[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by vercadium

I don't think cutting Abrupt Decay is an option in Europe. There's lots of Miracles and a fair amount of Chalice of the Void here. I haven't ruled it out yet as I can definitely see the appeal though. Depending on that, the changes to the mana-base suggested over the past 3 pages will be a tough and interesting decision to make.

@Bryant - Aside from my regional reservations above, I like your list at the end of the last page. How have the basic lands performed for you? Perhaps it's too early to say. Sadly I won't get a chance to test any of this until at least next week, so I'm eager to hear of anyone's experiences.

Regarding Grapeshot, it's a tough one for sure. I don't have anything to add that would help as I agree with everything you expressed here, but can also understand the desire to having an absolute blow-out to wish for against hatebears.

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If you're dead set on playing decay, I'd do this:

1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

Which may not be bad. You need chain because Decay is less reliable against decks with wasteland.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I fear, i have to disagree with this post in it's entirety. Gaining access to a whooping 9 mana in a timeframe in which Ad Nauseam still matters due to dealt damage is a heavy burden in a metagame with Daze & Spell Pierce on one side of the spectrum and Thalia & Wasteland on the other. By wishing for Infernal and passing the turn, you give you opponent perfect information about what's up to come and where to point/when to fire his discard (Cabal Therapy!) while also grant him a free time walk by wasting 2 mana (which often equals a whole turn) just for switching the business-spell. I hope that there is no discussion of how this essentially wasted turn affects your Ad Nauseam if your opponent controls a Delver or can find a Hymn or hatebear.

The SB Infernal has nothing to do with the cut of Diminishing Returns. Returns fate was sealed by two facts: 1) without Silence it is a crappy engine against blue and 2) the whole except MUD, D&T and Dredge is basically blue atm. We looked at stuff like Doomsday and Infernal Contract to have a wishable engine once EtW is not a target of value and ended with moving Infernal into the SB under the aspect of having a stronger manaboost with Cabal Ritual. Now the circumstances changed once more and Cabal Ritual is out and we have less options to power our manapool.

This is exactly the moment Treasue Cruise comes into play as our new option for a wishable engine if our graveyard is not packed with Rituals for Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens in not an option. It's a slick way of converting additional Wishes into cardadvantage, drawing you into your 4 MB Infernals rather than just switching one business for the other with the downside of also nailing a neon sign to the wall reading "dood, I'm going to combo next turn!"

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I'm with Vercadium on this one, I really like having it in the sideboard – I use it all the time. I see it being infinitely better than Treasure Cruise.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I fear, i have to disagree with this post in it's entirety. Gaining access to a whooping 9 mana in a timeframe in which Ad Nauseam still matters due to dealt damage is a heavy burden in a metagame with Daze & Spell Pierce on one side of the spectrum and Thalia & Wasteland on the other. By wishing for Infernal and passing the turn, you give you opponent perfect information about what's up to come and where to point/when to fire his discard (Cabal Therapy!) while also grant him a free time walk by wasting 2 mana (which often equals a whole turn) just for switching the business-spell. I hope that there is no discussion of how this essentially wasted turn affects your Ad Nauseam if your opponent controls a Delver or can find a Hymn or hatebear.

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I understand your point, but I was merely expressing how frequently the scenario I have encountered was - Gitaxian Probe and Discard has seen the way is clear; wish for a path to Ad Nauseam. It's not a linear path - if there were better routes to victory then I would have walked those instead, but the one in which I described has happened often for me and is enabled only because of Infernal Tutor in the sideboard. While you are correct that this additional turn also translates to reduced health due to their creatures, I don't see how this is any worse than your proposed alternative:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This is exactly the moment Treasue Cruise comes into play as our new option for a wishable engine if our graveyard is not packed with Rituals for Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens in not an option. It's a slick way of converting additional Wishes into cardadvantage, drawing you into your 4 MB Infernals rather than just switching one business for the other with the downside of also nailing a neon sign to the wall reading "dood, I'm going to combo next turn!"

