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I generally side out Piledrivers against Zoo and some combination of MWM and Lackey against Merfolk to bring in my removal. Usually if I'm on the play I'll leave in more lackeys, and if I'm on the draw, I'll leave in more MWM.Quote:
Originally Posted by lotriderm
I had 2 (maybe wrong) reasons for not boarding Needle game 2:Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
- Since survival and jitte were his only win conditions I guessed he would board Krosan Grip against my possible hate
- I didn't know anything to board out
Game 2 I didn't see any Grips so I boarded them
I casted Needle that turn, because I didn't have a 1-drop. This way I wouldn't have to pay mana in my following turns. He was stuck at two land and I ported him in his upkeep. I had a waste as backup, so he wouldn't have mana to equip the jitte if he would manage to play it. I'm more affraid of an active survival (which makes my port useless) than Jitte (which sucks against manadenial and creature-removal)
Thanks for your insights though.
Relic didn't serve any purpose that day. I'd bring him in against Loam-decks and Dredge. I agree those slots weren't that spectacular. The Pyrokinesis, Chalice, Tuktuk and Pithing Needle where great though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I didn't know UB-Merfolk doesn't play Jitte, but now I do, thanks!:tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by lotriderm
Gempalm isn't that good against Zoo, because you won't have that many goblins in play during the game. And when you do, you are winning. Besides, the Zoo-pilot has effect on the burn-range of Gempalm due to his burn spells.
Pyrokinesis is good against a lot of aggro match-ups, but doesn't deserve a spot in the main deck. Lightning Bolt does.
For instance, Pyrokinesis is bad in control match-ups and Bolt isn't. Bolt cleares the way for Lackey and Pyrokinesis does that with a brutal card-disadvantage (early game trading 2 for 1). In the matchups where I side Pyrokinesis, I would trade 2 for 2 (or sometimes even 3).
I agree Piledrivers aren't that good in the Zoo-matchup, though I still want 1 or 2 maindeck to get them with Matron for the win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talanos
MWM saves the day against Zoo. Everytime I play him against Zoo the opponent sighs. He is such a pain in the butt against them. I would rather side out Siege-Gangs (for being a bit slow) than MWM's.
Furthermore, I'm thinking of removing my Goblin Chieftain from the main-deck. He's the worst goblin in the deck, I think. I'd replace him with a fourth Gempalm Incinerator.
What do you guys think?
Thanks for your kudos.:smile:
I came to the very same conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
He's really nice to have in the mirror, but additional removal will also do it. Plus, in general the monocolored deck is favored in the mirror.
He's also not too good against E-Plague (at least not as a 1-of).
Right now I can't think of more reason that justify him in MD.
Mine has became a 4th Lightning Bolt last week.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
But I also did some other changes I'll test some more before posting here.
Glad I'm not the only one with this idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
If we use a 1 or 2-drop we lower the mana-curve, which I always tried in this deck. I thought of a couple of cards:
- 4th Gempalm Incinerator
- 2nd Skirk Prospector
Or possibly:
- 4th Mogg War Marshall
- 4th Lightning Bolt
- 2nd Sharpshooter
- 23rd Land
- Tuktuk Scrapper
- Suggestions?
I've always been advocating to rn as much removal as possible, but this can also be a question of the metagame. In NL I'd suggest to prepare for aggro and therefore run more removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
Lately my Rishadan Ports started to annoy me. Therefore I was considering to add another land.
2nd Sharpshooter is too much I guess, cause it doesn't help us with our straightforward aggro plan (he's 1/1 for 3 mana and virtually never attacks).
Tuktuk (or artifact hat in general) s not needed in MD against most decks. 4 mana is too much here.
Yeah, I usually leave in 1 piledriver too. Actually, I generally leave in at least 1 of any "core" goblin when siding. I usually feel that if it was good enough to be in the main deck in the first place, it's worth having as a tutor target even if you don't predict it will be helpful in the matchup. If I need to take out more than just 3 drivers, it'll usually be a lackey or two. (Or, until recently, the chieftan. More on that below.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
When I said that I side out MWM, I was referring to the Merfolk matchup actually, not Zoo. Green creatures and the mirror are the main reasons why I keep MWM in the deck in the first place.
