[Deck] 12 Post

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

My question is not about Trickbind over Stifle :) It's "why does this deck need a Stifle effect so much more than any other blue decks out there, to the point that it plays 4x MD while other blue decks play 0" ? Maybe the current reasoning is simply "the deck is so bad against Wasteland it desperately needs to prevent it, even with the possibility of playing Crop in response", or maybe not, anyway that's what I want to know.



What ? How does Trickbind cantrip ?



That's more along my question / point. Yet with 25-26 mana producing lands, plus brainstorms, the probability of getting stranded at 2-3 mana feels really low (to be checked for actual numbers). Also, if the argument is that the deck has quite a bit of situational cards, then that's more of an argument for Ponder for the built-in shuffle effect. It might depend on whether you're playing Expedition Map, if you play it, total shuffle effects might be enough that it's not an issue anymore.



Well, against combo, isn't your goal to have your hate card in your opening hand ? At which point this advantage is nil. So yes, this is an advantage of SDT, but it's more limited than what the sentence may imply. Also this point is completely independant of the deck : we can make 10 sentences saying how SDT is a good card in Legacy, and still, a lot of decks don't play SDT. So obviously that's not reason enough for its inclusion. (the first argument goes in the right direction though)



Well, I know. But I can also recognize I've just picked up playtesting the deck, so it's only natural to ask, and that's what I am doing. I'm more than open to being convinced if the arguments are standing.

---

1. To clarify since we need our lands for mana, having that effect to shut down wasteland can be important not including the other uses that trickbind can have. It's not a necessary effect, but it is a nice effect to have access to. I guess it is something of flavor to each their own.

2. I confused myself between trickbind which has split second and teferi's response which draws 2. So trickbind does not cantrip, I apologize for the confusion. I was thinking it said to draw a card.

3. It is a cheap card selection option that can continuously provide selection without multiple slots or copies necessary. Having access to cards off the top 3 at any stage in the game can be very important, see point 4.

4. Storm and similar style combo decks run discard which means keeping hate in the opening hand can be worse than not having it. If you are running blue you have the option to use brainstorm to hide the hate and then play top to keep it hidden until necessary.

5. I suppose many of these options can be preference and style dependent. I feel like it is reasonable for each person to try every option and figure out what you like for yourself.

6. If I seemed unfriendly, that was not my intent... Welcome to the deck! :)

Thanks for the reply. What I'm getting from this is that Trickbind and Top seems only played for lack of something that would better fit the deck (the arguments I'm hearing are all along the lines of "xxx is a great card because reasons that are valid no matter the deck you play them in"). So I'll consider them somewhat open slots for now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

Thanks for the reply. What I'm getting from this is that Trickbind and Top seems only played for lack of something that would better fit the deck (the arguments I'm hearing are all along the lines of "xxx is a great card because reasons that are valid no matter the deck you play them in"). So I'll consider them somewhat open slots for now.

---

There was once a time where ponder was played back when Treasure Cruise was legal but nothing matches the repeatable power of sensei's divining top. The argument you're making with "xxx is a great card because reasons that are valid no matter the deck you play them in" doesn't even make any sense. That argument applies to just about 90% of cards that see play in the format. "Why does miracles need brainstorm MORE than RUG Delver?" "Why does Shardless BUG need abrupt decay MORE than Maverick?" They are being played because they are good cards in themselves, it doesn't matter how many decks it's good in if it's good in the specific deck you're playing. Sensei's Divining Top happens to be good in this deck, so it will be played in this deck.

The longer the gameplan of the deck, the better Sensei's Divining Top becomes. There's a reason why you see decks like miracles and nic fit play them and not delver or rdw. 12-post falls into the first category (it's a common misconception that 12-post is some turbo ramp belcher deck that falls into the latter). Honestly, there's little else that we can really say. If you're going to ask questions, don't ask them just to validate yourself. In the end, experience is the best teacher and will trump conjecture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 203995014

There was once a time where ponder was played back when Treasure Cruise was legal but nothing matches the repeatable power of sensei's divining top. The argument you're making with "xxx is a great card because reasons that are valid no matter the deck you play them in" doesn't even make any sense. That argument applies to just about 90% of cards that see play in the format. "Why does miracles need brainstorm MORE than RUG Delver?" "Why does Shardless BUG need abrupt decay MORE than Maverick?" They are being played because they are good cards in themselves, it doesn't matter how many decks it's good in if it's good in the specific deck you're playing. Sensei's Divining Top happens to be good in this deck, so it will be played in this deck.