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I understand that Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor to combo the following turn is a clear indicator and transparent information, but how any worse than your proposed option? You would rather not signal that your guaranteed to combo next turn, and instead Burning Wish into a dice-roll to hope to hit action? Either way you're probably not going off until the next turn, so the information isn't that relevant - if they draw a discard spell or hatebear, they're going to cast it regardless.

That said, I'll agree card-advantage is very desirable and while a cumulative +1 CA isn't anything to get excited about, converting additional copies of Burning Wish into it is. I'm not convinced Treasure Cruise is good enough, but if it is, it will not be as a direct replacement to the sideboard Infernal Tutor in my opinion.

In regards to Grapeshot we are forgetting one very important situation...

When your opponent starts acting like a pompous asshole.

#StormTwenty

...and that's all fair :)

For me, my testing and actual matches played, things like having 4 Infernal MB for the T1/2 Goblin-/AN-Burst, the doubling of discard against control, doubling of Rituals for PIF, not giving my opponent free timewalks to sculpt his hand & free turns to swing with his creatures hurting my Ad Nauseam I used a whole turn preparing for, had a much higher impact than the benefit of having access to a total of 7 Infernals game 1, with me still not being sure, if there are enough decks in the Legacy landscape, which you want this preboard configuration against. We even "lose" a locked boarding slot against slow matchups if you like to see it that way.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

...and that's all fair :)

For me, my testing and actual matches played, things like having 4 Infernal MB for the T1/2 Goblin-/AN-Burst, the doubling of discard against control, doubling of Rituals for PIF, not giving my opponent free timewalks to sculpt his hand & free turns to swing with his creatures hurting my Ad Nauseam I used a whole turn preparing for, had a much higher impact than the benefit of having access to a total of 7 Infernals game 1, with me still not being sure, if there are enough decks in the Legacy landscape, which you want this preboard configuration against. We even "lose" a locked boarding slot against slow matchups if you like to see it that way.

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Infernal in the sideboard makes Wishing for Goblins even better as it's additional storm, makes Wish a real tutor effect (9 mana isn't hard to generate to cast Infernal into Ad Nauseam, you guys tend to exaggerate quite a bit) and everyone who's ever played a storm deck knows that multiple Infernal Tutors kind of suck, it's wasted time. Makes Tutor clunky hands less likely while improving the quality of the ones we do have and it's slightly less damage off of Ad Nauseam. You're not losing a sideboard slot, you're filling it up with Treasure whatever.

Dunno. Converting additional Infernals into more Rituals/LEDs/RoFs/Discard/Decays or more options for the belcher mode, served me better in game 1's than having more options for announced midgame Ad Nauseams. With the Boarding slot i referred to the MB space which opens up once you remove the 4th infernal

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Dunno. Converting additional Infernals into more Rituals/LEDs/RoFs/Discard/Decays or more options for the belcher mode, served me better in game 1's than having more options for announced midgame Ad Nauseams

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"Midgame" being turn three against blue decks after disrupting your opponent the first two turns of the game? You even admitted that there's tons of blue decks at the moment. Not to mention, it happens on turn one or two more than you'd expect. Infernal-ing for secondary copies of cards forces you into the "midgame" as well.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

"Midgame" being turn three against blue decks after disrupting your opponent the first two turns of the game? You even admitted that there's tons of blue decks at the moment. Not to mention, it happens on turn one or two more than you'd expect. Infernal-ing for secondary copies of cards forces you into the "midgame" as well.