I tend not to take out incinerators against Zoo, even if it can sometimes be impacted by their removal. The main reason is lavamancer. That guy is so bad for us that I want to ensure I can reliably remove it. Getting range on the bigger creatures is gravy. Also, incinerating a lynx on your turn is generally pretty reliable.
I agree with the consensus on chieftan as well. I find I'm siding him out almost all the time, and I never tutor for it. And 1 chieftan, as stated, really doesn't do anything against double-plague, which is the real danger.
I agree with Gobo on the 23rd land. I've been running with that recently to good success. You can side it out on the draw, too, if you want. It's far more annoying to be shy your third/fourth land than it is to be forced to find something to do with an extra sixth or seventh. Also helps with getting 2 red more consistently. I think its' better to have 23 lands and 4 ports than 22 and 3, which is what I'd probably do if I didn't have the extra land.
Circling back to boartusk liege, since we're on the topic of lords (of the non-Gobo variety). I know there was discussion a few pages back about how he's not that good against plague, but my one loss at the last tournament was to landstill with double plague down. I mean, are we just supposed to concede against this or blindly assume we're going to win faster? Granted, he had a great opening with force for vial, plow for lackey, and turn 3 standstill, but you can't just bank on your opponent not having answers. I know they can answer liege too, but at least I would have had something to go matron for and at least attempt to recover instead of scooping if I were running a pair of lieges.
I was thinking the same thing about Goblin Chieftain: He's always sided out. And definetly the weakest goblin in the deck.
I replaced his spot with a second Skirk Prospector, which has been working wonders... Another 1-drop is awsome, and it powers up the Skirk Shooter tech (with only 1 skirk, you need to matron for him, usually).
My sideboard has been showing some good results. And as I said in my previous post, those Staxx/Prison decks are back with a lot of strenght, and they're pretty much annoying, but can be easily beaten with a SGC or Sharpshooter.
I don't know about the Double E.Plague topic. It's really rare to see a double plague in play. I don't think Boartusk Liege has space in my sideboard.
This is what I've been using:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Shattering Spree
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Anarchy
1x Lightning Crafter
That single Anarchy might be a little random. That couldn't be further than the truth, but I feel at least a little safe against Enchantress by having one of those in sideboard.
How's it going, Goblin Warchiefs? I'm a first-time poster with some interesting ideas, and wanted to get the opinions of veteran "Mountain-Lackey-Go" players.
I've never been one to take "stock lists" to tournaments, and I have some renown in my play area [metro-Boston] for adding innovative technologies onto existing decks, or building decks from scratch that see tournament success. I've top-8ed two PTQs with such behavior, including making it to the finals of one.
I intro with this not to brag, but to show you that I'm not some random noob who didn't put any though into his arguments.
On to my ideas.
I was pondering the contents of all of the most popular Goblins lists I saw [the black-splash version for Warren Weirding, the monored version that most of you have discussed in the newest few pages of this thread, etc.], and after some admittedly limited testing, I believe my list is beginning to mold itself into something that shores up most, if not all, of Goblins' bad matchups. Instead of taking several months to figure it out on my own, as per my norm, I figured to take the plunge and risk getting laughed at by the veterans. :P
Here's the list I'm testing:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 AEther Vial
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Nameless Inversion
2 Crib Swap
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Mountain
3 Plateau
3 Badlands
SB:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Extirpate
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Perish
2 Warren Weirding
I've reduced some of the aggro in favor of more maindeck removal. Nameless Inversion replaces Bolt because, while I like Bolt better for cheapness and late-game reach, being able to tutor/RL into removal has been very clutch in any creature-heavy MU. Crib Swap is really useful for dealing with pesky Tarmogoyfs and KotRs before [big IF] I have enough Goblins to Gempalm them away. Warren Weirdings step in to combat Emrakul and Progenitus.
