-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Fortunately I've brought stats on Miracles vs other control decks (including control-ish midrange decks):
- vs Grixis Control: 6-9-1
- vs RG Lands: 5-10-4
- vs MUD: 1-3
- vs Shardless Sultai: 8-15-3
- vs Deathblade: 8-6-2
- vs Death and Taxes: 21-18-4
Apparently Miracles is bad against most of these decks, and hardly crippling against the others! The suggestion that Miracles is keeping other control decks down is baseless and false. The biggest factor keeping other control decks down is the $800.00 price tag on Tabernacle.
The only list there that really qualifies is Grixis Control. RG Lands has the percentages it does because nobody metagames against it. Very few people know how to play against it. Rest in Peace and Pithing Needle basically tell Lands to go away but even the lists that play RiP and Needle in the sideboard rarely have more than 3 slots combined for those options. That's because those lists don't see either card as important enough to really invest in given the current meta.
MUD and D&T are both Prison Control and both have issues in the wider meta. They both die to their own inconsistency and MUD has real problems against any list that can reliably control Metalworker even with the prison elements in play.
Shardless BUG isn't a control list. It's too random in play and it folds to things like Blood Moon and is light on counters to prevent those things from happening. It's more an aggro control list on steroids that occasionally has "oops" misfires with Shardless Agent. When I play BUG Control (no Shardless Agent) against Shardless I win about two-thirds of the time because unless he's hitting Ancestral Visions with the agent I just don't care and that list has a lot of other things it can randomly hit instead. Ancestral Visions itself is a poor substitute for Ponder in this meta because it is slow when you suspend it and leaves a lot to be desired in the opening hand.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Just as a side note my BUG Control list beat Dredge, ANT, Burn and Enchantress last night and lost to Miracles *again*. I've played variants of this list since Treasure Cruise was banned and it beats the living crap out of just about everything it faces but loses to Miracles every time I play it.
I don't see how this is a problem, everything has to lose to something. I mean I am not going to cry about my deck running one basic and 33 other lands losing to the deck running 6 main deck Bloodmoons.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I don't see how this is a problem, everything has to lose to something. I mean I am not going to cry about my deck running one basic and 33 other lands losing to the deck running 6 main deck Bloodmoons.
The problem is that Miracles is pervasive in the meta and a very high percentage of the top tables, particularly the draw bracket, will be Miracles. That aggro lists can't beat Miracles is pretty well established at this point. That combo lists can't beat Miracles is pretty well established. I think most of the impression that Miracles suffers to opposing Control is false. I think the only lists that really do well against it that are both Control and commonly played are the Grixis lists and those are a fairly recent phenomenon.
Lands is an outlier matchup. I suspect that if the good Miracles pilots saw it as a priority to beat it wouldn't be hard to achieve that result. It would require a couple of wastelands in the build somewhere alongside RiP, Pithing Needle and the realization that 1 angel token is enough to kill even a good control list that is a step slow to an answer.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
The only list there that really qualifies is Grixis Control.
...Which kick's Miacles' ass!
So exactly which control decks are being held back?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
The problem is that Miracles is pervasive in the meta and a very high percentage of the top tables, particularly the draw bracket, will be Miracles.
Blame the player base for liking it so much and/or believing (as you do) that it is stronger than it really is. When 20% of the field is Miracles, it's no surprise that it makes 3 spots in the top 16! That's actually less than 20%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
That aggro lists can't beat Miracles is pretty well established at this point.
Did you even look at the stats I just posted? I don't thibnk so, because you seem to be saying Miracles is good against everything except Grixis!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Lands is an outlier matchup. I suspect that if the good Miracles pilots saw it as a priority to beat it wouldn't be hard to achieve that result. It would require a couple of wastelands in the build somewhere alongside RiP, Pithing Needle and the realization that 1 angel token is enough to kill even a good control list that is a step slow to an answer.
This is wrong on so many levels.
For Miracles to meta against Lands like you describe, it has to cut back on things it currently runs which allow it to hold its own against the rest of the meta. Also, have you tested this, or did you just make it up? Lands can answer or play around those things - they'll improve the match for Miracles, but not shore it up.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
That aggro lists can't beat Miracles is pretty well established at this point. That combo lists can't beat Miracles is pretty well established. I think most of the impression that Miracles suffers to opposing Control is false.