The longer the gameplan of the deck, the better Sensei's Divining Top becomes. There's a reason why you see decks like miracles and nic fit play them and not delver or rdw. 12-post falls into the first category (it's a common misconception that 12-post is some turbo ramp belcher deck that falls into the latter). Honestly, there's little else that we can really say. If you're going to ask questions, don't ask them just to validate yourself. In the end, experience is the best teacher and will trump conjecture.

---

@ParkerLewis - Guy above is on the right track as well as you are thinking. There really isn't much of other cards that cover that job as well as Divining Top. Closest card would probably be Slyvan Library, but that doesn't get used as much because of the color restriction. Trickbind isn't just a wasteland answer, it fights against a lot of other issues 12-post players deal with, the list is quite large. There is plenty of converstation and experience listed in this forum that covers those questions pretty well I would say. Personally, I don't run Trickbind at the moment. I have in the past and enjoyed it. My meta has changed into which they are not needed as they used to be. I have also tried with Top and hated it, but that is purely my experience. I also run a Bant version with Terminus in the mainboard so Top becomes even more essential for that control aspect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

Looking at some lists on tcdecks and I have a few questions :


- Khalni Garden ?
- I sometimes see a single Oracle of Mul Daya (with or without a way to tutor for it). I understand the potential use of the card (esp with SDT), but why as a singleton ? If it's worth playing, don't you want at least two to have a reasonable chance to see it ?

---

If Liliana of the Veil is big in your metagame, Khalni Garden is great. Making a plant to allow Primeval Titan to live is amazing.

The Oracle of Mul Daya is only present in the GSZ builds; so that you have a virtual 4 copies of the card. It's been very hit or miss for me. I feel like 75% of the game is a hit (and leads to victory), 20% of the time it is a 1 turn exploration and dies and 5% of the time it fails miserably, you don't hit lands and then it/you die. Also, I play 28-29 lands in my build to increase the % chance to blind flip.

Took bant post for a spin again after messing around with other decks. Ended up 4-0'ing local weekly.

R1: 2-0 bant deathblade
Game 1: jammed turn 4 prime time expecting it to be dazed, but it resolved and his new Thalia and other creature couldn't race.

Game 2: he never saw white sources and walked 4 creatures into a terminus. That gave me enough time to resolve a prime time and a new Kozilek.

R2: 2-1 storm (ANT)
Game 1: lose because.. well it's game 1 so we basically always lose the first game.

Game 2: Ethersworn Canonist held down the fort and a top deck Gaddock Teeg got there.

Game 3: mulligan to six, keep hand that has tropical island, glimmerpost, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, and other stuff. Scry keeps surgical extraction on top. Opponent doesn't have enough discard to push through three hate pieces, and divining top came through and found me the mana I needed. Floated Flusterstorm on top of deck while I beat down for four damage a turn.

R3: 2-1 predict miracles
Game 1: never really does anything while countering my Show and tells, cavern of souls let's me resolve prime time into Emrakul.

Game 2: I keep an okay hand that has divining top. Opponent force of will's my turn one top, and I don't really do much the rest of the game while I get beaten up by VClique and containment priest. Pretty sure I lost that game on turn one, which is interesting because no one ever counters the top, especially not after keeping a 7 card hand.

Game 3: really intense game. I mulligan a pretty decent hand but had no way to interact with blood moon. 6 card hand included fetches to get basics and Engineered Explosives. EE blows up his blood moon. My life total swings back in forth between 3 angel tokens and glimmer post life gains with prime time triggers. Eventually prime time goes farming, but I get enough lands to exile two angels with new Ulamog which does not resolve. Opponent gets greedy and EOT miracles a second entreat to try and swing for lethal. Flusterstorm saves the day. Green sun into prime time gets me more life and another cloudpost. He also goes farming but his one angel token and snapcaster isn't enough to finish me off. I tutor and cast Emrakul next turn. On my extra turn I swing with Emrakul, and then cast Terminus to clean up his attackers just in case. Re-tutor up Emrakul and that was basically the game.

