Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EpicLevelCommoner
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/203268
Preliminary draft of a pseudo-walker list I'm contemplating on building. Elspeth 1.0 is there as the main win-con, making dudes, making them jump, and if possible further breaking the symmetry with Deed with her bomb. Barring that, going with a classic Two Towers engine and both Swagtusk and Sacred Rhino to help with the long game stabilization.
A few things Im worried about though:
1. Lots of self-inflicted pain. Without 4 GSZ, I can't rely on tutoring Rhino or Tusk when I need to, which may be a lot here.
2. Dedicating too much room to advantage and selection or removal and sweepers ... and not enough for utility creatures. I like the creature package as is right now ... just unsure on this.
3. Removal/sweeper suite in general.
Any thoughts?
The Two Towers are too susceptible to Wasteland to be reliable. Hence I wouldn't use Primeval Titan to tutor them - it's more efficient to just GSZ for Sigarda. In that regard - I'd cut a land, Eternal Witness no. 2 and Primeval Titan for 2 GSZ & Sigarda. Maybe also cut an Anguished Unmaking for a SDT. Consistency is a desirable thing.
Oh, and -1 Painful Truths, + another Top. Truths is powerful but slow and costly.
I'll post my current list tomorrow. It takes a somewhat different approach, maybe that's worth taking a look at (also, maybe not. I tend to run some unusual cards and make some unusual choices).
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
So...
- the list has 2 Witness to bring back Stronghold if it gets wasted. And after that Stronghold to bring back Witness. So it is not vulnerable to Wasteland unless they have recursion.
- why Tribe Elder over another copy of GSZ? GSZ is literally always better.
- I know I am talking to a brick wall with this. But why Path over Swords? Wrong deck for this choice.
- Playing 1 Tireless Tracker over a Painful Truths would be good to strengthen GSZ.
- Not playing Sigarda is a criminal act.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Junk Planeswalkers huh, well time to dust of the Academy Rector/Doubling Season festival.
Always fun to play, can seriously wreck opponent's. Mainly due to Humility. But on the other hand, there is just so much value in here it is ridiculous. The only real issue with this deck is that cards need cards and nothing really works on its own (barring Sigarda). Current main is pretty streamlined, board is always dynamical. But all-in-all there is still a lot of design space and synergy's not currently present. For example: Spike Weaver/Feeder/Archangel of Thune, which all double up under a Doubling Season. Also optional is the Contamination/Starfield thing, but i find that a bit clunky and requires more dedication. To the very least, i hope the list below will inspire some more deck building.
Main 61 cards
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Academy Rector
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan library
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Humility
1 Doubling Season
2 Lingering Souls
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
7 Basics
7 Fetch
5 Duals
Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Worship
1 Nether Void
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Curse of Death’s Hold
Main: stall board with Veteran/Therapy/Removal/Lingering Souls/whatnot.. until you can sneak in a Humility or Doubling Season depending on the MU/Game state. (sidenote: Humility + Curse of Death's Hold for a creature heavy meta or Doubling Season + Collective Blessing or Primeval Bounty in a more control heavy meta).
Lingering Souls / Combat Walkers steal the game under either Humility or Doubling Season.
The creature package all have their added value under a Doubling Season, but function on their own:
Tireless Tracker doubles its work under a Doubling Season!
Gaddock Teeg is there to stop/delay combo such as Elves/ANT/Sneak (more of less) so you can setup Rector.
Sigarda, well is just a hot smoking chick.
Sylvan Library is there to free up mana, where SDT often needs some extra and this deck is pretty mana hungry in it's early game. Also being able to draw a few extra cards to setup a faster Rector can be needed to prevent losing.
Side: Zealous Persecution is just magnificent when you have a Humility out. The leylines are there for random opening hands. Worship is mainly for burn(ish)/fast decks. Needs testing tho. I suppose Nether Void and Chains of Mephistopheles could be replaced with Eidolon of the Rhetoric and Spirit of the Labyrinth.
Edit: come to think of it, replacing Rector 5 card package for SFM package puts in into a nice direction aswell.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
@Ulysse95
Looks very interesting, but I do think your mana base and win cons are a bit on the unstable side. The removal and general Starfield + Deed plan looks awesome, but the R splash makes the deck look real wobbly. Particularly since you want to cast Lilianas with no DRS and 11 black sources.
Is it reasonable to drop the R? I get that Assemble the Legion and Blood Moon are powerful cards, but it might be worth it to move things to a Taiga + Blood Moon in the side and just have a much more stable mana base game one. For wincons, planeswalkers work, as does Sigarda, or if you want an enchantment option there's always Heliod/Nylea both of which are likely to win any Humility-based standoff. It's a real pity that Karametra, Athreos and Pharika are all so underwhelming. Vinecrasher is a wincon, but you already have a list with a lot of recursion in, so I don't know if you need more resilient threats. Might be worth playing more multidimensional creatures instead, or stuff that doesn't have serious trouble with RIP.