Fool: "That aggro lists can't beat Miracles is pretty well established at this point:"
Infect: 8-9
Jeskai Delver: 3-4-1
Maverick: 7-2
Sultai Delver: 20-24-4
Temur Delver: 13-17-3
It seems to me that Delver decks (maybe they are not aggro decks, like shardless is not control?) CAN beat miracles.
Fool: "That combo lists can't beat Miracles is pretty well established."
Dredge: 3-4-1
Elves: 18-6-2
Omnitell: 11-5
Reanimator: 7-7-3
Sneak and Show: 5-8-1
Storm: 16-12-10
It seems to me that a lot of combo lists can beat miracle. Only elves is really weak to miracle (or is it that with a 43% win-rate, storm -it's a combo deck, right?- can't beat miracle?).
Fool: "I think most of the impression that Miracles suffers to opposing Control is false."
Death and Taxes: 21-18-4
Deathblade: 8-6-2
Grixis Control: 6-9-1
Jeskai Stoneblade: 5-9-1
RG Lands: 5-10-4
Shardless Sultai: 8-15-3
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
The only list there that really qualifies is Grixis Control.
Sure, if you exclude every list here, saying that it's not control, it's better. It does not prevent miracle to lose to these decks. But can you please describe what you call a control deck? Because if you say that "Shardless BUG isn't a control list", I have no clue about how we discuss other control lists.
Anyway: Overall non-mirror: 256-230-50.
If miracle cannot be beaten by aggro nor combo lists and have an edge against opposing controls (which do not exist), These 47% matches that miracle loses, it's against what?
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
...Which kick's Miacles'
ass!
So exactly which control decks are being held back?
UW non-Miracles Control
BUG Control
Junk
RUG Control (yes, actually existed with Natural Order until Terminus came along, would exist again in a heartbeat if Terminus or SDT was banned)
Various Thopter builds (not as efficient on defense and 4/4 Angels that you can produce with Brainstorm even through a Null Rod are better)
Many, many more, I'm not going to go digging through historical results of just a couple of years ago to make the point that a single mechanic - Miracles - invalidated a wide spectrum of control strategies that were employed in a much more diverse meta.
For all the people saying "power creep, get over it" just realize that if they printed a 20/20 shroud creature with flying who cast for 3 with some easily achievable hoops to jump through the same argument would apply.
There's power creep and then there's flat-out overpowered and format stifling as a result. Miracles has at least 3 cards in it that are in the latter category when combined.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I forget because remembering the fun I had playing it makes me cry, but what was Goblins classified as and how was it's match against Miracles?
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dte
Fool: "That aggro lists can't beat Miracles is pretty well established at this point:"
Infect: 8-9
Jeskai Delver: 3-4-1
Maverick: 7-2
Sultai Delver: 20-24-4
Temur Delver: 13-17-3
It seems to me that Delver decks (maybe they are not aggro decks, like shardless is not control?) CAN beat miracles.
Fool: "That combo lists can't beat Miracles is pretty well established."
Dredge: 3-4-1
Elves: 18-6-2
Omnitell: 11-5
Reanimator: 7-7-3
Sneak and Show: 5-8-1
Storm: 16-12-10
It seems to me that a lot of combo lists can beat miracle. Only elves is really weak to miracle (or is it that with a 43% win-rate, storm -it's a combo deck, right?- can't beat miracle?).
Fool: "I think most of the impression that Miracles suffers to opposing Control is false."
Death and Taxes: 21-18-4
Deathblade: 8-6-2
Grixis Control: 6-9-1
Jeskai Stoneblade: 5-9-1
RG Lands: 5-10-4
Shardless Sultai: 8-15-3
Sure, if you exclude every list here, saying that it's not control, it's better. It does not prevent miracle to lose to these decks. But can you please describe what you call a control deck? Because if you say that "Shardless BUG isn't a control list", I have no clue about how we discuss other control lists.
Anyway: Overall non-mirror: 256-230-50.
