Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Sascja

With decks in the top8 of ovino, you do not think would have been better Vendilion main deck?
The only "bad" match up, where vendilion are not good, is merfolk.

Last question, the mountain is so bad main deck?
Not being able to put REB agaist RUG deck is a real shame (and every blue deck with wasteland), especially now with TC e DTT.


ps I apologize for my bad English

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Couple thoughts.

Cliques are extremely powerful in this deck. In the list I've been running currently, I have three in the main deck. (Unless that week I happen to switch to Ein's... I like trying as many lists as possible). With the ponder build, you are trading power for consistency. You can more consistently find what you are looking for, which, at the base of things, can give you an advantage. Ponder replaces clique, as well as the third snapcaster, as they are both accomplishing similar goals. Clique is a threat that helps filter your deck or distrupt your opponent, and snapcaster generates extra card advantage. Ponder generates pure card advantage and is an extra shuffle effect. I realize that that doesn't really answer the question, as I have not looked at the top 8, but having 3 Cliques out of the board sounds like it'd make things easier.

Mountain is bad if you don't have MD Blast effects, as it makes some number of opening hands incredibly awkward. You take a bit of a hit in the delver matchups as REB becomes unavailable, but with 3 Flusterstorms, 3 Cliques, and EE in the board, PLUS 3 snaps and 4 swords in the main, you should be able to strongarm your way through the matchup. This is also, on a sidenote, why Disenchant is run over Wear // Tear. You want to be grabbing a red source only when you absolutely need it, or when you know your opponent isn't running wastelands, or is only running it as like, a one or two-of, and the red is relevant in the matchup (Stoneblade). Not to mention between your MD and SB you shouldn't NEED REB effects vs. Delver decks (though, I can see how it'd be nice, and am in fact running a basic mountain in my current go-to list)

I've said this before and I'll say it again, TC and DTT are going to change legacy, but they will not shift the meta. I don't think two cards should force you into playing a basic mountain and screw up your manabase just to counteract it. Between flusterstorm, counterspell, snapcaster, and force of will, you should be more than capable of handling the card. REB effects are the ace in the hole vs. the card, but in at least the eyes of ein's deck, where almost 50% of the time you require a blue source on turn 1 (have ponder, don't have top), you don't want to take the chance.

That being said, I'm very much in the camp of building Miracles the way you want to build it, and find a build that suits you. That's why I'm so ok with trying out different builds. I've only been playing the deck since March. Currently, I happen to like the Legendary Build. In two weeks, I could be back on Ponders. That, to me, is in part what makes the deck great.

EDIT for pedanticism ;)

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Originally Posted by exallium

Clique is a threat that generates card advantage, as is snapcaster.

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I don't mean to nitpick but...
Clique does not generate card advantage. It replaces the card in your hand/opponent's hand. That's not advantage or disadvantage. You're disrupting their game plan or putting useless cards in your hand on the bottom of your library.

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Originally Posted by sauce

I don't mean to nitpick but...
Clique does not generate card advantage. It replaces the card in your hand/opponent's hand. That's not advantage or disadvantage. You're disrupting their game plan or putting useless cards in your hand on the bottom of your library.

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Distruption, sure. I guess I was thinking less about removing a card / gaining a card altogether and thinking more along the lines of the filtering effect. It's a high variance effect, but can definitely make your hand better / their hand worse. Depends on how you define card advantage. If you just think raw number of cards in hand, no, this does not provide such a thing, but if you replace, say, a dead entreat you have no interest in keeping around, and draw, say, something useful at the current stage in the game, I'd see that as advantageous. Of course that's neither here or there.

Hopefully people know what I mean / meant.

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Originally Posted by exallium

Couple thoughts.
Cliques are extremely powerful in this deck. In the list I've been running currently, I have three in the main deck. (Unless that week I happen to switch to Ein's... I like trying as many lists as possible). With the ponder build, you are trading power for consistency. You can more consistently find what you are looking for, which, at the base of things, can give you an advantage. Ponder replaces clique, as well as the third snapcaster, as they are both accomplishing similar goals. Clique is a threat that helps filter your deck or distrupt your opponent, and snapcaster generates extra card advantage. Ponder generates pure card advantage and is an extra shuffle effect. I realize that that doesn't really answer the question, as I have not looked at the top 8, but having 3 Cliques out of the board sounds like it'd make things easier.