R4: 2-1 miracle of science (miracles and Omni show love child)
Game 1: we both durdle and set up. His Show and Tell puts in Omniscience and I put in new Kozilek. Unfortunately he grabs Terminus with top and I don't have a six drop to counter it. I scoop once he shows me the ants kill line.

Game 2: he ponders a lot. Brainstorm in response to monastery mentor digs into a Terminus. Next turn miracle Terminus which gets countered. Drop down Gaddock Teeg which I think stopped him from either combo'ing, countering my prime time, or casting Terminus to clean up the board.

Game 3: I mulligan to six and keep a shitty hand with lots of mana issues, but it has Gaddock Teeg and Krosan Grip. Vesuva coping his island lets me dig with brainstorm. Vesuva copying his flooded strand, and then a tropical island found via brainstorm gets me out of my mana issues. Opponent keeps pondering and digging. Critical turn I believe was green sun into Gaddock Teeg, he was going to force it but let's it resolve. End of my turn he tries to send him farming and there's a stack battle of swords -> swan song -> Flusterstorm. I don't have enough mana to pay but I'm pretty okay with getting some cards out of his hand. On my next turn I get him to pitch his Omniscience to force of will in order to counter a prime time. He drops a monastery mentor. The second prime resolves on my following turn. I had eye of ugin in my hand so I grab two cloudposts for pure mana ramp. My life total was high enough he couldn't kill me with non infinite damage from monks. Emrakul wraps up the game.

Overall notes: Winning against storm felt pretty nice for a change. Even though I won against Miracle of science, I still consider it a horrid match up. It's essentially omnishow splashing counter top, some number of Terminii, and mentors in the side.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 203995014

The argument you're making with "xxx is a great card because reasons that are valid no matter the deck you play them in" doesn't even make any sense. That argument applies to just about 90% of cards that see play in the format. "Why does miracles need brainstorm MORE than RUG Delver?" "Why does Shardless BUG need abrupt decay MORE than Maverick?" They are being played because they are good cards in themselves

---

Brainstorm is an extremely good card (usually regarded as the best card in Legacy). Yet not all blue decks ought to run it. As a blue deck MUC could have played BS, yet it didn't while Miracles does. That's because some decks can actually make use out of the cards power while others don't. Hence why any argument that applies equally to all decks is not a valid argument to justify a card's inclusion in a deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 203995014

The longer the gameplan of the deck, the better Sensei's Divining Top becomes. There's a reason why you see decks like miracles and nic fit play them and not delver or rdw. 12-post falls into the first category (it's a common misconception that 12-post is some turbo ramp belcher deck that falls into the latter). Honestly, there's little else that we can really say.

---

There is a misunderstanding here. I merely want to make sure I'm not missing anything before trying things out. I said earlier this was the only possible argument I saw for SDT : basically there are several turns to go through, there's mana the deck doesnt know how to properly use (notice how this definitiely not something that just applies to any random deck), and this explains why Top is the current choice here. If that's a confirmation there's no other hidden benefit / tech (just like I asked for Khalni Garden, and maCHOOga has been kind enough to give me the answer), I'm happy to receive this confirmation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skriger

Trickbind isn't just a wasteland answer, it fights against a lot of other issues 12-post players deal with, the list is quite large. There is plenty of converstation and experience listed in this forum that covers those questions pretty well I would say. Personally, I don't run Trickbind at the moment. I have in the past and enjoyed it. My meta has changed into which they are not needed as they used to be. I have also tried with Top and hated it, but that is purely my experience. I also run a Bant version with Terminus in the mainboard so Top becomes even more essential for that control aspect.

---

I don't doubt there's discussion on the subject. Unfortunately it's impossible to search a 300 page thread. Any search you make on a card will mostly return hundreds of links to people posting decklists... :) Thanks for the feedback though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maCHOOga

If Liliana of the Veil is big in your metagame, Khalni Garden is great. Making a plant to allow Primeval Titan to live is amazing.