If miracle cannot be beaten by aggro nor combo lists and have an edge against opposing controls (which do not exist), These 47% matches that miracle loses, it's against what?
Miracles piloted by a mediocre player is a 40/60 list. A lot of mediocre players pilot Miracles. It has a long learning curve and when you make mistakes you lose games. Obviously the information isn't out there to validate this but we all know it's true.
We also know that the aggro lists you listed are a vanishingly small percentage of what aggro really is. They're all blue shell lists except Maverick, which i would argue is an aggro control list and clearly Maverick, which is the best of the non-blue aggro control lists can't keep up with Miracles.
The combo lists you listed are also blue shell with a couple of exceptions, one being Dredge which is an outlier that people do not plan to face at this point, and the other being Elves which Miracles walks all over.
The Control lists are more blue shell with the exception of Death and Taxes, which Miracles beats more often than not, and RG Lands which again is an outlier that is hard for anybody to beat without having a really dedicated SB plan to achieve that.
Miracles sits so hard on non-blue aggro, combo and control that those lists have mostly been pushed out of the meta or into irrelevance if they're occasionally played. More than any other list in the meta Miracles is responsible for the move to a full blue shell meta. It is the primary predator that pushes non-blue lists out.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I forget because remembering the fun I had playing it makes me cry, but what was Goblins classified as and how was it's match against Miracles?
I believe Goblins has declined over the last 4 years because the ultimate turn has moved from 4 to 3, or maybe verging on 2 at this point. Burn has also declined over that timespan but it shares enough common cards with Modern Burn that it is a reasonable buy for a player coming into Legacy.
I don't think Goblins was pushed out by Terminus. I think it was pushed out gradually by Terminus, Delver of Secrets, a bunch of good blue cantrips, Tarmogoyf (it was a big deal for the blue shell when Goyf was printed if you remember) and a few key counters and removal that were printed from 2009 onwards.
I think Goblins could come back with just a few bans and be very effective. It's gained Rabblemaster to give additional mid-game power options, the problem is the mid-game is a turn earlier than it used to be. I actually think Goblins could be very effective right now in the right meta but it's one of the lists that the blue shell squats on and so it is hard to find that meta.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Obviously the information isn't out there to validate this but we all know it's true.
Ever since that dude with the pony avatar left, you've consistently been the worst poster on these forums and it's because of shit such as this. Stop talking about things you don't know about as if they were fact. New Legacy players are bound to come here and they might not know you're talking out of your ass, whether it be about 'stats' or your numerous misunderstandings about a mechanic and/or the general rules of the game.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Let's examine this more closely. Here are the stats for Miracles matches at major events post TC ban:
Top contender my
ass!
Fortunately I've brought stats on Miracles vs other control decks (including control-ish midrange decks):
- vs Grixis Control: 6-9-1
- vs RG Lands: 5-10-4
- vs MUD: 1-3
- vs Shardless Sultai: 8-15-3
- vs Deathblade: 8-6-2
- vs Death and Taxes: 21-18-4
Apparently Miracles is bad against most of these decks, and hardly crippling against the others! The suggestion that Miracles is keeping other control decks down is baseless and false. The biggest factor keeping other control decks down is the $800.00 price tag on Tabernacle.
I never said that Miracles had the highest win percentage. (that one goes to RG Lands, due to lack of metagaming against it. Plus, broader playerbase --> more bad people playing the deck --> lower overall win percentage compared to a few "experts" piloting the deck.)
My statement still stands:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online
http://tcdecks.net/metagame.php?form...y&fecha=2015-3
http://tcdecks.net/metagame.php?form...y&fecha=2015-4
http://tcdecks.net/metagame.php?form...y&fecha=2015-5
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Miracles piloted by a mediocre player is a 40/60 list. A lot of mediocre players pilot Miracles. It has a long learning curve and when you make mistakes you lose games.
And this only applies to Miracles? As though Miracles results are held back by mediocre pilots, but never propped up by mediocre opponents? :laugh:
What you are doing is dismissing swaths of hard data from tournaments on the grounds that maybe the players on one side of those matches might have been weak. Can't blame you for trying, I guess. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Plus, broader playerbase --> more bad people playing the deck --> lower overall win percentage compared to a few "experts" piloting the deck.)