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Fundamentally, here's the biggest difference: Ponder allows you to make your land drops, which is perhaps the 2nd most important thing in Miracles. As a control deck, you need to make your land drop and not lose to Wastelands, so many matches are due to Wasteland. By making land drops, you get yourself out of tempo deck's Daze and perhaps Pierce.

However, after those land drops, Ponder's return starts to diminish. You can achieve shuffling effect of Ponder by using Top + fetchlands. When you reach mid-game, you really want Clique to do its wonderful things like shoving equipment back into the library, taking out combo pieces, ambushing a Planeswalker, and trading it against dudes when you lack removal. Last but not least, I can't count how many times Lossett just kill his opponent outright with Clique. Snapcaster is not even close.

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Originally Posted by exallium

Couple thoughts.
I've said this before and I'll say it again, TC and DTT are going to change legacy, but they will not shift the meta. I don't think two cards should force you into playing a basic mountain and screw up your manabase just to counteract it. Between flusterstorm, counterspell, snapcaster, and force of will, you should be more than capable of handling the card. REB effects are the ace in the hole vs. the card, but in at least the eyes of ein's deck, where almost 50% of the time you require a blue source on turn 1 (have ponder, don't have top), you don't want to take the chance.

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I disagree. When TC and DTT become popular, Goyf will start to lose its effectiveness. Goyf usually can become 5/6 easily; now..., it's very possible it'll just be a 3/4. Hence, The meta is changing, fast. Bob Huang mentioned that Swiftspear is Red's new Goyf, in his deck at the least. Here's another trend: TC just laughs at Ancestral Vision; yes, the threshold requirement at sorcery speed is that easy, why wait for all the turns or bother to set-up with shardless + brainstorm?

The problem with TC and DTT is that when they cast it, they're usually out of Pierce range. Hence, without running a specific build, you need to counterspell it, or double Pierce using Snapcaster. That means you have to run more CS and less Pierce, which makes you more vulnerable in other match-ups. One solution is just run Lossett's build, because MD Blasts have no problem taking care of these cards, along with Delvers.

Overall, it's time to adopt, especially if you're going to NJ.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Fundamentally, here's the biggest difference: Ponder allows you to make your land drops, which is perhaps the 2nd most important thing in Miracles. As a control deck, you need to make your land drop and not lose to Wastelands, so many matches are due to Wasteland. By making land drops, you get yourself out of tempo deck's Daze and perhaps Pierce.

However, after those land drops, Ponder's return starts to diminish. You can achieve shuffling effect of Ponder by using Top + fetchlands. When you reach mid-game, you really want Clique to do its wonderful things like shoving equipment back into the library, taking out combo pieces, ambushing a Planeswalker, and trading it against dudes when you lack removal. Last but not least, I can't count how many times Lossett just kill his opponent outright with Clique. Snapcaster is not even close.



I disagree. When TC and DTT become popular, Goyf will start to lose its effectiveness. Goyf usually can become 5/6 easily; now..., it's very possible it'll just be a 3/4. Hence, The meta is changing, fast. Bob Huang mentioned that Swiftspear is Red's new Goyf, in his deck at the least. Here's another trend: TC just laughs at Ancestral Vision; yes, the threshold requirement at sorcery speed is that easy, why wait for all the turns or bother to set-up with shardless + brainstorm?

The problem with TC and DTT is that when they cast it, they're usually out of Pierce range. Hence, without running a specific build, you need to counterspell it, or double Pierce using Snapcaster. That means you have to run more CS and less Pierce, which makes you more vulnerable in other match-ups. One solution is just run Lossett's build, because MD Blasts have no problem taking care of these cards, along with Delvers.

Overall, it's time to adopt, especially if you're going to NJ.

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Again, I say one thing and mean another. Legacy's constantly changing, and this'll definitely represent a CHANGE in the meta, but I don't think the top decks are going to suddenly become invalid (besides shardless, which seems to have gotten the solid shaft by these new cards), which is what I meant by SHIFT. Miracles doesn't become worse, you just need to plan ahead.