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Mind that you would invest your whole second turn not for disrupting but for switching Wish for Infernal. If we consider that you might have to Ponder or Brainstorm at some point your ad Nauseam is easily delayed to turn 4 instead and we're not even talking about what your opponent does/draws till when after your turn 1 disruption in this case

I just expect my midgame to evolve around the natural 10-count or PIF rather than Ad Nauseam. The whole question boils down to how effective we expect Ad Nauseams to be once we entered our third or forth turns in regard to opponents damage output while we have to slice through his/her defense. For me, the value of AN drops quite fast unless you have the pleasure to play against various forms of control reaching from Miracles (Counterbalance aside) to Loam to 12-post, with the later two being prime examples where the SB Infernal imo shines. We could still discuss if the increased options to drop turn 1 goblins or Ad Nauseam with a 4th MB infernal would not beat these decks as well or even better (Counterbalance, Chalice, etc.).

Storm has traditionally an easy time to dismember control if it has enough time to sculpt a hand and tear apart defense as well as racing pure aggro decks. I'm always looking for an edge against our main-issue, which is aggro-control and here I struggle to see an advantage of the SB infernal, as we have less options to drop quick goblins (if they don't hold FoW) or prepare a winning line aside Ad Nauseam, as lifepoints quickly drop anyways and render the SB infernal near useless (stormcount for goblins aside) after one or two swings with todays creature power creep. Cruise is a life independent card which also allows me to play with up to 10 handcards in situations where I want to kill my opponent with a natural chain while also having applications to dig you out of a hole after being hit hard by discard :)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Mind that you would invest your whole second turn not for disrupting but for switching Wish for Infernal. If we consider that you might have to Ponder or Brainstorm at some point your ad Nauseam is easily delayed to turn 4 instead and we're not even talking about what your opponent does/draws till when after your turn 1 disruption in this case

I just expect my midgame to evolve around the natural 10-count or PIF rather than Ad Nauseam. The whole question boils down to how effective we expect Ad Nauseams to be once we entered our third or forth turns in regard to opponents damage output while we have to slice through his/her defense. For me, the value of AN drops quite fast unless you have the pleasure to play against various forms of control reaching from Miracles (Counterbalance aside) to Loam to 12-post, with the later two being prime examples where the SB Infernal imo shines. We could still discuss if the increased options to drop turn 1 goblins or Ad Nauseam with a 4th MB infernal would not beat these decks as well or even better (Counterbalance, Chalice, etc.).

Storm has traditionally an easy time to dismember control if it has enough time to sculpt a hand and tear apart defense as well as racing pure aggro decks. I'm always looking for an edge against our main-issue, which is aggro-control and here I struggle to see an advantage of the SB infernal, as we have less options to drop quick goblins (if they don't hold FoW) or prepare a winning line aside Ad Nauseam, as lifepoints quickly drop anyways and render the SB infernal near useless (stormcount for goblins aside) after one or two swings with todays creature power creep. Cruise is a life independent card which also allows me to play with up to 10 handcards in situations where I want to kill my opponent with a natural chain while also having applications to dig you out of a hole after being hit hard by discard :)

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Why do we have to spend out second turn tapping out? As I stated above, nine mana isn't difficult to pull off – even in one turn. Not to mention, even if you did, turn one Duress followed by turn two Wish and then on your third turn, Therapy into Infernal -> Ad Nauseam isn't unreasonable.

Miracles is a match-up where the sideboard Infernal definitely shines as Empty isn't a great option and most Miracles players side in Rest in Peace leaving Wish being rather lack luster. Wish for Infernal to Ad Nauseam on turn three would likely leave you in the ballpark life-total of 14 assuming that their Delver flipped, this isn't that unheard of and it's not difficult to win from there.

Cruise doesn't seem great with Rite of Flame or Past in Flames. By the sounds of it, you're too invested in "Natural Chains" which really only happens in this deck after turns of "draw-go". Also, your above statement is a fantasy. You're going to resolve Cruise already having seven cards in hand and in the graveyard? Highly unlikely.