Where is the evidence than newer/weaker players gravitate to popular decks more so than good players or average players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
These stats don't measure a deck's power. They measure it's prevalence, which is a function of it's power and of it's representation. Your statement was that Miracles has been a top performing deck. It has not. Your data shows only it's successes but not it's failures, which are as much a apart of the decks overall performance.
Let me put it this way: - I play 100 poker tournaments in a year, and win 10. You play 50 and win only eight. I'm obviously a stronger player!
- More kids with IQ between 101 and 115 graduate every year than kids with an IQ over 140. Clearly kids with just-above-average intelligence out perform geniuses!
I hope you see the flaws with this "logic". In (1), we should compare our wins in proportion to our entrants. If we do, we see the whole picture, and realise that you are a stronger player. In (2), we should compare the number of graduates from each group against the number of drop-outs, and we'll see that geniuses actually graduate at higher rates.
The data you site counts only the total number of Miracles top8s, and doesn't consider this in proportion. It therefore does not support your position any more than the bogus arguments I gave above support their bogus (and preposterous) conclusions.
There is a reason in baseball they look at batting average instead of total hits. They want to compare batters' rates of hitting, not total hits over a varying number of attempts! I hope you understand why.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
My little spies tell me there's a "banless" Legacy tournament at GP Chiba this weekend. Not sure what exactly that means, but it should be fun to see the results of it :laugh:
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KobeBryan
I think miracles just need an errata. They shouldn't let you miracles a sorcery card on an opponent's turn.
I was thinking about something like this as well. Lands was brought back into the fold partially by a rules change.
That's definitely a perilous knob to try and tune the format with though. I think that would be a narrow enough change to not ripple outside of miracles but it would also effectively kill the current miracles deck which is a bummer. I don't think that it should be banned out of the format, just weakened.
Show and tell can suck it though.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Where is the evidence than newer/weaker players gravitate to popular decks more so than good players or average players?
It's a matter of Gauss distribution. The more players play a deck, the more likely it becomes that the results are going to average out since there are more average than top players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
These stats don't measure a deck's power. They measure it's prevalence, which is a function of it's power and of it's representation. Your statement was that Miracles has been a top performing deck. It has not. Your data shows only it's successes but not it's failures, which are as much a apart of the decks overall performance.
I get where you coming from, but that was not my point because you're too fixated on your definition of "performace". Call it prelevance, performance, whatever. The top tables are crowded with Miracles and not other control decks and I don't think it's just a matter of herd mentality.
Take the latest Open for example: The field was roughly 10% Miracles on Day 2, yet 7 decks placed in the Top 32 (22%). I take "prevalence" over raw win percentages every day as long as the sample size is too small like the RG Lands player pool.
E.g. when Tom Ross was pretty much the only player who played Infect and roflstomped the SCG Invitational twice in a row, the deck should have a pretty insane win-ratio. But that doesn't mean it's the best deck in the format. Other people who pick up the deck and aren't as experienced as the "deck expert" Tom Ross won't replicate the same performance or win percentage. Otherwise the Top 8s would be choke-full with Infect decks.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Julian23
My little spies tell me there's a "banless" Legacy tournament at GP Chiba this weekend. Not sure what exactly that means, but it should be fun to see the results of it :laugh:
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/gp/en/#event_schedule
Quote:
■Banless Legacy
Entry Fee ¥1,000
Registration 15:30～16:00
Format Legacy, Swiss Tournament
REL Casual
Prizes Winner earns a Foil Mythic Rare Uncut-Sheet of Modern Masters(2015 Edition), 2nd and 3rd place earn Foil Rare Uncut-Sheet of Modern Masters(2015 Edition).
Other prizes awarded to top players in accordance with performance.
