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I'm very certain I saw more Punishing Jund for a reason at the Invi and the Open: Punishing Fires provides a repeatable way to kill off all their other creatures, meaning Liliana is effective more often, and they can pack REB (4 of in the board).Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
-Matt
^^ This. They play more Lilianas (usually 4 vs 3 or less in Junk) and don't usually have many problems killing the non-TNN creatures to set up a Liliana sacrifice.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Golgari Charm for Jund from the board is also really sweet since they only have to worry about killing Dark Confidant (vs some Junk lists that run Lingering Souls).
Ancient Grudge from the board is also much better at dealing with Equipment than anything I can think of in Junk colors.
another way would be to add a evasive green beater, that does not care about TNN if you want to keep the GSZ package
i for my part did not yet test against TNN, but at the moment i run lots of discard
4 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
3 GSZ (with 2 dryad arbor)
2 lingering souls
3 knights
2 liliana
no loxodon smiter
i often happen to use my GSZ as a additional discard spell together with cabal therapy which is why i will go up to 4 cabal therapy and down to 3 thoughtseize, plus i consider going to 3 lilianas, cutting a knight (even if it hurts :frown:)
sac effects are probably not the perfect answer to TNN though (something like celestial flare is better, but WW is to much for our deck)
another way to handle this problem is to kill the equipment obviously
if someone is intrested in my list i will gladly post it, but still you have to consider i did not test against TNN and have no idea how my list would do against it, but i like the idea of engineered plague on merfolk
Matt,
1st thoughts:
Lands: if you have KotR -Use Maze of ith!
i am sure that you know the trick (attack-dmg-untap our creature - then second main) with this trick we can first bump Kotr then untap it. the same with creature with sword on it.
2nd thoughts:
cutting Bob is ok, but look you want to produce a ADV. in my build you want to draw Equip - 4 mystic, you want to draw green business creature - 3 zenith. 1 library is really enough.
-2 qasali is minimum i think. ideal for nfriendly equip /sneak / library / balance ...bla bla bla...
1 main gaddoc is GREAT !! use GSZ for 2...90% players think mhmm Ooze?Goyf?...no gaddock!! kill your Natural Order, Fow, Verdict, Moat, Miracle, Misdirecrion, Dread Return, Explosivs, Past in Flames, Tendrils...
3rd thoughts: you consider SB options. Back to my list and look again. You have answer against most popular decks. Agains Elves its so easy for me MU, against Combo we have all hate deck against TNN we have 8 disc, 2 lili, 2 charms 1 plague on merfolk, ....
Please take some test games with my list ;)
So Matt, I guess the question should be asked:
Other than the love for the deck (and maybe budgetary reasons), why play this over Jund or Shardless BUG?
You know that I was on Junk for a long, long time. But even back then, I firmly believed that SFM was the way to go. After that, Esperblade was simply a better deck to support SFM, so I switched.
Now, we're looking to beat TNN, and out of the 4 BGx decks (Jund, Shardless BUG, Nic Fit and Junk) able to run TNN hate, Junk seems to be falling behind.
However, perhaps Junk has better non-TNN matchups than the other decks do, making it a meta "wash" in effect? Any insight?
People subconsciously tend to stay within certain archetype restrictions and don't really reconsider color choices. If they did so, we would all be playing MBC right now.
I think Punishing Jund is a really good deck right now, but I just don't post on that thread. I have it together to play as bad guy for my friends, but otherwise I don't play it. I know it's better positioned against TNN than Junk, but Junk has a better combo matchup due to the hatebears we can run, such as Thalia, Teeg, Canonist, and the ability to play GSZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I actually think Shardless BUG needs a retool, since I really don't think that deck has enough ways to deal with TNN. They're running less removal than we are and no Liliana, with minimal counterpower. That deck was somewhat inconsistent prior to needing to deal with TNN. Now, I feel like that deck is a pile that needs to be worked over again, more so than our lists.
I think you should play Junk because of the mix of access to hatebears and answers and large, hard to deal with threats (Thalia, Teeg; STP and Decay; Goyf, Liliana, Knight, and now SFM).
