors but never sees one. I eventually scape him to death again in game 2.
Edit- I did not draw a Valukut in either game, and if I had drawn one or both it is likely I would have lost the game with a chance at the match. Also, my g1 lethal scape found every last mountain in the deck to trigger valakut and do lethal.
Round 2: Rug Delver, he keeps a disruption heavy hand but no threat. I stick a vet while he lands tarm. He stifles, I get another vet, some lands and then land a thrag. I draw scape with a top in play and close to lethal, then see a burning 3 down. Next turn I draw burning and put a land on top. Get seize, coast is clear. Tap to draw the land and lethal with scape.
Game 2: He goes delver. Flip, delver, delver. Flip, Flip. I had enough time and life to either play my damnation or deeds. I opted for damnation and he forced. He also had the stifle for my deeds. GG.
Game 3: I survive off an active carpet that gave me 1, then 2 and 3 mana a turn with a deed in play but only 2 lands. Blast a delver and we each sit around for a while. He brainstorm fetches, ponder + shuffle, redraws ponder, etc all looking for threats. Was able to maneuver my resources with the small game while eventually triggering a vet in combat that gave me the momentum to manifest resources for a lethal scapeshift in turn 1 of time. What made this game easy was that he only saw tarms and geese, no 2nd delver. So my vets, elders and woods gave me infinite time and resources. We could have played faster but I had not seen him in over a year.
Round 3: Bant mystic with vial. I play cabal on t2 naming thalia. Miss, he shows me sfm, war monk and geist. He plays sfm and gets batterskull. I draw a 2nd cabal, play a land and gsz for vet then fb and hit batterskull. Then hardcast my second and hit geist. Leisurely kill him with scape before his monk can tug him over 30 life. Game 2 I trigger some green creatures in combat and scape him out on turn 6.
Round 4: BUG cascade. GEEEZ. First time playing vs this deck. So much stuff culminating in card advantage. He sticks a jace and possibly liliana. Cascades and gets goyfs. I deed at some point but his land card in hand was FOW to stop be from doing something relevant with my last card (wish or scape). Game 2 I exile his jaces and hit a bunch of land drops. He has a liliana and 1 3/2 unblockable land. I slowly hemorrhage life and we get hellbent. I manage to get enough red sources to trigger my valakut and kill his liliana, then draw huntmaster, then draw gsz for Prime Time that wins me the race vs. 2 unblockable lands. Game 3 he is going first and sticks an unmolested jace. I extract his tarm, he plays some cascade bears but bricks on his flips. I start getting jaced, then liliana'd. I still have outs, as I have a bunch of lands in play. He epic lily's me, but I STILL have outs with jace at 12 as I am only getting beat by a 2/2 and was at 12 life. I can draw reb or 2 burning wishes for pulse with 32 cards left in my deck. Find an ewitness. Lose.
I sb'd out slaughter games my first 3 matches but did not mind them MD because I won regardless. Thrun was fine vs. the field and I never really wished I had the rakdos return.
Very enjoyable deck, could not believe how fast I could close games out. I am used to the slow versions of the deck that play 2 ewitness and rec nightmare to win eventually. This deck could easily topdeck wins out of no where. It was pretty wild to have a sdt in play, a shuffle effect and know that I have 6 cards in my deck that result in GG.
SB vs Delver: -4 cabal, -2 slaughter, -1 prime time, -1 burning wish: +1 innocent blood, +1 damnation, +3 carpet of flowers, +2 reb, +1 thrun. I liked how this felt post board. Triggering my vet was often tough or impossible, though unless he was hitting me with delver he can't win on the ground without stifles which opens up the 4 fetches and deeds. Prime seems win more and the deck probably only wants to see 1 burning wish (for clasm, pulse, or lethal scape) so that was trimmed.
Don't side out Therapies against RUG. I did that once, too, and it is wrong. They protect you from Stifle. Side out the Huntmasters instead, they are not good against RUG. Siding in all the good Wish targets seems bad, too, because it makes the Wishes bad. With Arian's list I'd side like this against RUG:Quote:
Originally Posted by conboy31
- 3 Huntmaster
- 2 Slaughter Games
+ 3 Carpet
+ 2 Red Blast
I was on the fence about the wish, but will defend my choices a little more. I could be convinced I am wrong. I don't think I want to draw more than 2 wishes. 1.5 is ideal. 1 to clean up rugs threats and maybe 1 to close out the game.