Basilisk Collar is boarded in against any aggro/Burn deck, and being able to one-sided Wrath with Sharpshooter is definitely cool. My graveyard hate from the sideboard is obviously MU based - Ravenous Trap after my Dredge opponent Breakthroughs for 0 is a wonderful feeling. Extirpate can nix either Dread Return targets or Vengevines, and the Vengevival deck is quite populer in my area [and, oh yeah, the world]. Enlightened Tutor can get the Collar, my Oh Ring [for Emrakul, Jitte, Survival, other problem permanents], or either piece of combo hate. I'm playing one Canonist and one Pillar because sometimes having one or the other specifically is game-changing depending on the MU, I've found. Perish gives me extra hate against Zoo, which I theorize I'll need since the Sharpshooter/Collar combo is very unreliable against such a removal-heavy opponent.
In a larger tournament where I expect to see people boarding in E.Plagues, I have 2 or 3 Echoing Calms at the ready. Oh Ring can deal with one, but that'll likely not be enough.
I look forward to your reviews and advice! Thanks in advance.
First things first, I must congratulate you on trying to think outside the box and innovate something new and different in an archetype as homogenous as Goblins. I really like your inclusion of Nameless Inversion and Crib Swap MD. Too bad Wizards never printed a Changeling card for Artifact/Enchantment/Graveyard hate. Goblins players the world over would give their eye-teeth for that reliability. I believe you'll find you want at least 1 Warren Weirding MD too, as it can take care of Progenitus and Emrakul. I also like the E Tutor SB that can help you grab Basilisk Collar toolbox pieces. Your O Ring could also be Pithing Needle if you want to be a little bit quicker, and Pillar/Cannonist could be Chalice of the Void for the same speed factor. Best of luck with the list. Many people on this forum would be interested in hearing how it works out for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by They Call Me Flez
They Call Me Flez, nice main deck. Altought I think you should cut one Plateau and add 1 more Rishadan Port. The additional removal seems to be a little underpowered (nameless inversion can only hit creatures), and Crib Swap seems too slow for me. BUT, they can be tutored, which is in fact, really good. I'd like to hear abour your matchups against Zoo and T.E.S.
Your sideboard is a mess, in my opinion. Try to stick to 4 - 6 cards in your sideboard, and make them as three of or four of... Having one of each card means you'll hardly ever draw it (unless they have almost the same effect).
I'd make your sideboard like this:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Perish
3x Tormod's Crypt (or ravenous traps)
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Warren Weirding
Chalice of the Void @1 almost shuts down Burn decks (hmm, Bolts, Chain Lightning, Mogg Fanatic, Grim Lavamancer at least).
Ethersworn Canonist is bad, since goblins often cast one or two goblins per turn. About Extirpate, well, I don't personally like it, but it's, indeed, a very useful card. There's also no need for the second Sharpshooter imo.
If you want to stick the 1x cards. Make your Enlightned Tutor in three or four pieces in your sideboard.
Well, I don't know if I'm right or wrong. But Goblin players shouldn't leave home without Pyrokinesis and Chalice of the Void. About the Sharpshooter with Basilisk, it's fun in theory, but not likely to happen (unless you're playing against merfolks, lol).
I'd love to hear about your progress with this list.
Thanks for the compliments and the input, I completely forgot about the ability of Chalice @ 0 to stop Storm copies when I typed up this list. I'd rather have Oh Ring, personally, as it's another weapon against Emrakul and Engineered Plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
The issue with playing Crib Swap and Warren Weirding next to each other is the brutal anti-synergy; casting Crib Swap at all means Warren Weirding is null and void, as they now have a dinky 1/1 to sac, and it gives them two 1/1s in return! Less than optimal. Of course, this is the worst-case scenario as the token could die first in a multitude of ways, but the point remains.
Vandalize, your candidness is very appreciated! I've yet to play Pyrokinesis, but I'm sure it's wonderful - the issue is where to fit it. I respectfully disagree that my sideboard is a mess - I actually carefully scultped it over the course of several hours of MU analyzation. It's certainly not perfect, but please allow me to explain my theories.