The deck also looks like it could do well with a Recurring Nightmare shell in there, although that might be a bit too deep on the graveyard plan. One of the advantages of running the Enchantment build is that DRS can't exile noncreature enchantments, which makes you significantly more resistant to hate than people might expect. Running a Nightmare loop might remove that advantage.
Thanks, for the note. I will try a bit with no red to see if I miss it or not. But until now I had no really B problem since I run 3 Phyrexian tower too (so it get to 14 B source with 3 of them giving 2B).
Also I will try Nylea over Vinecrasher to see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
You've put much more work into this idea than me but I was thinking of something similar yesterday. Contamination and Bitterblossom are enchantments so I was starting to wonder if there's something to it. I was actually looking through a few of the constellation options. Eidolon of Blossoms could be cool as could Underworld Coinsmith and Brain Maggot but I dropped the idea after thinking it's just a bad version of Enchantress. Your idea with Starfield is intriguing though. I don't agree with 4 color but there could be a solid engine in here.
I don't think contamination would run in a 3 color deck. And I'm not fond of Bitterblossom while running deed...
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
For the Enchantment build - Animate Dead seems like a good fit for the deck, since it lets us do dumb things with Contamination + Starfield, and generally goes well with both.
Animate dead can give a rebound against control to get back a previously managed creature like rector.
It's quite insane with eternal witness.
I tried it but left it on the road for now because it can often stick in hand, needs target (while running less creatures) and fears deathrite shaman.
Perhaps I will give it an extra try while playing Lili again.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emuhell
@Arianrhod: guess it doesnt matter, but you miss the commander 2014 planeswalkers in your list. Maybe someone wants to yield 5/5 demons or something.
Other than that - big thank you for the in-depth analysis of the current state of Nic Fit. I'm tinkering with an updated version of the scapeshift list - cutting whishes, and the wacky PFire engine (mainly because of consistency).
Actually I used to play Freyalise, Llanowar's fury on a humility base and liked it.
+2 to get a llanowar elve is great and the -2 manage some of the worst card: equipment and needle.
Nahiri the lithomancer can be an option in a SFM version.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ulysse95
Thanks, for the note. I will try a bit with no red to see if I miss it or not. But until now I had no really B problem since I run 3 Phyrexian tower too (so it get to 14 B source with 3 of them giving 2B).
The problem with Tower is that it can't make B on your first turn, making it harder to cast Cabal Therapy on turn 1.
Anyways - I said I'd post my own current build, so behold:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Path to Exile
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Painful Truths
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
A lot of beef, a bit less interaction. More beef means less trouble finding a body for Diabolic Intent, Diabolic Intents leads me to skip on SDT (risky as it may be). Skipping on SDT does leave me wanting for other sources of CA, hence Courser & Tracker. On a sidenote - when playing with Diabolic Intents, one needs to tread incredibly carefully. If it resolves, you're in a very good spot. Get it countered and you just fucked yourself. The Pridemage originally was a Sakura-Tribe Elder. Not running AD ment I wanted something targeted to deal with lockpieces game 1. Adding Pridemage means I have 5, thanks to GSZ. The list is a bit more aggressive than the standard list and a bit more high risk, high reward.
I'm going to start thinking of a way to bend this around to a Big Maverick type list. Incorporate some Thalias MB and whatnot. That's something that might actually help with the Storm MU.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I think I've made a breakthrough for BUG. Unlike Junk that color combination is looking for one shot effects which means a lack of top in favor of cantrips. Most notably though, changing away from Top changes the whole CA package. Rather than Bob you want Strix, rather than Courser you want Edric, rather than Tracker you probably want Shardless. Basically a bunch of ETB CA rather than sustained on board (aside from Edric).
Don't have a complete list yet, but here's what I'm thinking
22 Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Others
Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Baleful Strix
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Trygon Predator
1 Shardless Agent
2 The Gitrog Monster
Spells 17
4 Brainstorm
2 Far // Away
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Enchantment 3
3 Pernicious Deed
Feels a little light to me on removal, only 8 removal and 4 discard is a bit low on interaction.
This list is kind of all over the place right now, so it needs some work. I think I want to go deeper on Shardless but that changes a few other card choices. Are there any creatures Shardless Agent is good at cheating out besides Strix?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
The problem with Cascade in NicFit is that you have to many targets with higher cmc, and you can't GSZ into cascade and you can't GSZ from cascade (only X = 0). So i do not see any benefit from Shardless Agent.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
The problem with Cascade in NicFit is that you have to many targets with higher cmc, and you can't GSZ into cascade and you can't GSZ from cascade (only X = 0). So i do not see any benefit from Shardless Agent.