Notes
All cards banned in Legacy( Legacy Banned List ) are un-banned except for these cards:
・"Ante" Cards: Amulet of Quoz, Bronze Tablet, Contract from Below, Darkpact, Demonic Attorney, Jeweled Bird, Rebirth, Tempest Efreet, Timmerian Fiends
・"Conspiracy" Cards: Advantageous Proclamation, Backup Plan, Brago's Favor, Double Stroke, Immediate Action, Iterative Analysis, Muzzio's Preparations, Power Play, Secret Summoning, Secrets of Paradise, Sentinel Dispatch, Unexpected Potential, Worldknit
・"Power 9": Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Timetwister, Black Lotus, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Mox Jet, Mox Ruby, Mox Emerald
・"Manual Dexterity", "Subgame"Cards: Chaos Orb, Falling Star, Shahrazad
These cards are still banned.
Wow. Wish I was there. Want to know what I could do with MUD playing Shops, Sol rings, Crypts and Vaults.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
That sounds pretty hilarious. 4x Shops, 4x Sol Ring, 4x Crypt, 4 Mana Vault with 4x Trinisphere should be pretty good. Oh yeah, also 4x Time Vault combo.
But there are also other competitors like Bazaar Dredge or whatever crazy crap you could do with 4x Fastbond or 4xYawgWin.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iamajellydonut
So, 100% MUD?
I do not think so. You have a lot of options with Tinker, Bargain and Will in storm, crazy other brews with Balance (which I really think is only effective when you have 4) and some other toys. I would play MUD though because I think Shops is the most powerful deck in Vintage. But hell, think of this mana base: 4 of Shops, Acadamy, 8 SOL lands, Sol Ring, Vault and 2 Crypt (I would not run 4). Even as a Vintage Shops player, that is a mana base to envy. So much wrong with that it's just not funny. You could drop City for Factory and I would still call that overly stable and totally broken. Fuck I want to play this. So busted.
As a test I like it, I can not see how much real testing you would do with that kind of deck running around though.
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
That sounds pretty hilarious. 4x Shops, 4x Sol Ring, 4x Crypt, 4 Mana Vault with 4x Trinisphere should be pretty good. Oh yeah, also 4x Time Vault combo.
But there are also other competitors like Bazaar Dredge or whatever crazy crap you could do with 4x Fastbond or 4xYawgWin.
Oh yea, I know. Fuck I want to be there so much. If I had of known this was a thing I would have bought tickets. I mean its only like 6 hours away. Wow.
Edit again:
Jar. Tinker. Will. Bargain. Fuck yes. I like broken things.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Yeah, this just seems like a totally reasonable format. Shops is probably the "right" deck, but I'd have a hard time passing on 4 Fastbond, 4 Gush, 4 Scroll.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dte
Fool: "That aggro lists can't beat Miracles is pretty well established at this point:"
Infect: 8-9
Jeskai Delver: 3-4-1
Maverick: 7-2
Sultai Delver: 20-24-4
Temur Delver: 13-17-3
It seems to me that Delver decks (maybe they are not aggro decks, like shardless is not control?) CAN beat miracles.
Delver decks are not aggro decks. They're tempo decks. So yeah, aggro can't beat Miracles. Though to be fair, aggro can't beat much of anything anymore.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I do not think so. You have a lot of options with Tinker, Bargain and Will in storm, crazy other brews with Balance (which I really think is only effective when you have 4) and some other toys.
Oh, no, definitely. My plan would likely be Flash. But I'd be figuratively willing to stake dosh on MUD being the field favorite after you account for the people just bringing whatever they have on-hand.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
Yeah, this just seems like a totally reasonable format. Shops is probably the "right" deck, but I'd have a hard time passing on 4 Fastbond, 4 Gush, 4 Scroll.
...4 Minds Desire....
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Delver decks are not aggro decks. They're tempo decks. So yeah, aggro can't beat Miracles. Though to be fair, aggro can't beat much of anything anymore.