Step 1 - Anti-Dredge tech
In order to dodge Dredge's [and other similar decks'] anti-hate cards, I have a mix of the popular graveyard hate spells. Having one-ofs of each helps me dance around Cabal Therapy, and having a mix of permanents and spells fights Chain of Vapor. Also, I suspect most Dredge players won't suspect me casting Enlightened Tutor grabbing Tormod's Crypt in response to Therapy/Unmask. Additionally, Extirpate is personally one of my favorite hate cards, and is also very good against Vengevival decks.
Step 2 - Toolbox
With two Enlightened Tutors, I effectively have "three" copies of every other one-of in the sideboard, save Sharpshooter [which I already can tutor for]. Running my board like this gives me more outs to more situations, as each card is useful against multiple matchups. Basilisk Collar is a fine spell to combat what little Burn I expect to see, and Oh Ring has many uses. I definitely agree about Chalice of the Void, though - the Pillar and Canonist are going to be replaced by a Chalice and a third Tutor, or possibly two Chalices. Or...maybe a Chalice and a Pithing Needle.
Step 3 - Sealing the deal against Zoo
The two Perishes are present because I expect Zoo to be popular [as always, right?], and it's also pretty useful against Vengevival. I've only played a few matches against two similar-yet-different Zoo builds, and from what I can tell, my maindeck definitely helps but often isn't enough if they play 1st game 1. Perish puts the odds way more in my favor - theoretically, of course. Before I can say for certain, I need to play many more games. The second Sharpshooter comes in because the Sharpshooter/Collar combo is easily disruptable, so having an additional Wrath seems necessary. Again, much more testing is needed to reach a conclusion, but this is my standpoint thus far.
I look forward to sharing the results of my testing, which starts in a few days!
@ They Call Me Flez
First of all: I have always been curious and open to new (some call it "strange") ideas for Goblins - I can tell you; I even played Survival of the Fittest, just because I saw those Goblins being drawn on it and Squee being a Goblin as a "sign".
Anyways,
Your ideboard tech surely has it's arguments. But...I doubt that this flexibility component you added makes this deck really better than it already is.
There are some weaknesses:
1. Being 3colored makes you much more vulnarable to Wastelands. It's rather easy to shut you W sources off, thus important spells like E-Tutor and Crib Swamp become useless
2. Relying of that "tribal" thing makes your opps Goyfs grow even faster. I know this doesn't seem to be much of an issue, but from my experiences with Nameless Inversion (which I introduced here like 6 months ago) "Tribal" makes the difference sometimes.
3. If you played the "standart" Goblin lists, it may be hard to addopt those changes you made. Therefore this deck may ask a lot of you as a player. This changes might only be usefull if they add power to the deck...this however is a topic I like to hear more about after your testing.
Now some constructive comments. As I said: I really like testing crazy things. Here is what I'd try in your list:
* Mirror Entity - I tried it in a lost along woth 10 other Lords, I liked it. STill it's very controllish.
* Frogtosser Banneret instead of Goblin Warchief - since your deck doesn't seem to heavily rely on Haste
* Infiltration Lens - I don't know how you like this one, I never tested it. SInce you are in the middle of the testing phase you might give it a try and let us know how you found it.
* Serenity - another target for E.Tutor.
Thanks for the input! I believe that some of the issues here can be resolved via an argument based on play style. My favorite deck type is midrange; or, I guess in Legacy-speak, aggro-control. I prefer playing decks that don't lose as opposed to decks that win, if that makes sense. I kept the Goblins core frame because of how powerful it is [creatures that supply card advantage are my favorite spells], but exploding out of the gates isn't something I plan to do with any deck except Burn. Goblins is a deck based on attrition and tempo; I've just leaned it over to the "control" side of "aggro-control."Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I absolutely agree that my manabase is weaker against Wasteland, but that's why I play three of each Dual. I'm also running so many fetches to help dodge Wasteland, with the idea being I won't need to fetch up a Badlands or Plateau until I'm going to cast a spell requiring that type of mana. In the maindeck, there are only three black spells and two white spells, so game 1 will rarely be an issue.