Yes, it is unlikely. I however can not remember that I've ever had the Situation of having 9 mana, a fine lifecount and my opponent defenseless while playing against Delver.dec either. :/

I feel pretty comfortable slowly working towards EtW/PIF/Chain in Delver-matchups as with Probes, Infernal->Wish->ToA and your opponents reactions, the required 9-10 stormcount are easy to reach. I rarely try to force the Ad Nauseam Route here

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Yes, it is unlikely. I however can not remember that I've ever had the Situation of having 9 mana, a fine lifecount and my opponent defenseless while playing against Delver.dec either.

I feel pretty comfortable slowly working towards EtW/PIF/Chain in Delver-matchups as with Probes, Infernal->Wish->ToA and your opponents reactions, the required 9-10 stormcount are easy to reach. I rarely try to force the Ad Nauseam Route here

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Do none of your Delver opponents play Stifle or Flusterstorm? While it can happen, the spell chain is a liability at times. They need to not have countermagic to initially stop you and then not having Flusterstorm or Stifle while they're not denying your mana AND you need time to build up to 8 cards or in your proposed example, 10 cards.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Do none of your Delver opponents play Stifle or Flusterstorm? While it can happen, the spell chain is a liability at times. They need to not have countermagic to initially stop you and then not having Flusterstorm or Stifle while they're not denying your mana AND you need time to build up to 8 cards or in your proposed example, 10 cards.

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They do and without having to care much about my lifecount I can take my time to strip those from their hands and either drop a two turn clock of Goblins or kill them directly. You can remove my pondering of Treasue Cruise in this matchup or the extreme example of 10 cards in hand as I'm already used to tackle the Tempo-matchups the way described by disrupting/cantripping/drawing/develop mana for 4-5 turns before trying to combo. Depending on your hand configuration and your opponents Self-inflicted lifeloss, Finishing your opponent with ToA isn't even unreasonable with only 6 card in hand

@Lem and maybe Vercadium and Bryant:
I'm with you 100% about I.Tutor in base, maths are maths... Bahamut also agrees with you sure..., I remember he played 3 B.Wish! which seems more logical... and now even we have a card such as Treasure Cruise, Thanks fr shoing me that card... Unless M.Tutor is unbanned I won't play 3 I.T in base, the unique lists which ran 3 I.T. were when TES played with 2 M.Tutor, don't you remember? now you are decreasing in 2 the number of threats. Well definately all statements Lem mentioned...
EDIT: Vs Miracles 1st Game I prefer 4th I.T. also.

Question Lem: Will you try the list with the base of 2 Basics or the base with Full Nonbasic some posts below you mentioned.
Anther point: Eve the players play Runed Hallo I still be on No G.S., you always can B.W.->V.Snare, a example the other day I won Merfolks in a similar scenario: I just could not play 0 costs and I A.N and was able to Bounce Chalice for the win! Even with a Chalice At 0!

@To whom may interest and related to that new Mana configuration:
Doing some maths with that mana base:

Gemstone is a card that provide us 100% of Mana -> we have this card in the 12 land configuration. (4 Fetches 2Volcanic2U.Sea 4Gemstone)
U.Sea, I could say it provides us a moreless 66% of the mana if we count we need 1/3 of the mana required and not using the Numers of Different Type Of Mana
V.Island same as U.Sea but a litle less because of the Numers of Different Type Of Mana
Well Fetches behaves like a Gemstone but differently as once you fetched you'll have that Type of Mana in a inmutable way so I'm not sure wich percentage to assign , maybe 75% or more.

The New list has 2 Basics and 13 lands, I asume you use both maybe as a .5 Land but that is a mistake, Even Some number of Gitaxian can be considered as any percentage of a land. as this provide us a Percentage of drawing some of ourpolivalent lands (now notice that G.P. has lost effectiveness adding such kind of lands...) , now as soon as you have landed one of this basics it will give mana of a 33% Type (more for Swamp and less for Island) from now on and forever.

It's ok, I don't mind use as the 13rd land a Boseiju if you want!, but I don't think that Island OR Swamp can be the 12th land...