---

Ok, that's why :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maCHOOga

The Oracle of Mul Daya is only present in the GSZ builds; so that you have a virtual 4 copies of the card. It's been very hit or miss for me. I feel like 75% of the game is a hit (and leads to victory), 20% of the time it is a 1 turn exploration and dies and 5% of the time it fails miserably, you don't hit lands and then it/you die. Also, I play 28-29 lands in my build to increase the % chance to blind flip.

---

Well, the thing is I definitely saw some as a 1-of in non-GSZ builds, hence my question. But maybe it was just a weird list. thanks for the confirmation.

I don't really see why we're debating what brainstorm is used for in this deck... It's brainstorm. Ignoring all the other reasons to run brainstorm in legacy, specifically for this deck brainstorm can salvage hands in which you are stuck with an Eldrazi Titan in hand. Although there has been debate with the efficiency in which brainstorm performs in the classic U/G version. I have found the four fetches is not enough to pull off "perfect brainstorms," and while I'm aware there are other ways to shuffle your library (e.g. expedition map, crop rotation), you have to bend over backwards to make it work, which usually means you're not playing optimal lines.

Although if you could splash a third color, increase the number of fetches, and get rid of situational land-spell cards (e.g. bojuka bog, glacial chasm), you'll find the mana base to perform more smoothly, and the scenarios in which you are brainstorm locked decrease.

Also I don't understand why you're under the impression trickbind is a x4 staple. Just because there's a list on tcdecks.net running a full playset does not mean it is a requirement. If you don't like the card, don't run it... There is a plethora of builds and variations in this thread, mainly because the core of the deck isn't that large, but also because in my opinion the deck hasn't really been "solved" yet. Since the core of the deck isn't that large, I don't know if it will ever be.

Khalni Garden is mainly for Liliana, and while I've experimented with it as well, it simply isn't worth it. Are you really going to waste one of the two tutors from Primeval Titan's trigger to get such a silly land over a Cloudpost/Glimmerpost/Vesuva/Eye of Ugin? Just accept that you'll only get one trigger off of Primeval Titan in the face of Liliana, and move on with the game. One trigger from Primeval Titan means the game is probably over for the opponent. They probably have Abrupt Decay rotting in their hand anyways, and in that case you've just "turned on" their removal.

Additionally, this deck can be described as a Combo/Control archetype (albeit the combo part involves attacking with creatures). Guess what other deck is somewhat similar? Miracles. What card do they run? Sensei's Divining Top. Why? To trade early game tempo in order to go over the top of the other decks in the format and crush them with card selection. Not that difficult to see why a deck that isn't trying to combo off in turns 1-3, often has excess mana, and desperately needs colorless card selection would want to run Sensei's Divining Top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saab93

I don't really see why we're debating what brainstorm is used for in this deck...

---

No one is debating Bainstorm. It was merely used as an example, independantly of its presence in this deck. If needed, please take the time to read the full sentence and what it was replying to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saab93

Also I don't understand why you're under the impression trickbind is a x4 staple. Just because there's a list on tcdecks.net running a full playset does not mean it is a requirement. If you don't like the card, don't run it... There is a plethora of builds and variations in this thread, mainly because the core of the deck isn't that large, but also because in my opinion the deck hasn't really been "solved" yet. Since the core of the deck isn't that large, I don't know if it will ever be.

---

As I said, I just picked up the deck. If I see a lot of lists with 4x Trickbind on tcdecks, which makes me dubious, it's not suprising I ask about it. Indeed, the fact that I ask specifcally makes it clear I'm skeptical over the card as-is. I also don't recall claiming it was a staple. BTW, a lot of previous answers were quite adamant about the card. The arguments presented did not convince me so it has not made my list though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saab93

Khalni Garden is mainly for Liliana, and while I've experimented with it as well, it simply isn't worth it. Are you really going to waste one of the two tutors from Primeval Titan's trigger to get such a silly land over a Cloudpost/Glimmerpost/Vesuva/Eye of Ugin?

---

If you did experiment with it before reaching the conclusion that it wasn't worth it, then surely you should be understanding of others doing the same. Anyhow, I couldn't figure out its intent so I simply asked about it. That's it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saab93

Additionally, this deck can be described as a Combo/Control archetype (albeit the combo part involves attacking with creatures). Guess what other deck is somewhat similar? Miracles. What card do they run? Sensei's Divining Top. Why? To trade early game tempo in order to go over the top of the other decks in the format and crush them with card selection. Not that difficult to see why a deck that isn't trying to combo off in turns 1-3, often has excess mana, and desperately needs colorless card selection would want to run Sensei's Divining Top.