I'm actually currently running Chi Hoi Yim's build, which is very close to what Joe runs, and includes MD blast. I've been very happy with this build so far.

Can you elaborate on adopt? I'm not sure what you're referring to. Did you mean adapt?

EDIT: I'm quite upset that Shardless is probably going to die off. It was back for such a short period of time.

Lists for most of the Ovino Top 16 have been posted - http://www.mtgq.it/liste-top16-main-event-legacy/
There are 5 Miracle Players, the 2 Ponder builds already mentioned; A Clique/Karakas build; a 4 Jace/3Entreat build; one not listed.

Clique/Spell Pierce vs Ponders seems more based on preference.

Spell Pierce and Cliques are better vs combo while Ponders increase consistency vs fair decks.

I run zero ponders and can accept the general decrease in consistency against fair decks. But that's my general preference. Also without Cliques this deck is slow as a turtle in Killing combo decks.

Joe described it perfectly at the invitational. His deck is better suited for the combo match up and Philips list is better suited for the fair decks.

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Originally Posted by exallium

Can you elaborate on adopt? I'm not sure what you're referring to. Did you mean adapt?

EDIT: I'm quite upset that Shardless is probably going to die off. It was back for such a short period of time.

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Yes, I mean adapt, stupid auto-correct. This is not the first time. Decks don't die off, they just evolve. Abrupt Decay + Liliana + Jace = good "Sultai" decks, see? Already evolving with the deck names. As to Miracles, yes different builds focus on different things. I'm not even sure if the Ponder builds can take the fair deck MU well now, with all the Cruises and Digs running around (people prefer to test new cards).

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I'm not even sure if the Ponder builds can take the fair deck MU well now, with all the Cruises and Digs running around (people prefer to test new cards).

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Wow, for the first time I'm realizing that Treasure Cruise s**ts on Counterbalance. Not that it was great in that matchup in the first place, but game 1's will be worse if you rely on the combo and try and wait them out of cards. You can still counter the majority of cards they draw off the cruise, but giving them Ancestral Visions just increases the number of Decays they draw, along with awkward casting cost spells. We don't run Remand in Legacy, but Venser at least should be better.

But maybe running as many cantrips as High Tide will be so much better at finding Terminus and Entreat that they'll prove better than incremental cards like Clique. I assume that 4 Ponders is better against Shardless.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Clique/Spell Pierce vs Ponders seems more based on preference.

Spell Pierce and Cliques are better vs combo while Ponders increase consistency vs fair decks.

I run zero ponders and can accept the general decrease in consistency against fair decks. But that's my general preference. Also without Cliques this deck is slow as a turtle in Killing combo decks.

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Hey guys this is Tomáš, thank you for your support.

Game 1 you hardlock all combo decks with CB. You do not need to be very fast. (you can still entreat) Game 2-3 to you have 3 Clique, 3 Flusterstorm...

I have found that, against Cruise, Counterbalance is a house. While you can not directly counter the Cruise, they almost never draw anything we cannot just hit with Balance anyway. So while they win the battle and draw 3,they lose the war and get to cast almost none of them anyway.

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Originally Posted by Koplinchen

Game 1 you hardlock all combo decks with CB. You do not need to be very fast. (you can still entreat) Game 2-3 to you have 3 Clique, 3 Flusterstorm...

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You don't hardlock Sneakshow with Counterbalance and even with 3 Clique, 3 Flusterstorm etc. Sneakshow is not a positive MU overall.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

Wow, for the first time I'm realizing that Treasure Cruise s**ts on Counterbalance. Not that it was great in that matchup in the first place, but game 1's will be worse if you rely on the combo and try and wait them out of cards. You can still counter the majority of cards they draw off the cruise, but giving them Ancestral Visions just increases the number of Decays they draw, along with awkward casting cost spells. We don't run Remand in Legacy, but Venser at least should be better.

But maybe running as many cantrips as High Tide will be so much better at finding Terminus and Entreat that they'll prove better than incremental cards like Clique. I assume that 4 Ponders is better against Shardless.