I forgot about the Tribal interaction with 'goyfs - thanks for pointing that out! I'll be sure to keep an eye out for that. I plan to keep testing the Tribal spells unless too many huge 'goyfs scare me away, but that's the reasoning behind Crib Swap and Perish in the first place.
I theorize that every deck is difficult to play properly, and I'm always a fan of a challenge. :) As I mentioned before, I never take stock lists to tournaments - it irks me to netdeck, personally. Building a deck from scratch [or adjusting a core list so heavily] gives you a unique understanding of it as a player, so I feel that I just need some more practice to overcome that hurdle.
As for the cards to test:
Mirror Entity = I tried it for a short time, and I'm still on the fence. In certain situations, it's very good. Others, it's terrible. I never want to draw it over the course of a game and I can more often than not kill my opponent before the pumps would be useful, but I don't want to count it out just yet. Maybe a 1-of in the SB to tutor up in creature-heavy removal-light matchups?
Banneret = Great idea! I'll try this guy out and see if I miss the haste-granting. Odds are I will, but this is what tesing is about, yeah? The major issue I foresee with this is that I'll be fetching up Badlands much more often, which would essentially null my previous argument about trying to dodge Wastelands.
Infiltration Lens = I'm definitely going to give this one a shot. I may find that I have enough card advantage with Matron and Ringleader, but I'm excited to see how turn-one Lackey, turn -two play-and-equip goes. Zoo will still kill it, but other creature decks might be frownyface. We'll see.
Serenity = Good idea. I'll try it at a future juncture, if I deem that my current sideboard isn't enough to deal with the meta I expect to face. I'll have a couple at hand, for sure, and if I see any Enchantress players or peeps with Engineered Plague, I'm in the money.
I'm fairly certain Chalice@0 doesn't stop Storm copies. Unless I missed a statement somewhere.
At any rate, let me know how testing goes.
You're right. It doesn't stop storm copies. I think he meant that it keeps down the storm count.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
To be honest, I thought it actually stopped the copies themselves, but after looking it up, I saw how foolish I was! Chalice @ 0 still helps, as does the new addition in place of Canonist; Thorn of Amethyst.
On that same note, does that mean that Pyrostatic Pillar won't Shock my opponent for each Storm copy?
Yeah, it will Shock, but it's not really effective. If they resolve an Ad Nauseam at 15 or more life, they usually manage to win. And T.E.S. can just bounce Pyrostatic Pillar so easily :/Quote:
Originally Posted by They Call Me Flez
Perhaps, the only ways to slow them down (well, we can't stop them without counterbalance, lol) is to resolve a Chalice @1, or getting a Thorn of Amethyst online as soon as possible.
No, it won't shock for storm copies-Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Oracle Text: Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost 3 or less, Pyrostatic Pillar deals 2 damage to that player.
I'm glad people are finally realizing Goblin Chieftain is the weak link in the deck, since I've been calling this since very shortly after the card was printed. Maybe people will realize how nuts Instigator is next.
There's not really a -right- card to run if you want to beat TES. It's more related to the number of hate spots you pack for it. If you really want to beat TES, you're going to need 6-7 spots dedicated to it in board (Mindbreak Trap and Chalice are my recommendations), or pack a few cards with minimal splash hate application, like a combination of Mindbreak Trap and Shattering Spree/Meltdown, the former to keep them from being too out of control too fast, and the latter to punish them for trying to pull off an Ad Nauseum with only two spells by dropping artifacts out.
The theory of running 3-4 anti-combo spots is that basically you're hoping to get lucky. Either you get your hate and it gets you there games 2 and 3, or you win the die roll, drop a Lackey, they maybe mulled to 6 and need a turn or two to set up, and you've got Wastelands galore.
Or you could always just completely ignore TES, take your bad matchups like a champ, and spend those 6-7 spots on loading up to deal with other problems.