The 2 mana and defer my turn (unless I am getting innocent blood) is a dangerous tempo loss vs. their efficient threats. Because of that I really only want 1 or 2 ways to wish and kill their creatures. Of that, I think damnation in the MD is correct because I probably need to resolve it the turn I would be wishing for it. Additionally, the innocent blood gives me 3 turn 1 answers to delver, and 1 to goose (should I choose to take this route). The leftovers are pyroclasm for unthresh'd geese and delvers, and pulse for multiple delvers and goyfs. Then, the scape for the win.
I would need more testing with cabal vs. rug, though I am inclined to believe you as I know you have stayed current in magic during my furlough. They are obviously particularly relevant on the play when they can't brainstorm and daze.
I would first consider Glittering Wish instead Golden Wish. Here is why. First, for two mana instead of five, it will give you access to Deed. Second, if you think having something like nether void in the turn after you pay 5 for Golden Wish is necessary or useful (in which scenario your opponent will probably have the mana to just ignore nether void), then i think dovescape will accomplish a better result, being castable by glittering wish virtually on the same turn that Nether void. Third, it will give access to cards like Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Golgari Charm, Gerrad's Verdict, Castigate, Harmonic Sliver, Pridemage and Gaddock Tegg. Also, with a little splash for blue, you could go with Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict and Meddling Mage. And, of course, any multicolored planeswalker you could see fitting in your strategy. It may be a little stretchy on the manabase, but this would be a much better package against combo and other annoying stuff then the one that Golden Wish can provide. That being said, I still think Glittering Wish is too slow and narrow to being worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pfiremc13
I just think 5 mana on turn 3 at the earliest, then having to wait a turn to cast the hate card , is just too slow. I mean what would your wish targets be anyway?
They are really mostly to combat Stifle. If you can get something else out of it that is of course great but Stifle is their far and away best card against Nic Fit. Countering Explorer triggers is a strong play but especially countering a Deed trigger is a huge blowout and one of the ways to lose this matchup because you trade 5 mana for 1. Brainstorm is not that much of a problem for Therapy as normal because hiding the Stifle won't help them against a Deed on the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by conboy31
Also, Huntmaster is a weak card against them. I think this is the only matchup in which I side Huntmasters out. They just randomly don't match up against their cards. Huntmaster can't trade with Goyf, he can't block Delver and the Token you get can't trade with a Goose. Flipping is highly unlikely, too. All it does is trade with a Bolt and the 2/2 chump blocker it leaves behind is not relevant enough to justify the mana investment. Tusk on the other hand for just one more mana gains 3 more life, potentially trades with Goyf and the Token it leaves behind when Bolted is big enough to trade with Goose.
Vs RUG, I board as such:
+2 REB
+3 Carpet of Flowers
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 Primeval Titan
-2 Slaughter Games
That's what I've settled on after playing the matchup a bit. Boarding out 1 Explorer seems a little odd, but with the full 7 1-drop accelerators in the deck, you can have draws where you just get literally mana and die. I find 6 turn-1 ramp plays to be sufficient. If you really disagree with cutting a Vet (which I can understand, I'm still not 100% on it...just like, 90%), then I would suggest cutting a Sakura-Tribe or a Wood Elves.
I like the ability to Wish for a Therapy, since the 2 life from Thoughtseize can really hurt in this matchup, and sometimes they have more than 1 copy of something that you don't like.
I'm legitimately starting to wonder if Primeval Titan should just be a 3rd Thragtusk (or some other option). I board it out fairly frequently. Every now and then it'll steal a win, but some other card [x] could also be able to steal that win, or prevent me from getting into that situation in the first place. Vs tempo it's right to board it out because most of the time you either don't need, won't get to the mana to play it, or it's just irrelevant.
Laughter Games is an obvious board out.
I wouldn't touch Huntmaster here, although I do typically board out one vs UWR Delver.
I have been Goldfishing with scapewish for a bit now and I tend to agree that Primetime seems unneeded in scapewish (but needed in the p. Fire version). More life gain: Finks vs. Tusk? Beats: Thrun or Avenger? One of batterskull? More beats?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I'm struggling against the new TA delver/TNN. This deck is a real pain. Between flipped delver, tarmo, TNN, discard and counterspell, I just cannot get through the early turns and each time I could wipe the board, a TS take the deed away and I feel naked like a baby...
Even post board, this deck is a nightmare.
My current Punishing Fire list:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Extirpate
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless
I was thinking of cutting 1 Grove of the Burnwillows and replacing it with a second Forest, to dodge Blood Moon.dec a little better.