Delver decks are kind of the definition of "aggro-control" decks, and some Pro Players (like Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa) even argue that Legacy Delver decks are the definition of "aggro" and not even "aggro-control":
From http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ayhouse-aggro/ :
Quote:
A third approach is the Aggro with Disruption - those decks do not have any reach, but they have answers, and they can stop the opponent from doing whatever it is they want to do. There are two main forms of disruption - counterspells and discard. Aggro with Discard has fallen a little out of favor since Suicide Black became bad, and now the closest we have to that is Jund, though Jund is not really a pure aggro deck. In the counterspells department, we have a lot more examples - UW humans with Mana Leak is one. The place you’ll find the most Aggro with Disruption is not Standard, though, it’s Legacy - take Caleb’s deck from the last GP:
[deck]4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
2 Chain Lightning
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Predict
4 Stifle
1 Thought Scour[/deck]
This deck might look like aggro-control, but it really isn’t - it’s an aggro deck. “But PV, it has counterspells, card drawing and removal, why isn’t it aggro-control?” - Because you don’t ever use those elements to control the game! You see, terminology is not actually important - you don’t get match points for correctly identifying what a deck is called. If you want to call any deck with creatures and counterspells aggro-control, be my guest - as long as it makes sense to you, it’s fine. What you do get points for, however, is playing your deck correctly, and this deck will not play like an aggro-control deck, it will play like aggro. Every control element that you have you’re using to kill them. You don’t want the game to go any long, you want it finished as soon as possible, because, much like aggro, your cards get a lot worse in the late game. In fact, I’d say Standard Delver itself is already on the verge of being an aggro deck to me, since it shares a lot of those traits (though ultimately I think it has enough control in it that it plays like aggro-control, otherwise nothing would be aggro-control).
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
crazy other brews with Balance (which I really think is only effective when you have 4)
Tell me how and you will get a Golden Ticket. You could unrestrict it in Vintage without much effect, but even considering such a hard-to-build-around-yet-still-infinite-variance-attached-to-it in a world with consistent t1 kills and Shops... yeah, get the Golden Ticket.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dunk
Tell me how and you will get a Golden Ticket. You could unrestrict it in Vintage without much effect, but even considering such a hard-to-build-around-yet-still-infinite-variance-attached-to-it in a world with consistent t1 kills and Shops... yeah, get the Golden Ticket.
We're getting off-topic here, but I was wondering how strong leyline combo would be as a metagame choice in that format, and that kind of deck could do all sorts of nasty stuff with turn 1 balance. On reflection, I'm not sure that anything is going to be able to compete with academy decks that can use 4x Tinker, Memory Jar and Windfall.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Delver decks are not aggro decks. They're tempo decks. So yeah, aggro can't beat Miracles. Though to be fair, aggro can't beat much of anything anymore.
I feel like Merfolk does just fine against Miracles, it just gets wrecked by other aggros in the format right now .
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Julian23
My little spies tell me there's a "banless" Legacy tournament at GP Chiba this weekend. Not sure what exactly that means, but it should be fun to see the results of it :laugh:
Does anyone have a link to those?
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPoJohnson
I feel like Merfolk does just fine against Miracles, it just gets wrecked by other aggros in the format right now .
I'm also not sure why we're conflating "aggro being a tier 1 archetype" and "a healthy format".
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I'm also not sure why we're conflating "aggro being a tier 1 archetype" and "a healthy format".
I guess is depends on how one defines Aggro, but there are decks that are more aggro then combo/control that are strong so aggro should meat the health levels for most players.
Though legacy is a format where you need to be able to interact on more levels then just creature combat, so decks like most delver lists are probably what aggro NEEDS to look like in legacy, and I guess some people do not like that "drop creatures, turn them sideways and nothing else" decks are not strong, because they do not meet the player interaction requirements of Legacy.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sjmcc13
Though legacy is a format where you need to be able to interact on more levels then just creature combat, so decks like most delver lists are probably what aggro NEEDS to look like in legacy, and I guess some people do not like that "drop creatures, turn them sideways and nothing else" decks are not strong, because they do not meet the player interaction requirements of Legacy.
I don't think so. The point of playing aggro was never to beat combo, that should be well understood. The point of playing it was to beat up on blue decks that were geared more towards beating combo and/or each other. The problems with the format have a lot to do with blue decks getting to the point where they could beat aggro AS WELL AS combo. Thus, the part of blue predator is now filled primarily by fringe prison decks like Lands and MUD (and of course DnT, which is widely considered a control deck despite its high creature count).
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
I don't think so. The point of playing aggro was never to beat combo, that should be well understood.