Numers of Different Type Of Mana: (That was the reason to not to play the 2nd volcanic over Sea...)
9 Red Sources
16 Black Sources
8 Blue Sources

I think some of these cenarios can occur:
Island and a Ponder OR B.S: and not more lands -->Mull?, loose if not finding another land? the other land will produce B OR R and Blue, so you're f*** if you want to use RoF and Discard as example...
What if Only Swamp? Directly mulligan?
Well drawing both cards is not likely to occur.
If I want 2 land in my hand sure I dont want any of those...
The problem with tempo is that they deny us the mana by wasteland but the unique thing we need to do is playing more lands (I do at its simplest: Land Cantrip if no other mana, if other mana in hand then Discard having in mind daze.), sitting down on an island vs tempo is not the best thing you can do if you have no other lands..., once different thing is ANT, they have 15 lands and some more number of cantrips...

Even some ANT lists played any number of Gemstone...
Anyway this is just theory, I really didn't tested any of the fetch build, the most disturbing thing I did was -1Gemstone+1Fetch... and quickly returned back... Fear!

Well I'm happy about that new card and see if the 4 A.Decay 2 Nedle approach Works for me. I still want an island I really feel that sometimes 13 lands are needed vs tempo strategyes, I feel the difference.. thats why I need, maybe nedle helps me to this purpose also.


@Togores:
Thats what I'll do:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Duress
1 Tropical Island
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

Still 4Gemstone... I fear that change... you can play 4th in side if you want, you save 1 slot, I prefer 2 discard in side, just as strategy vs S&T and Reanimator if exists

I plan to do the followingvs miracles:
-3C.Mox
-1EtW
-2G.P.
-1I.T. (4 in base)
=
+4A.D.
+2Nedle
+1T.Island

Sure lot of here disagree about G.P. but I absolutly want to draw A.D. and Definately Ponder in here is the best card to get this goal, this is a different thing to have in mind as an approach vs different archetypes, in here we want to draw as many A.D. as we can the reason is simple: You need them for:
1. C.B.
2. Senseis EoT.
3. Possible Mages, Canonist or even Vendilion.

Please make a favor, try this vs Ballestin and Co. and let me know Storm Mate! NOTE:I can understand -2Ponder the Full Of Gitaxian, but I won't do this vs Ballestin next time... it`s really easy to find out which cards are in hand from 4 turn , vs Ballestin and Co....

Nedle on the other side seems wonderfull, I'd like to draw it soon, but is also incredible in the combo moment is great if you were able to avoid those balance! I disagree with you on this
- If your strategy consists in not having Decays, then nedle is needed as a 3 or 4 of as you want to land it soon.
- Otherwise if you prefer the Decay Way, then I don't think it's neccessary to use more of them - 2 are enough. I think you need to considérate it as a Silence, Sure I will find scenarios in which even the op.. has a Senseis in play, and I'd prefer to keep it until the Combo Turn....

@Bryant:
I propose you to add the 4th Nedle instead of 3rd Pyro and see what happens., I'd like to know in here the HowToSide vs Miracles...
I can't disagree more about the 2 Basic Land Configuration - 13 Lands build in theory...
2B.W in hand sucks more than 2I.T. most of the times.

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

@Lem and maybe Vercadium and Bryant:
I'm with you 100% about I.Tutor in base, maths are maths... Bahamut also agrees with you sure..., I remember he played 3 B.Wish! which seems more logical... and now even we have a card such as Treasure Cruise... Unless M.Tutor is unbanned I won't play I.T in base, the unique lists which ran 3 I.T. were when TES played with 2 M.Tutor, do you remember? now you are decreasing in 2 the number of threats.

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the topic is about personal experience. Preparing for longer grindier games with SB Infernal and running basics is fine depending on the metagame, but that simply isn't everybodys take on this storm subtype. ANT players also have their preferences in running Preordain as a set or more tutors more PIFs etc.