You seem to think I'd be building my deck around it. I wouldn't. I would put it in an existing white version to give it access to nether void, humility, and batterskull pre-sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithkar
See above. Basically, the cards I use to win the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
pfire, go for it and try it a few games. I am confident that you will eventually completely dismiss the card. 3WW do nothing is simply not playable. It can't be green sun'd and it is a sorcery (that does not scale like green sun, ie 2 through 6 mana) that will possibly eat a dead daze or spell pierce. Baneslayer beats most other creatures like humility does, gives you as much life as batterskull would and nether void is irrelevant. 3WW pass the turn against combo (I assume?) and not die again, don't get hit by a duress/cabal/thoughtseize or silence/chant, resolve nether void, go... seems unlikely.
The Therapy makes sense. On second thought, siding out one or both Scapeshifts instead of the Huntmasters could be right, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
But how on earth could you possibly side Explorer out and keep Wood Elves in? Makes no sense.
Mythic Report:
Round 1: 43 Lands
Game one: I'm sick, and I derp. I was warned by a friend ahead of time that this guy was playing Lands. I keep a perfectly reasonable hand that has absolutely no ramp, and as a result can't race his Dark Depths. Realize after it's too late that I could have Burning Wished for From the Ashes, because I forgot that I put that in my sideboard. Good start to the day. To be fair, he had the Exploration -> double Gamble opener, and was really quick to combo.
Game two: I remember that From the Ashes is a card in my 76. I Wish for it and blow up a fistful of lands. I then Top into a Slaughter Games and remove his Loams, and then Zenith for E.Wit to Ashes him again. Without Loams, this time the Ashes is fatal, and he dies to random dork beatdown (like a Wood Elves, a Vet, and the Witness casually lava axing him every turn).
Game three: I Ashes him, and then I Ashes him again. I never see a Slaughter this game, though, so he's able to consistently recover thanks to his 1-of basic Forest. I get him to 7, though, by repeatedly multi-time-walking him, and force him to Glacial Chasm. He Time Walks me twice with it, then has to let the Chasm go at 1 life. He slams O-Stone on his second turn therein, and then attempts to play a Mox Diamond to get him to the 5 mana to blow it. I respond to the Diamond by Deeding for 3, which wipes out all of board except for a Thragtusk. He Transmutes Tolaria West for a Maze of Ith and triumphantly passes the turn. I draw Scapeshift, and he dies.
***of note, folks***: I was able to From the Ashes TWICE in game 3, and still had more than enough mountains left over to Shift FTW. With 4 fetches in my deck. I think we have a winner.
Round 2: Elves
Game one: I know exactly what he's playing, and he knows exactly what I'm playing. He wins the die roll. I keep a hand with Therapy and Deed. I miss my Therapy (called Natural Order). He Glimpses off with Birchlore + Nettle Sentinel, and kills me.
Game two: I wrath him approximately 3 or 4 times, and he can't deal with Huntmasters.
Game three: I mull to 5, and keep Therapy, Therapy, Thoughtseize, Veteran, Scapeshift. Naturally I draw Badlands on my first turn, and proceed the hail of discard. I tear his hand apart, and get some good blind names that keep me in it. He ends up having to go beatdown with 3 Elves, because that's all he has left. I finally hit a green source, and leave up the Vet as a blocker. I end up with a board state of 6 lands in play, with Scapeshift in hand vs his 3 Elves. I'm somewhere around 90% to win on my next draw step -- only something like Slaughter Games, Therapy, Thoughtseize causes me to not win. Top lets me win. Explorer, Zenith, any ramp guy lets me win. Land lets me win. Etc. He draws one of the two remaining Natural Orders left in his deck for his turn (I'd discarded one earlier), Orders for Hoof, and kills me. Sick life.
Round 3: UWR Delver
Game one: Uhhhhhh stuff. The only notable thing I remember is that I cast a Slaughter Games into his active Stoneforge + 2 lands, and he derped and said "it resolves," which let me take his Batterskull. He knew better -- was just having an off day. Like I looked at him and was like, really? Really? As the board state evolved, it wouldn't have mattered if he had remembered to Vial it in -- I would have named Force instead, and then two turns later I Shifted for 36 -- he couldn't have gained enough life even with the Batterskull active.
Game two: Stuff happens, he dies. Note that he didn't see a True-Name in either of these games despite having three of them in his deck. Not sure it would have mattered had he seen one, but figured it was worth mentioning.