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I agree with what Dice Box says on CB versus Treasure Cruise decks. It's probably less of lock against Abrupt Decay, but that is not a problem since Miracles was even to good against Abrupt Decay decks before anyways. One of those decks, Shardless, is probably on its way out of the metagame, as much as I hate to say it. RIP Shardless :cry: The other BUG Deck, Team America, is not even guaranteed to maintain its rank either. BUG decks, at least those that were in the Tier One metagame prior to Khans, may generally see a decline. There is empirical evidence that this may be the case since Team America and Shardless BUG did pretty bad at Ovino according to one of the person's part of the TO staff I presume (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...and-info/page2).

I also think you are spot on with your second paragraph. The reason I believe that Miracles is the only good hard control deck at the moment in a fast and diverse format like legacy is because Sensei's Divining Top gives it unparalleled card quality. The card quality it provides is so good that I have been able to shirk off many Treasure Cruises because i just don't care as long as I have top I am still in the game. This is not to say it is important to get counterbalance top online as soon as you can against these decks, but I never felt like I was just completely dead when my opponents resolve Treasure Cruise unless I'm behind on board and have little to no resources left to interact with my opponent. As for whether playing 4-Ponder is correct or not, I am not going to say whether or not you guys should be playing it or it is the best build of Miracles. I do not have enough experience with the deck to feel like I can militantly push it like Ein is doing. However, I will say that I do prefer it and I think that playing 4 Ponder just makes Miracles ability to generate unparalleled card quality even better and more consistent, which is something you want in a more open field. For smaller metagames like your LGS I'm sure the other builds can do better depending on the given metagame's conditions.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

You don't hardlock Sneakshow with Counterbalance and even with 3 Clique, 3 Flusterstorm etc. Sneakshow is not a positive MU overall.

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Are we only talking Ein's list or Miracles in general? I think the Legends build has a fine matchup vs. Sneak and Show, because of Karakas, Venser, Blasts, Pierce, Needle, etc.

EDIT: by fine, I'm talking not bad. Yes, there are unwinnable hands but as long as you know what your board plan is and you know how to prioritize your spells you can definitely win.

jussayin: DTT is likely to replace SCM. You heard it here first :cool:

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Originally Posted by exallium

Are we only talking Ein's list or Miracles in general? I think the Legends build has a fine matchup vs. Sneak and Show, because of Karakas, Venser, Blasts, Pierce, Needle, etc.

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That is not true.

Game 1 is self-explanatory.

SB games get more complicated: Sneak and Show could bring in: Boseiju, JTMS, Blood Moon, Through the Breach.
Boseiju shuts off all counters, Blood Moon is against less skilled Miracle players and it would shut off Karakas, Through the Breach is harder for CB to lock-down, also work with Boseiju. If all fails, they can still try to jam Jace.

Rather than stressing Ponders, it's more about Snapcaster Mages. Once you stop running 3 Snapcasters, maybe 1 or 2 instead, you will naturally incline to run less than 4 Ponders. It's only natural to go down in Snapcaster count, once you run DTT. Without much testing, it's really Snapcasters vs. DTT, difficult to have Snapcasters and DTT in the same deck.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

That is not true.

Game 1 is self-explanatory.

SB games get more complicated: Sneak and Show could bring in: Boseiju, JTMS, Blood Moon, Through the Breach.
Boseiju shuts off all counters, Blood Moon is against less skilled Miracle players and it would shut off Karakas, Through the Breach is harder for CB to lock-down, also work with Boseiju. If all fails, they can still try to jam Jace.

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I think the only really scary card in that list is Boseiju. The rest can be fairly well played around, especially BM with 8 basics. That being said, they can't cast Sneak Attack with Boseiju and keep it uncounterable, and if they cast Show and Tell, you have plenty of options (like Needle, but list dependant) to keep whatever they stick into play under control.

Yes it's not positive. I never said it was. It's a hard matchup against a blundering, linear, stupid deck. But if you know what angles you have and what your opponent is trying to do, and what cards to look for off your brainstorms and fetches, I don't see how it's insurmountable. I actually find it quite fun. Especially when you crush them. Miracles isn't supposed to be easy, it's supposed to be effective and rewarding of strong play.

Remember kids, you get to see what they put into play with Show and Tell before you name anything with your Needle.

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Originally Posted by klaus

jussayin: Pyroblast is likely to replace SCM. You heard it here first :cool:

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Fixed.

Let's give fights over Ponder a rest for a bit, shall we?