Like at work, I prefer a reduced and interconnected design, therefore I'm fine durdling with Infernal or Wish in matchups which turn out grindier so I don't have to clutter my maindeck with a dozen actual protections spells like some other pilots suggested in a certain german forum. I want all the explosiveness game 1 to overpower decks which are prepared to battle a fair fight. Thats why I stick to the 4 infernals and only 6 discard spells.

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Question Lem: Will you try the list with the base of 2 Basics or the base with Full Nonbasic some posts below you mentioned.
Anther point: Eve the players play Runed Hallo I still be on No G.S., you always can B.W.->V.Snare, a example the other day I won Merfolks in a similar scenario: I just could play 0 costs and I A.N and was able to Bounce Chalice for the win! Even with a Chalice At 0!

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I don't understand the question. I tested the 3c Pyromancer list I posted a while ago; I tested with the 3c list Bryant posted on FB; I tested the all dual/fetch list I posted; I'll plan to continue testing both lists AND Treasure Cruise with a focus on the miracles- & Tempo-matchup. I test most lists unless they appear retarded on first sight, before I drop a line on them. Runed Halo was more of a joke made as it is a hatebear without power/toughness :)

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@To whom may interest and related to that new Mana configuration:
Doing some maths with that mana base:

Gemstone is a card that provide us 100% of Mana -> we have this card in the 12 land configuration. (4 Fetches 2Volcanic2U.Sea 4Gemstone)
U.Sea, I could say it provides us a moreless 66% of the mana if we count we need 1/3 of the mana required and not using the Numers of Different Type Of Mana
V.Island same as U.Sea but a litle less because of the Numers of Different Type Of Mana
Well Fetches behaves like a Gemstone but differently as once you fetched you'll have that Type of Mana in a inmutable way so I'm not sure wich percentage to assign , maybe 75% or more.

The New list has 2 Basics and 13 lands, I asume you use both maybe as a .5 Land but that is a mistake, Even Some number of Gitaxian can be considered as any percentage of a land. as this provide us a Percentage of drawing some of ourpolivalent lands (now notice that G.P. has lost effectiveness adding such kind of lands...) , now as soon as you have landed one of this basics it will give mana of a 33% Type (more for Swamp and less for Island) from now on and forever.

It's ok, I don't mind use as the 13rd land a Boseiju if you want!, but I don't think that Island OR Swamp can be the 12th land...

Numers of Different Type Of Mana: (That was the reason to not to play the 2nd volcanic over Sea...)
9 Red Sources
16 Black Sources
8 Blue Sources

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You can't set up an analysis on that kind of level. You just have to keep a few things in mind:

1) number of actual green sources for Decay
2) Miracles plays no wastelands so 1 tropical is enough
3) you can sculpt a hand with tropical and Cantrips
4) you can't keep a hand with a swamp as your only land
5) how do the basics affect my mulligans
6) how mana IMS do I need if one of my lands is a basic
7) can I afford losing lands to wasteland with X lands in the deck
8) do I prefer "ignoring" wastelands or rendering them useless
9) how many lands do I need to have good chances to see two lands in two turns
10) relation of fetches to fetchable targets
11) how does my boarding look like and affect my manacurve
12) categorize mana-requirements depending on urgency not on sheer number of spells needing color X (see: us running Volcanic #2 indtead of Badlands)
13) value of shuffle effects
14) etc

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I think some of these cenarios can occur:
Island and a Ponder OR B.S: and not more lands -->Mull?, loose if not finding another land? the other land will produce B OR R and Blue, so you're f*** if you want to use RoF and Discard as example...
What if Only Swamp? Directly mulligan?
Well drawing both cards is not likely to occur.
If I want 2 land in my hand sure I dont want any of those...
The problem with tempo is that they deny us the mana by wasteland but the unique thing we need to do is playing more lands (I do at its simplest: Land Cantrip if no other mana, if other mana in hand then Discard having in mind daze.), sitting down on an island vs tempo is not the best thing you can do if you have no other lands..., once different thing is ANT, they have 15 lands and some more number of cantrips...