---

That's basically the point that's already been mentioned since my original question, except specifically using Miracles as an example is... extremely unfortunate, to say the least. Miracles runs Counterbalance and also... Miracle cards. Ignoring that is just... past being wrong and really says a lot. If you're looking for a sensible example, take Imperial Painter.

Went to a local Legacy tournament this weekend. 54 attendees. I was playing my Bant Post version.
Link to decklist: Bant Turbo Post
6 rounds with a cut to top 8. I placed 22nd.

First off, my sideboard was a bit odd. Expedition Map in the SB was a useless spot and wish they were Thought Knot Seer after everything was said and done. Second, I am not, by far, perfect at this deck still after 3 years of playing it. Our local meta has been doing some weird changes. For a while it was a ton of combo and delver. This particular event was 9 Death and Taxes and a bunch of random builds. I don't have super detailed notes on my matches but I will try to recall much as possible.

Match 1 - Eldrazi Aggro - WIN 2-0
Game 1: I'm on the draw. Opening hand mostly fetch lands and a cloudpost and a crop rotation. Mulligan to 6, get a Show and Tell, Primeval Titan, brainstorm and 4 lands one being a fetch. He starts off very strong and gets mimic turn one and turn 2 endless one for 4. I draw into a Divining Top and proceed towards lining up for Prime Time show and tell. Turn 3 draw was Emrakul, SnT him in and he scoops.
Game 2: SB:+2 Krosan Grip, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Ugin, -2 Candelabra
I'm on the draw. Almost exact opening hand; Mulligan. Similar setup; primeval titan, divining top, pithing needle a basic forest followed by other lands. I get out needle on wasteland since he had one on the board. He builds up 3 mimics. I'm still running a bit slow and using top to filter down an Ugin and Ulamog. He gets a TKS on the board and hits me for 16, Im at 4 health. A divining top a Terminus to the top and wipe his board. From that point I regulated out by casting a primeval titan and beat him with it while pulling glimmers and clouds to regulate health to normal.

Match 2 - Mentor Miracles - WIN 2-1
Game 1: Decent opening hand, can't remember what was in it. Ended up Show and Tell Emrakul for the win. Opponent had weak start and wasn't able to pull anything decent. Got a Mentor up but I quickly removed with StP.
Game 2: SB: +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Boseiju, +2 Expedition Map, -1 Terminus, -2 Candelabra, -1 Ugin
Opening hand was a Divining Top, 2 fetchlands, Brainstorm, Cloudpost, StP, Song of the Dryads. I keep. He gets counterbalance up quickly but no top. I draw into more post lands. Use the fetches to clear up bad SDT reveals. Opponent gets rolling with 2 Monastery Mentors, I StP one, which he attempts to Counterbalance showing a land so he forces, then Song of the Dryad the other which resolved. Slowly he builds up monks and then Entreets for 2 on miracle. I terminus but he disrupts and wins the match.
Game 3: SB: No change
On the play, very decent opening hand, Boseiju, Show and Tell, Emrakul and lands to back it. I keep. This went very quickly with an uncounterable Emrakul on turn 3.

Match 3 - Mono White Eldrazi variant - LOSS 1-2
Game 1: Show and Tell with Emrakul and lands to produce. He starts slow with a City of Traitors and gets 2 mimics on the field. I get lands up to 3 and just cast SnT to pull Emrakul, he drops an endbringer. His follow up no lands and still stuck with his one City of Traitor, He attacks with everyone, I block and then take my turn attack and he scoops.
Game 2: SB: +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Ugin, -2 Candelabra
Bad opening hand, mulligan down to 5 cards. Essentially a loss for my build. He plays out very quickly and rolls me with mimics, TKS, and endless one and I had no answers. Card draws were bad no decent answers just lands. He runs me dead.
Game 3: SB: No Change.
Again bad opening hand, mulligan to 6 and its weak but playable. Scry and find a Divining Top so I feel a little more comfortable. He gets chalice running which locked out my brainstorm and crop rotation in hand but top is on the board. He gets Wastelands running and controls the board which wins him the game.