Round 4: BUG Delver
Game one: He makes a Delver, it dies, he makes a Tombstalker, it dies, I beat him to death with Huntmasters and Thragtusks.
Game two: I'm sick, and apparently forget to board out Slaughter Games. Derp. I learn that he has Stifle in his deck as he draws a bajillion of them and slows me way down between that and Wasteland. I use a Carpet of Flowers to Deed away a Tombstalker (#achievement). He chains Goyf into Goyf into Delver with no cards in hand (runner runner runner). I blow up the first Goyf, and wall his second with a Tusk for a few turns. On my last turn of life, I draw one of those Slaughter Games I forgot to board out. Awkward.
Game three: I adjust my board correctly, and shuffle up. I'm sick, though, and I forget to take out the Pyroclasm that I wished for last game -- as made immediately apparent when I draw it in my opening hand. I say fuck it and keep -- it's a 1-lander (mono Stomping Grounds) with Explorer, Pyroclasm, and a bunch of good stuff. My deck decides to be gracious and doesn't punish me -- I draw a Carpet of Flowers. He makes a Delver and a Deathrite Shaman. I draw a land, play it, play that Pyroclasm that I didn't board out, setting off Explorer and wrathing him. From there it's the Huntmaster and Thragtusk show again. Pretty sure I won this game because I forgot to board out that Pyroclasm. How fucking awkward is that.
Round 5: Burn
We ID into the top 8 -- it's a clean cut where all of the 9-pointers and up can just draw. I'm not incredibly worried, but I've played vs this guy a few times now and I know he knows a few tricks about playing vs Scape with Burn, so I don't REALLY want to play this matchup. And since we can all ID and be happy, there's no reason to.
Top 8: Junk
Top 8 agrees to split and we all go home, which is good because I feel like death itself at this point. At least I had a favorable matchup if someone had decided to play it out.
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Thoughts on the current iteration of the deck:
I never used From the Ashes outside of vs my 43 lands opponent. That matchup, however, proved to me that Ashes is a viable option for Scapewish. Most of the time you're playing towards basics anyway, so Ashes doesn't actually kill that many of your lands. Usually like a Bayou and 1-2 mountain duals. Then, you get 1 basic Mountain with Ashes usually, which means you have ~8-9 mountains left in deck. Unless you get really unlucky, that should be enough. Just make sure you're fetching basics where possible.
I'm unconvinced Ashes is the correct card for that sideboard slot, though, at the same time. I mean, obviously it did a ton of work in the lands matchup, but that isn't really something that I'm worried about sideboarding for. It suffers from the Haunting Echoes problem, namely, that if you would ever wish for it you usually would rather just wish for Scapeshift and kill them dead.
The more I think about it, the more I want to cut Primeval Titan. It's not like in Punishing where he gets your engines rolling / turbo'd. Not sure what I want to put in this slot yet.
I haven't missed Phyrexian Tower even once, and my previous sporadic manabase problems have all but completely evaporated since going up to 4 fetches. Top feels stronger than ever, as well. I still obsess about not having that 12th mountain, but I can live with it. Even if it's scary at times, I think that 11 mountains is correct and a good trade-off for the increased consistency.
Maindeck Laughter Games have continued to be acceptable. It feels good to not be dead to combo game one, and the sideboard space that it opened up is greatly appreciated. Furthermore, it makes it much more likely that you're going to win game 1 against Miracles, which is usually important since a 1-0-1 result is still a win for the round. Just remember to sideboard them out vs fair matchups =.=
I'll update the link in my sig with the most recent Scapewish list.
If anyone has any thoughts on what that open slot (Primeval) should be, now's the time to express them. I'm expecting a meta composed primarily of the following 8 decks at the GP:
Miracles
Sneak
Storm
Jund
Death and Taxes
UWx Blade
UWR Delver
RUG Delver
I consider Scapewish favored against everything on that list except Storm. I also don't think that Storm is fixable with 1 slot, so I'm willing to accept that as a throw-away where I just need to get lucky. Obviously there's a high chance of other decks besides those 8, because GP and people will play whatever they can get their hands on / whatever they want. But, yeah.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and Carpet of Flowers is DA BOMB. Seriously.
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@Tao, I had some weird logic in my head where the Wood Elves was better to leave in than the Veteran because of Stifle or Submerge or something, but the more I thought it through while trying to argue the point, the more I realized I was just wrong. You're right -- one of the Wood Elves should be the 5th board-out.