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this topic is incredible important as we have less lands than ANT. Swamp + Brainstorm + fetch is a shitty base to start the game with, while an island instead of the swamp still needs one more IMS to produce all 3 colors. A dual however manages to support all 3 main-colors via 2 lands. Here I feel we have suddenly a paradoxon between running basics and the decks strengh to combo fast. For me this one feels similar to the Cabal Rituals paired with Gemstone Mines and Moxen: cards dictate completely different directions in terms of the gameplan.

Basics are fine if you plan for longer games in general, which is not my personal plan (see SB Infernal topic). Abusing Burning Wish to fetch discard or EtW (double red) can get really awkward with basics

P.S. to play through Wasteland with the all fetch/dual approach and without getting constantly blown out by the first wasteland, 14 lands appears to be the softspot

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I think where we differ is that you're dead set on being as fast as possible, where I don't think it's as critical in the current metagame – regarding the Infernal Tutor in the sideboard. Basics don't actually slow us down as much as you think they would, regardless of what you're saying, between Petals and Chrome Mox even hands with just Swamp are capable of getting there on turn one or two.

I have a question for folks who have been trying the 3 color lists.

Right now I'm running as my mana base:

2x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Bloodstained Mire

2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Island



In my testing and at Friday Night Legacy last night, I'm finding it consistently more difficult getting red and I find myself having to use lotus petals and chrome moxen for red much more than before (Imprinting a RoF to be able to cast Burning Wish feels so bad). I also feel more vulnerable to having my Rites countered, because I've usually sunk my red source into casting the first one. I had a rite dazed last night and if my opponent hadn't misplayed, I would have lost the game.

I'm almost considering badlands as my 13th land. That was one of my favorite uses of Gemstone Mine (T1 Discard, T2 Rite of Flame/Burning Wish mana source), and I think having a RB source might pay off for me long-term.

Anyone else having any trouble with this? Am I using my fetches for basics too soon, leaving myself unable to fetch up a red source on my combo turn? I guess what I'm asking is, how has using the 3c mana base changed what you fetch for and how you use fetches?

Edit: Also, hands with Island and one fetch make finding all 3 colors by t2 much harder without badlands in the mix.

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Originally Posted by redhamjack

I have a question for folks who have been trying the 3 color lists.

Right now I'm running as my mana base:

2x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Bloodstained Mire

2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Island



In my testing and at Friday Night Legacy last night, I'm finding it consistently more difficult getting red and I find myself having to use lotus petals and chrome moxen for red much more than before (Imprinting a RoF to be able to cast Burning Wish feels so bad). I also feel more vulnerable to having my Rites countered, because I've usually sunk my red source into casting the first one. I had a rite dazed last night and if my opponent hadn't misplayed, I would have lost the game.

I'm almost considering badlands as my 13th land. That was one of my favorite uses of Gemstone Mine (T1 Discard, T2 Rite of Flame/Burning Wish mana source), and I think having a RB source might pay off for me long-term.

Anyone else having any trouble with this? Am I using my fetches for basics too soon, leaving myself unable to fetch up a red source on my combo turn? I guess what I'm asking is, how has using the 3c mana base changed what you fetch for and how you use fetches?

Edit: Also, hands with Island and one fetch make finding all 3 colors by t2 much harder without badlands in the mix.

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First of all, no one suggested Basics in a 12 lands shell. It was always 13. Due to the fact that you want a permanent red mana Source to use Burning Wish as a toolbox like for fetching discard or stuff, going for basics early and without pressure is imo a dead end. Badlands don't fix your problem of needing BR during your combo turn if you start with an Island, it's just another land that doesn't cast cantrips. I had a bit more time to toy with the manabase feat. Basics and I just don't like it if i don't have access to all 3 colors via 2 IMS.