Match 3: Grixis Delver - LOSS 1-2 Streamed: Fire and Dice Twitch
Game 1: On the Draw, Badly i play turn one top even though I knew he was Grixis Delver. Lose the top. He starts getting his tempo going. I'm getting no colored mana and nothing to cast. I finally get Karakas and attempt to StP but gets forced and he cleans me up.
Game 2: SB: +1 Boseiju, +1 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Expedition Map, -2 Candelabra, -2 Song of the Dryad, -1 Unknown
Opening hand strong, Turn one Needle on wasteland. Get Boseiju, show and tell Emrakul which soon he scoops.
Game 3: SB: No Change
Opening hand is bad, Ugin and some lands. Mulligan to 6 keep the hand. Scry shows a needle. Tried chasing out a counter with a map. He Wastelands my Glimmer then Surgicals it. Pick up a second needle, cast one and it gets dazed. I get a second Needle and cast calling wasteland. At this point I am playing risky with no mana coverage, resolves. He starts building up Pyromancer army. I do a bad play and pull Boseiju with map even though I was essentially dead, I should of pulled Glacial Chasm or a Tundra. I also used the map to try to blind out a Terminus which worked! but he forces. Almost an awesome flip play. I tried playing a Show and tell with a Savannah which i thought was a Tundra. Bad play with Expedition Map and not checking my board caused me to lose. Funny to watch chat. They said I hid the Savannah with the cloudpost, which is incorrect, Savannah was on top. Overall bad play led to my loss on that match.

Match 4: Death and Taxes - LOSS
Game 1: I'm on play. Good opener with Show and tell, Already knew the player was DnT from scouting earlier in the day. Quick game cleanup with Emrakul out.
Game 2: SB: +1 StP, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Pithing Needle, -1 Ugin, -1 Cavern of Souls, -1 Brainstorm
Bad hand, Mulligan to 5 and still not great but keep because of 3 fetches and a brainstorm and Top. He quickly gets me lockdown with Ports and beats me with serra avenger.
Game 3: SB: No change
Bad hands again mulligan to 5. He has no lands but Aether Vial fixes that. He gets Stoneforge, Serra Avenger, Mom, and Thalia on the board accompanied by Batterskull. I am able to Terminus to restart the clock but I am down to 12 health. He rebuilds with Thalia, and Stoneforge, attaches batterskull to Thalia to start the beating. Get me 2 health, I desperately need another Terminus, I fetch to 1 and find it and resolve miracle on his turn. I start regulating again with Prime Time and Glimmerpost back to around 11. He StP Prime Time, puts me at 17. He is able to lock me out with great port pulls and beats me down again with Serra Avenger.

Match 5: Omnishow - LOSS 0-2
Game 1: I'm on the draw, he drops blood moon then combos off with release the ants very quickly and It puts it into hold by Ulamog but I take 13 damage. Gets Sneak attack and Grisel to win the game.
Game 2: SB: +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Reclamation Sage, +3 Leyline of Sanctity, +1 Pithing Needle, -2 Candelabra, -2 Ugin, -1 Cavern of Souls, -3 Terminus, -1 Brainstorm
Bad plays led to loss here. He gets Blood Moon again. I have Prime Time, krosan grip in hand. I get a basic forest out and he show and tells, I drop Prime Time, (MISS using krosan grip on my primeval trigger) and I pull my cloudpost. He casts Emrakul, i drop krosan on Omniscience to hopefully slow him down. He takes his second turn, I sac everything but Primeval and the forest. Down to 5, I play a plains, attack trigger primeval and pull karakas and a cloudpost. I am hoping for another krosan grip or Song of the dryad to lock down Blood moon and bounce his Emrakul with Karakas. It doesn't come and I lose the match.

Overall, my sideboard was my problem I felt beside my obvious bad plays. My intention with Maps is running Boseiju in the side against force of will decks which typically is our meta. This time around much less of them. Every sideboard, I wish I had TKS instead, would of felt much better against DnT and Sneak and Show. Also a Swan Song in those spots would of been very nice as well.
I really enjoy the bant version with Terminus and StP. This meta makes it very useful and seems to hold it's ground as long as I don't play badly, haha! Song of the Dryads is still been very strong for me. It is my mainboard way of answering non creatures, Vesuva copy allows for some really tasty treats. People question it, but every time I've resolved one, I end up winning by removing something powerful. My favorite is still getting a Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Comments, suggestions, rants, and praises are always welcomed!