The history of this thread and recent posts disagree with the sound logic of your post. Haven't you read all those complaints about only blue/black being able to meaningfully interact with T1/2 combo decks and the talk about S&T over the last year(s)? If the crowd in question would accept that combo is a bad matchup for (linear) Aggro, we wouldn't have the sheer Volume of discussion, but focus on the following matter:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
The point of playing it was to beat up on blue decks that were geared more towards beating combo and/or each other. The problems with the format have a lot to do with blue decks getting to the point where they could beat aggro AS WELL AS combo.
Since the days of Tarmogoyf/CounterTop this idea is outdated imo. The whole history of blue midrange decks that followed after (Bant Countertop, Bant Aggro, etc.) and printings like SFM and TNN cemented the Position of blue decks being able to battle (linear) Aggro with tools which the later decks were unable to profit from equally and caused a decline of pure aggro since then. Miracles is the first full control deck since the days of Landstill which shaped the metagame around it's mayor presence and gave linear aggro a space to shine they did not have for years.
The discussed idea that the removal of Terminus would give BUG Delver and Shardless a better Miracles matchup (despite Vial.dec having a good Miracles matchup) shows how idiotic the discussion has become, if the goal has ever been to promote non-blue strategies in the first place. I honestly have the impression the whole discussion on Terminus harming non-blue decks is a trojan horse for Delver/blue midrange losing to a 1 mana Wrath they cannot Daze/Pierce properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
Thus, the part of blue predator is now filled primarily by fringe prison decks like Lands and MUD (and of course DnT, which is widely considered a control deck despite its high creature count).
Can we stop using the term "blue" as if it means anything? Your sentence gets really iffy depending if you read "blue" here in the context of Miracles, OmniTell, Storm, Delver or Blade decks for example and especially in regards to the historic circumstances why aggro was able to beat blue decks back in the day (sweepers were too slow, there were no creatures which made aggro/control or blue midrange playable) which are simply no longer the case and most Aggro decks these days have to pickup a tempo subtype to win against blue midrange (see Chalice, Thorn, Wasteland, Thalia, Flickerwisp, Port, Lodestone, Daze, etc.) or feature a combo finish
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Can we stop using the term "blue" as if it means anything? Your sentence gets really iffy depending if you read "blue" here in the context of Miracles, OmniTell, Storm, Delver or Blade decks for example and especially in regards to the historic circumstances why aggro was able to beat blue decks back in the day (sweepers were too slow, there were no creatures which made aggro/control or blue midrange playable) which are simply no longer the case and most Aggro decks these days have to pickup a tempo subtype to win against blue midrange (see Chalice, Thorn, Wasteland, Thalia, Flickerwisp, Port, Lodestone, Daze, etc.) or feature a combo finish
I don't agree with the "blue doesn't mean anything" part, but the rest is good. You can speak of preying on "blue" in the context of decks like D&T, Merfolk, Painter, MUD that prey on the omnipresent cantrip engine and/or running Islands. But macro archetypes like aggro, tempo, midrange, combo etc. attack general weaknesses of other macro archetypes (or try to "go over the top" within theirs, ie. Elves+NicFit to Shardless/Jund, Reanimator/TinFins to Storm/Elves/Tide/S&Derp, BUG to RUG, etc.), not specific colors.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
I don't agree with the "blue doesn't mean anything" part, but the rest is good. You can speak of preying on "blue" in the context of decks like D&T, Merfolk, Painter, MUD that prey on the omnipresent cantrip engine and/or running Islands. But macro archetypes like aggro, tempo, midrange, combo etc. attack general weaknesses of other macro archetypes (or try to "go over the top" within theirs, ie. Elves+NicFit to Shardless/Jund, Reanimator/TinFins to Storm/Elves/Tide/S&Derp, BUG to RUG, etc.), not specific colors.
I consider it a mayor difference if we talk about "blue" (and counterstrategies) in terms of "decks chaining cantrips" or about "running islands" (like Legend Miracles, Meerfolk, Sea Stompy, Aluren, Foodchain, etc.) in a general way and in regards to the role/potency of (linear) aggro in the respective matchups. You can't label Miracles, Blade, Delver and Storm together as "blue decks" in regards to how Vial Goblins fare against "blue decks today". We should seperate strickly here in my opinion and thats all I wanted to highlight in the discussion which is too dumbed down for my taste at times.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
From Philipp Schönegger's Reddit Q&A. The question: "What are your thoughts on the dig through time based control decks like Golddigger?"