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High cost targets don't really matter as long as you have some low cost ones to hit, it's not like the card suddenly misses when you pass over a 4 drop and hit a 2 drop. GSZ is certainly an issue, but Dryad Arbor is a hit for 0 there (my above list left out the Arbor, only had 19/22 lands listed) and Traverse can supplement so that doesn't happen as often, especially since Traverse is easy to turn on with Strix+Shardless being artifacts.
Or, maybe leaving out Arbor and just going with 4 Traverse would be better.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Glissa the traitor would be a good choice since she's strong with strix and shardless
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Played in an SCG IQ today with the junk fit list in my signature. Ended up 11th out of 28, going 3-2. Tireless Tracker is a HOUSE.
Match 1: Burn, 2-1.
Game one he had a solid start and my vet let him double fireblast me ftw. Games 2 and 3 running Siege Rhinos got there.
Match 2: U/B Tezzerator, 2-1
Game one he turn 2 foundry, turn 3 sword and I got wrecked. Game two I brought in PoP and domed him for 10. Game three was similar.
Match 3: Burn, 1-2
Game one I had a Siege Rhino every turn, games two and three I couldn't get sulfuric vortex off the board and lost.
Match 4: Jeskai Delver, 1-2
Random deck check!!! opponent got a game loss for also having a modern deck in his deck box, which was then followed up my me not drawing p much any lands either game.
Match 5: Pox, 2-0
TIRELESS TRACKER is A BEAST.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Hey guys! Usually I play maverick but my local meta has a lot of fair creature decks with some storm and a little miracles thrown in among the other 1 off random deck you might play. My Maverick list was slowly getting more midrange and midrange so I figured why not play the "ultimate" midrange deck.
I was wondering if you fine folk could take a look at the list I cooked up and help me with the SB.
Creatures
4 veteran explorer
3 deathrite shaman
1 dryad arbor
1 gaddock teeg
1 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
2 tireless tracker
4 siege rhino
1 sigarda host of herons
Instant/Sorceries
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
Enchantment
2 sylvan library
2 pernicious deed
planeswalkers
1 garruk relentless
1 gideon ally of zendikar
1 sorin lord of innistrad
lands
4 windswepth heath
3 verdant catacombs
1 marsh flats
3 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
2 savannah
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 phyrexian tower
Sideboard
3 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
1 swords to plowshares
1 choke
1 pithing needle
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze
2 tormods crypt
4 ???????
The sideboard I am not really sure what I am doing with and put in cards I thought would be good against combo like storm/elves among other things.
Any advice is appreciated.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Step 1: Switch StP for PtE. No need to give your opponent life when you can give them... Nothing. The bigger the thing you kill with it, the more noticable the difference is.
@Brael: Nice way of looking at it. I'm not sure you'd want Shardless over Tracker though. Tracker has a lot of potential. Anything from just replacing itself to drawing multiple cards, growing out of control and finishing the game. Tracker is a must-answer where Shardless is a "Meh" once it has hit the board.
You could also incorporate the Fierce Empath & Diabolic Intent tech. Drop Empath, get a Delve-creature, feed the Empath to Intent to get whatever it is you need (or bait a counter), drop the Delve creature (making the Intent pretty much free).
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Luthiereisfun
Hey guys! Usually I play maverick but my local meta has a lot of fair creature decks with some storm and a little miracles thrown in among the other 1 off random deck you might play. My Maverick list was slowly getting more midrange and midrange so I figured why not play the "ultimate" midrange deck.
I was wondering if you fine folk could take a look at the list I cooked up and help me with the SB.
Creatures
4 veteran explorer
3 deathrite shaman
1 dryad arbor
1 gaddock teeg
1 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
2 tireless tracker
4 siege rhino
1 sigarda host of herons
Instant/Sorceries
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
Enchantment
2 sylvan library
2 pernicious deed
planeswalkers
1 garruk relentless
1 gideon ally of zendikar
1 sorin lord of innistrad
lands
4 windswepth heath
3 verdant catacombs
1 marsh flats
3 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
2 savannah
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 phyrexian tower
Sideboard
3 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
1 swords to plowshares
1 choke
1 pithing needle
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze
2 tormods crypt
4 ???????
The sideboard I am not really sure what I am doing with and put in cards I thought would be good against combo like storm/elves among other things.
Any advice is appreciated.
- I personally like Swords over Path even in Rhino lists, but there are good reasons for both. Test and decide for yourself
- I think a second Phyrexian Tower is a good choice. The card seems not like much if you are new to the deck, but with Explorer and no Therapy it is a difference like night and day. Normal land adds one Mana, Tower adds 4 Mana this turn and 3 for the next turns.
- The rest of the MD seems fine to me.