So I looked at some of the new Spoilers. Right off the bat, Trophy Mage. A overall better version of Trinket Mage with the exact same stats. I really like it! She can dig up Crucible of Worlds, Sphere of Resistance, Crawlspace, Cursed Totem, Defence Grid, Ethersworn Canonist, Phyrexian Revoker, just to name a few.
I really feel this might bring back the mage in the deck. My thought would be to replace a pithing needle (if you run them) with one Crucible to help with Wasteland decks. You can also then run a Canonist in the Sideboard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skriger

So I looked at some of the new Spoilers. Right off the bat, Trophy Mage. A overall better version of Trinket Mage with the exact same stats. I really like it! She can dig up Crucible of Worlds, Sphere of Resistance, Crawlspace, Cursed Totem, Defence Grid, Ethersworn Canonist, Phyrexian Revoker, just to name a few.
I really feel this might bring back the mage in the deck. My thought would be to replace a pithing needle (if you run them) with one Crucible to help with Wasteland decks. You can also then run a Canonist in the Sideboard.

---

If only she were that good. :frown: She only finds artifacts with exactly a cmc of 3. So the only thing on your list that she can get is Crucible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skriger

So I looked at some of the new Spoilers. Right off the bat, Trophy Mage. A overall better version of Trinket Mage with the exact same stats. I really like it! She can dig up Crucible of Worlds, Sphere of Resistance, Crawlspace, Cursed Totem, Defence Grid, Ethersworn Canonist, Phyrexian Revoker, just to name a few.
I really feel this might bring back the mage in the deck. My thought would be to replace a pithing needle (if you run them) with one Crucible to help with Wasteland decks. You can also then run a Canonist in the Sideboard.

---

As CptHaddock said, it can only get exactly CMC 3. Could still be playable - when i tried a list with Enlightened Tutor, i wanted to get mostly Crucible, Trinisphere and Ensnaring Bridge. I think with just those 3 cards you have decent options against almost every deck. I'm pretty sure i will try that at some point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CptHaddock

If only she were that good. :frown: She only finds artifacts with exactly a cmc of 3. So the only thing on your list that she can get is Crucible.

---

Whoops! yeah totally didn't read it right. Still has some potential. As for the rest of the set, I don't have high hopes for anything decent.

I started screwing around with the idea of having some Miracle boardwipe with the UG version in the form of Devastation Tide earlier. What I found was that this card used to be a 4-of in some old lists from 2012. I'm now wondering why this card fell out of favor to the point where it never became at the very least considered as an option again. Am I overestimating the potential of this card?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 203995014

I started screwing around with the idea of having some Miracle boardwipe with the UG version in the form of Devastation Tide earlier. What I found was that this card used to be a 4-of in some old lists from 2012. I'm now wondering why this card fell out of favor to the point where it never became at the very least considered as an option again. Am I overestimating the potential of this card?

---

I remember I stopped using it because my needles got bounced along with chalices or whatever. That seemed right at the time, but as we're kinda deep in a metagame where mb needle is not as good, we don't often have nonlands in play that aren't top or candle. It would probably be feasible to play 3 copies or so. Having something to buy sometimes a significant bunch of time can be really nice, not to mention how well it can combat cards of many, many types. As an answer, it casts a wide net

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 203995014

I started screwing around with the idea of having some Miracle boardwipe with the UG version in the form of Devastation Tide earlier. What I found was that this card used to be a 4-of in some old lists from 2012. I'm now wondering why this card fell out of favor to the point where it never became at the very least considered as an option again. Am I overestimating the potential of this card?

---

Well the version i've been running using Terminus 3-ofs. My meta is very creature heavy so it's been working quite well for me. If you meta calls for more non creature removal, I would say test it out! Brainstorm with Top really helps keep things in order for miracle cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 203995014

I started screwing around with the idea of having some Miracle boardwipe with the UG version in the form of Devastation Tide earlier. What I found was that this card used to be a 4-of in some old lists from 2012. I'm now wondering why this card fell out of favor to the point where it never became at the very least considered as an option again. Am I overestimating the potential of this card?