@ HardBrain
I know how to use Maze of Ith, but you're running 21 lands in your list and one of them is a Maze. In my experience, it is too few to consistently draw good hands that develop well over the game. I run 23 and sometimes still get manascrewed. I cut the Maze and added 2 mana producing lands just so my production was a bit better, especially since I have some tempo players in my metagame.
I don't need Gaddock Teeg main for my meta. Sure, he does tons of work, but I'd just rather have him in my board, for me.
I'll test some games with your list as is, but my experience with the deck and my meta also means I have to make some changes ;)
-Matt
Another point for the Junk decks vs Jund is in particular, KoTR is huge in the Sneaky Show matchup.
Matt, whole my post here is about Junk in unknowned metagame. Its not good put here Decklist which depends on local meta. Its obv that all players will make some changes agains their local shop meta to be more effective aginst 15?30? players in the same place every event;) hehe
I give list which i am able to play in event lige 300-1200 players with unknown meta ;)
And s my 3 pens about Jund vs Junk - i prefer junk because we have Better MU against SnT...popular strong deck. enough Obv Kotr/Mystic are great ad they add value to junk. In the other hand Jund has PF but....Junk is more flexibe and could be better prepared for metagame than Junk imo.
Played this over the weekend at a Legacy tournament. Don't remember the entire list.
ANT 2-0
Punishing Fire Nic Fit 1-2
Fairy Stompy 2-0 (played TNN)
Sneak and Show 2-0
23 Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Treetop Village
1 Dryard Arbor
15 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Scavengine Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Dreg Mangler
22 Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Raven's Crime
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
15 Sideboard
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
2 Duress
2 Chainer's Edict
2 ?
1 Krosan Grip
1 Raven's Crime
1 Kitchen Finks
Was the Chainer's Edicts flashback relevant enough to warrant it over Diabolic Edict?
Yes. It's also cute with Liliana and Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by syfilisx
I am not really sure about cutting Dark Confidants in fear of -1/-1 sweepers. In terms of post-sideboard games I don't think many people would board them against us, since they really only kill Bobs (unless you run Souls, but that build fell out of grace). Furthermore if they are bringing sb cards against 'that troublesome creature' - I am very happy if it is a -1/-1 sweeper rather than RiP. Bob also does not need to live forever - if he draws a card or two and than trades 1 for 1 with their -1/-1 effect we are fine. If anything
If the worry is about MD -1/-1 effects,they are not persistent enough yet. While blanking them sounds tempting, I am not sure it is worth the card advantage he provides. Sylvan library is card selection rather than CA majority of time and we do need bob to keep up with all the Ancestral Visions and friends.
Quote:
Dreg Mangler
wat
i think its an anti-planeswalker GSZ-target
i know that on first sight he seems awefull, but give him some thought.... besides i would say haste is one of the best abilities a creature can have
Hoogland is on camera on SCG with Junk Depths.
Dropped game 1 thanks to a TNN. Living Wished for a Qasali to kill the Batterskull, but UWR Delver Brainstormed up Sword F&I. Peacekeeper might've been a better grab.
If only pernicious deed had a creature equivalent to wish for!
I think Orzhov was close enough in game 3 lol
I'll be trying this over the next couple weeks, and hopefully leading up to the March SCG in Seattle barring no major meta shifts:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of fire and Ice
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
No Dark Confidant since he's a slower turn 2 play and dies to the -1 effects, and it allows me to fit in all the stuff I want. The build is obviousyl very aggressive and built more like the true junk decks of a few years ago, but now with SFM. It's something I'm trying just to get away from tweaking old builds for TNN (minus a card or two here, add something here or there).
Ideally, you do what you were meant to do in 2008: Hand disruption, removal, drop threat. Every creature we have is a large threat to take care of. The sideboard would likely look like:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Chainer's Edict
Gaddock Teeg is less awesome with no GSZ, so just play more of them! Other choices to be determined through testing, of course. I haven't given up, just been doing some much needed contemplation.
-Matt
i have been thinking of using SFM instead of Bob as well, even if it breaks my heart, but i do not think i will be able to cut GSZ as i love it so much
either way i would love more of your insight on the list you are using now, specially on the Bob vs. SFM matter