- In the SB I like Spirit of the Labyrinth over Canonist, unless you have lots of Elves in the Meta. Against Combo what really kills you is their cantripping. Canonist prevents dying, but that is all he does. They can just cantrip until they have their solution. For the 4 "???" I think Thoughtseize are a standard good choice.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
- I personally like Swords over Path even in Rhino lists, but there are good reasons for both. Test and decide for yourself
- I think a second Phyrexian Tower is a good choice. The card seems not like much if you are new to the deck, but with Explorer and no Therapy it is a difference like night and day. Normal land adds one Mana, Tower adds 4 Mana this turn and 3 for the next turns.
- The rest of the MD seems fine to me.
- In the SB I like Spirit of the Labyrinth over Canonist, unless you have lots of Elves in the Meta. Against Combo what really kills you is their cantripping. Canonist prevents dying, but that is all he does. They can just cantrip until they have their solution. For the 4 "???" I think Thoughtseize are a standard good choice.
Vs. Elves! SotL stops both Glimpse of Nature and the BFF engine, so it isn't bad at all. Heck, as a former Elves! pilot I can say Canonist mostly is just a speedbump. After you have a couple of creatures on the board (4+), you're fine with just casting NO for the turn.
Yeah, you've got to love those T1 Explorer, T2 Tower openings.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Hi guys,
I see the thread is still very well alive. I am following from far away, but I saw some discussions about PW, Rhinos and things, and wanted to add my 2 cents.
I play something cryptic, and don't want to disturb the flow of ideas here. Quickly the core is:
4 SDT
4 Vet / 4 Therapies
1 DR Shaman / 2 GSZ (Used to be the opposite before Chalice of the Eldrazis)
1 Eternal Witness
2 Deed
3 Decays / 1 Go for the Throat of the Eldrazis
4 Lingering Souls
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin Lord of Innistrad
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
That's a great shell with 10 slots left to make it strong. On my side it's a Rector package.
I used to play 2 Garruk and 2 sexy Lili for a long time, but Monk_Elementals find her too sexy at the moment.
Sorin is the non WW-Elspeth, and his emblem comes to play very well with Lingering Souls
Nixilis: To me he is the black Jace, he is *the* monster. Ralf said don't underestimate Ultimate abilities. That's all the more true for him.
If you want PWs as finisher, you can add a Grim Nemesis there.
I never liked Rhinos too much, and agree with Arian when he says it is not the gameplan we want to.
Nic Fit is here to tank the game until we fold it up, whichever path we choose. There are Scapeshifts, Attrition-Pod, PWs, and Aggro with Rhinos now.
I just don't like the idea of spending the whole time to deny Delver's aggro and become the Aggro, the turn of table is weird to me.
In a way Lingering Souls offer a better compromise, and can eventually turn into a soft Aggro plan.
I'd love to see Tracker to be as insane as she is for Dominic Pain. Love your list bro, even though I personally would tweak a few slots for Souls and 1 more Top.
But I run too few GSZ to make her shine, especially since without Chalices around, I would play only 1 GSZ. Personal choice to not run green creatures-pack.
She should work well in Pod too.
One thing I find odd: I keep reading here that Miracle is the absolute nightmare.
In my opinion, it is more 60/40 for them. Which means it is playable, difficult on both sides on of the table.
I have been asking to Miracle players around me, and they don't especially like the MU. Independent of the version we run, there's always a bomb coming which they have to be careful of.
Don't give up guys, it's not "desperate", not like Storm/Combo. (that's just Karma I guess)
Kudos to Bobmans, for dusting off Doubling Season. I had tried, poorly I must say a few years ago. I feel that with Oath of Nissa it is worth thinking of it again.
I never spent too much time on it though.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
In a meta with D&T, Miracles and Grixis would NicFit list you recommend?:eyebrow:
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vilnico
I'd love to see Tracker to be as insane as she is for Dominic Pain. Love your list bro, even though I personally would tweak a few slots for Souls and 1 more Top.
But I run too few GSZ to make her shine, especially since without Chalices around, I would play only 1 GSZ. Personal choice to not run green creatures-pack.
She should work well in Pod too.
One thing I find odd: I keep reading here that Miracle is the absolute nightmare.
In my opinion, it is more 60/40 for them. Which means it is playable, difficult on both sides on of the table.
I have been asking to Miracle players around me, and they don't especially like the MU. Independent of the version we run, there's always a bomb coming which they have to be careful of.
Don't give up guys, it's not "desperate", not like Storm/Combo. (that's just Karma I guess)
Miracles is considered a nightmare b/c people just hate, hate, hate the MU. It's always grindy and has the potential to come back from near-death.
One thing I wonder when people cut GSZs - aren't you hurting yourself horribly in terms of consistency? Less GSZ equals less starts with early Veteran Explorers, making it harder to pull in front of your opponent.
@JohnBell: Depends on the breakdown of the field. How much % Miracles, how much % Grixis etc.