I think I am with Bryant here. Speed, while a draw card for the deck is a secondary draw after having an answer to almost any situation. That is for me why I picked this over ANT. With the reduction of combo over the last year and a half, pushing more to a fair format, I can see being willing to wait a turn, set up and reinforce your position as being a strong strategy. To this end, while untested with Basics I like the idea behind them (though I am unsure if I will like them in practice) but what I think is most important is filling out the toolbox. That Tutor should be in your toolbox. It opens up options you otherwise just do not have at times.

As for Treasure Cruise. How does it help our toolbox? What does it offers us that we should cut another tool for it? At this point I am not seeing much in the way of reasons to run it here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I think I am with Bryant here. Speed, while a draw card for the deck is a secondary draw after having an answer to almost any situation. That is for me why I picked this over ANT. With the reduction of combo over the last year and a half, pushing more to a fair format, I can see being willing to wait a turn, set up and reinforce your position as being a strong strategy. To this end, while untested with Basics I like the idea behind them (though I am unsure if I will like them in practice) but what I think is most important is filling out the toolbox. That Tutor should be in your toolbox. It opens up options you otherwise just do not have at times.

As for Treasure Cruise. How does it help our toolbox? What does it offers us that we should cut another tool for it? At this point I am not seeing much in the way of reasons to run it here.

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Using the term "toolbox" in regards to the SB Infernal is totally misleading as all it does is fetching Ad Nauseam with a turn delay or with an increased cost (two things we should evade imo). You gain an additional 3 Virtual Infernals which are imo not that important if you battle against Tempo or combo, but limit your options to use (additional) MB Infernals to double protection, lands, LEDs or Rituals (For PIF or for stormcount in a Tutor chain) which is imo the toolbox-character you are talking about. I'm a sceptic towards trimming the mainboard for the midgame as ANT has clear advantages as a storm deck turn 4 and ongoing and while there are enough situations in which we have to pass that strategic timemark, I decided that I want to maximize my advantage game 1 and overwhelm opponents prepared to fight a fair fight and board out the Infernal in games 2&3 in which we face more hate anyways and I prefer real SB Cards in place of the Infernal. It's also not the case that the 3rd Duress, taking the slot of the 4h MB Infernal, offers more flexibility.

For Treasure Cruise, I already hinted on situations I found it useful for, including games which escalate into discard slugfests on both sides or to make up for cards invested to overcome defense. Cruise supports disruptive, slow hands filled with several cantrips and discard. I guess everyone fanned such hands at times, right? Cruise adds life-Independent consistancy for grindier games without giving up any MB potential. So far, we never had a card taking advantage of the undesireable need to grind opponents outs of options, or had access to actual cardadvantage aside of Ad Nauseam itself. You may wanna test it yourself

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Using the term "toolbox" in regards to the SB Infernal is totally misleading as all it does is fetching Ad Nauseam with a turn delay or with an increased cost (two things we should evade imo). You gain an additional 3 Virtual Infernals which are imo not that important if you battle against Tempo or combo, but limit your options to use (additional) MB Infernals to double protection, lands, LEDs or Rituals (For PIF or for stormcount in a Tutor chain) which is imo the toolbox-character you are talking about. I'm a sceptic towards trimming the mainboard for the midgame as ANT has clear advantages as a storm deck turn 4 and ongoing and while there are enough situations in which we have to pass that strategic timemark, I decided that I want to maximize my advantage game 1 and overwhelm opponents prepared to fight a fair fight and board out the Infernal in games 2&3 in which we face more hate anyways and I prefer real SB Cards in place of the Infernal. It's also not the case that the 3rd Duress, taking the slot of the 4h MB Infernal, offers more flexibility.

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It offers additional Goblins as well which is incredibly relevant.