Answer (emphases mine):
Quote:
Dig Through Time based Control decks like Golddigger or Grixis have traditionally been simply inferior to Miracles due to one card. And that's Counterbalance. If Miracle didn't have Counterbalance, then there's no way on earth to ever win a match. I mean, a fast Entreat can win a game or two, but you cannot rely on that. When I'm playing against these decks, then all comes down to Counterbalance. Do I have it and manage to resolve it? Well, then this game is going to be very enjoyable (unless they have EE+Ruins) - should I not be able to find and/or resolve Balance in time, then a Dig Through Time Control deck is clearly favored against Miracles.
I mean, they're probably more entertaining to play, though they lack the cost/effect ratio of Balance+Terminus. These two cards just make Miracle work, make it flexible and fast enough to withstand the constant onslaught of a blisteringly fast format like Legacy. If the format was slower, then Dig Through Time (+ a way to deal with balance, like EE+Ruins) would be a better control deck. But this isn't the case. You need to wipe the board as soon as turn 2, which is about the same turn you want your balance-lock to be set up. Maybe I'll write an article on the fundamental turn in Legacy at some point. :)
Basically, while Sensei's Divining Top is the reason Miracles exists, it's not the reason it's (theoretically) oppressive, thus banning SDT is not the right solution to target Miracles specifically, if that's what we need to do to broaden the format. Taking Counterbalance or Terminus (I lean toward the former) would impact the deck enough to open up the field while not having collateral damage. It's having both of these cards in the deck that leads toward "Top abuse."
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rufus
Does anyone have a link to those?
They ran an interesting one a few years back at another Japanese GP where you could choose a non power nine card and have it as a 4 of. Brainstorm was still the most played card, and Mental Misstep was #2. #expected. I'll try to dig up the results link.
Edit: The Internet.
http://amclegacy.sakura.ne.jp/FSL1.html
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
From Philipp Schönegger's Reddit Q&A. The question: "What are your thoughts on the dig through time based control decks like Golddigger?"
Answer (emphases mine):
Basically, while Sensei's Divining Top is the reason Miracles exists, it's not the reason it's (theoretically) oppressive, thus banning SDT is not the right solution to target Miracles specifically, if that's what we need to do to broaden the format. Taking Counterbalance or Terminus (I lean toward the former) would impact the deck enough to open up the field while not having collateral damage. It's having both of these cards in the deck that leads toward "Top abuse."
Except that:
a.) Terminus and Coutnerbalanace would be basically unplayable or only fringe playable without Sensei's Divining Top. Just like Vengevine was unplayable without Survival of the Fittest, but without Vengevine Survival would still be powerful and probably broken down the line with further new printings. Similarly, SDT will always be powerful tool for control decks that have ways to abuse knowledge of the top 3 cards of their library. If you ban Terminus, CounterTop rears its ugly head at some point in the right deck. If you ban Counterbalance, SDT+Terminus is still a huge detriment to aggro decks.
b.) There is no "collateral damage" from banning Top. Or if there is, it's very negligible. The only decks that lose anything (other than Miracles) are the stray Painter deck that plays 1-2 SDT, the stray ANT deck that plays 1-2 SDT, and a random BGx deck that uses 2-3. And all of these decks are eminently playable, and even just as powerful, without a single SDT in their deck.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
Except that:
a.) Terminus would be basically unplayable or only fringe playable without Brainstorm.
fixed this.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
fixed this.
But so would 50%+ of the rest of the format as we know it.
The results of banning Brainstorm would be too unpredictable, make too many sweeping effects, and would generate far too much collateral damage.
The results of banning SDT are very simple to predict: Miracles instantly goes from Tier 1 to Tier 2, and a set of new control decks springs up to take its place, increasing diversity in the format. Additionally, more aggro decks that used to fold to Terminus spring up once again and bring even more diversity to the format.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I don't find Miracles oppressive, but if it was, the solution would clearly be to unban Goblin Recruiter.