---

Nice find! Could work well in builds without needles, maps and other permanents you usually don't want to bounce. Currently I'm testing it in the "wacky" omni-build with no permanents under 6 CMC except top.
Obviously it's not strong against combo (except in situations like - bouncing after a resolved Empty the Warrens). I also expected it to work better against eldrazi. I lost a game after bouncing his board (2x mimic 1x endless 1x thought-knot) 3 times before losing. He was able to easily recast his threats with eye of ugin and several sol lands, each time getting the best card in my hand with knot - frustrating. On the other hand i had several great plays against other decks which can be difficult at times, like delver, bug, etc. I feel the card has potential or at the very least it's fun to play.
I wasn't able to find the list you mentioned from 2012 - can you drop a reference please? Can you share your current list?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MechTactical

Nice find! Could work well in builds without needles, maps and other permanents you usually don't want to bounce. Currently I'm testing it in the "wacky" omni-build with no permanents under 6 CMC except top.
Obviously it's not strong against combo (except in situations like - bouncing after a resolved Empty the Warrens). I also expected it to work better against eldrazi. I lost a game after bouncing his board (2x mimic 1x endless 1x thought-knot) 3 times before losing. He was able to easily recast his threats with eye of ugin and several sol lands, each time getting the best card in my hand with knot - frustrating. On the other hand i had several great plays against other decks which can be difficult at times, like delver, bug, etc. I feel the card has potential or at the very least it's fun to play.
I wasn't able to find the list you mentioned from 2012 - can you drop a reference please? Can you share your current list?

---

Well I don't think playing no permanents is necessarily the way to go. Candelabras aren't even that bad if you hold off on casting them (a very common situation vs abrupt decay) so bouncing them shouldn't be that big of a deal. Sensei's Divining Top is Sensei's Divining Top (plus bouncing it isn't even that bad, though I can imagine situations having to cast it again would be really invasive or difficult).

I was disappointed with the results against eldrazi too, especially because the main reason I wanted to try and include it was as a way to improve the eldrazi matchup while having applications in many others without having to splash. I was finding that I was having color constraints with a 3 color splash way more often than I was comfortable with. I may try going with some number of Moment's Peace but that card feels too narrow to really be a 4-of.

You can look up Devastation Tide Turbo Eldrazi/12-post and you will see some really early pages of this thread where Rock Lee is playing lists with 4 tides and talking about how good they are.

My list isn't really refined, it's pretty much a standard UG 12-post except with Tides and without needles. Also messing with the idea of going back to 4 Show and Tells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 203995014

Well I don't think playing no permanents is necessarily the way to go. Candelabras aren't even that bad if you hold off on casting them (a very common situation vs abrupt decay) so bouncing them shouldn't be that big of a deal. Sensei's Divining Top is Sensei's Divining Top (plus bouncing it isn't even that bad, though I can imagine situations having to cast it again would be really invasive or difficult).

I was disappointed with the results against eldrazi too, especially because the main reason I wanted to try and include it was as a way to improve the eldrazi matchup while having applications in many others without having to splash. I was finding that I was having color constraints with a 3 color splash way more often than I was comfortable with. I may try going with some number of Moment's Peace but that card feels too narrow to really be a 4-of.

You can look up Devastation Tide Turbo Eldrazi/12-post and you will see some really early pages of this thread where Rock Lee is playing lists with 4 tides and talking about how good they are.

My list isn't really refined, it's pretty much a standard UG 12-post except with Tides and without needles. Also messing with the idea of going back to 4 Show and Tells.

---

This is the reason I like the Bant version for Terminus. Each time a terminus goes off, it's a game changer. Devastating Tide doesn't feel as powerful. If you are running into a lot of non creature permanent issues, then run counterspells or back to more original uses with Perilous Vault or Oblivion Stone for instant speed full board wipe. My alternative is Newlamog recursion. Once he goes off 2 times, they usually scoop since I've blown up their lands and other resources.

What is your biggest concern that you are running into that you feel needs to be dealt with?