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Honestly, I wish they would, as it would probably bring goblins back to the tables. If printing cards that suppress variance in nonblue colors is part of the brainstorm-issue, this one's a non brainer (just like using top, experienced players should be able to stack their decks in an acceptable amount of time)Quote:
Originally Posted by M+1
Aggro decks that used to fold to Terminus will then get to fold to Abrupt Decay and Toxic Deluge and True Name + Jitte/Batterskull and Swords Snapcaster Swords... aka literally everything else in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I can only get so erect.Quote:
Originally Posted by M+1
In my opinion, the only problem legacy has right now is Dig through Time. It's not at the level of Cruise unfairness, but it's slowly warping the format to a point were most of the top tier decks runs it and games do end wen one or more copies are cast.
But they don't. The difference between:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
- a one mana, instant speed, unconditional Hallowed Burial
and
- conditional 1-for-1 removal (Abrupt Decay, Swords), multiple card combos that can die to artifact hate (equipment+X)... is a CHASM.
Different road, same destination; 1 for 1, 1 for 1, draw some cards, pull ahead and win.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
What aggro deck is playing something with a cmc> 3?
What aggro deck is playing Black knight to get past Swords to Plowshares?
They're not even close to conditional removal spells against "aggro" decks.
I drew a match against Esper Deathblade because my 15/2 Piledriver attacking through his Batterskulled-True Name wasn't enough for lethal. Good luck beating that with Wild Nacatl (y)
Except it's not unconditional. The same people who purport this are the same people who say "Delver is a 3/2" and then complain when they can't get him to flip.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
What me bothers most at this point is that OmniTell and Grixis, which are now both DtBs, run a shared core of...Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
4 FoW
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
...despite different finishers/gameplans. This is an awkward and dangerous development I was talking about before. We need to watch this closely. It cannot be that the format steers towards a ~20 Lands/24 blue card core with various kill-conditions. I hope this is just a current abdomination and not a lasting fundament
The Gitaxian-Probe-Fetchland-DTT-engine is probably the most powerful thing you can do it Legacy right now, rivaled only by the Miracles mechanic.
Fully expecting DTT to be banned after GP Lille.
I wouldn't be surprised either. Though depending on the top 8/16, I could also see the banhammer falling on Top. I don't think we need the second action, but the first is almost surely needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Grixis doesn't run GProbe, nor does it run the full twenty of the other cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Most Grixis Control lists run 4 Probe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
This is actually completely false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Brainstorm, Fetch, derp is more powerful than any of this. Brainstorm will outpace every card and only Ponder and Force will make a run at it's overwhelming ubiquity. Keep up the Necro ban strategy and ban every surrounding shitty card while the format degenerates.
I do agree. However, in my opinion, the real hint of this problem lies in all the other decks that have Dig regardless of their capability of "fueling" it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
For example, if we take a look at SCG Worcester, and we do not look at Grixis or Omnitet, it's not unusual to see Miracles, Deathblades and other deck lists with some Digs, regardless of their ability to play it with maximum efficiency.
Edit:
Dig. Also invalidate one of the best strategy for fighting combo and control decks: discard.
Without Dig, non 2 cards combo strategies or control decks had real issues against heavy discard based decks (omnitell) and were forced to take them to account. With Dig this is no longer a problem because discard actually fuels their strategy.
An example:
Last week I was playing TES against Miracles. I had a kill in my hand, so I proceeded to duress my opponent that had X dead cards a force and a dig. He also had SDT in play, 2 untapped islands and 5 cards in the graveyard.
I had two options there:
1: Take Force
2: Take Dig.
Force had to go sice I couldn't play around it, and the chances of him having a blue card on the top 3 were to hig to take a risk. So I left him with Dig that he casted finding the force and the blue card he needed (he had a blue card in the top 3)
Now, this can be bad luck, sure, but the problem lies on my discard that made him able to cast Dig.
Hope I was clear. I don't hate card, but there's no denying that we are moving to a meta were most decks must run Dig or must close the game before the card is castable.
You lose that game against Brainstorm also. He hides Force and draws with top. If the game has gone long enough for the control player to have that many resources you are losing anyway. At least dig is off turn 1, 2 and mostly 3.
I do agree, but brainstorm doesn't allow you to put cards you don't want at the bottom of your deck by its own. Besides, if he had only a blue card in the top 3 that brainstorm would have been dead.
I'm not here to argue whether or not brainstorm has the same power of Dig in this situation. I just wanted to give a scenario where Dig still bypasses your discard spells by doing nothing and actually profits from it where brainstorm dose not.
My bad - I meant Preordain.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I agree with you that this is an ugly trend, and I don't think this is a flavor of the week. I think if nothing is done, this will be the look of Legacy for a long time to come. Dig is just a card that delver, blue midrange control, miracles, and omnitell can throw in their decks with almost zero downside, and it automatically ensures that they have an upper hand in any game that isn't over in the first 4 turns and that they are able to find silver bullets to break a board stall and also have the raw card advantage to take the upper hand. When you then BUILD around the card, you get an incredible "card advantage engine in a can" that is extremely hard to hate out and then you basically get to pick your win conditions of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
One thing that frustrates me - when the best comparable thing black can due is cast Hymn to RANDOMLY take 2 cards from your hand (and is also a TERRIBLE mid-late game top deck), and also simultaneously fuel Dig, you know there is a problem. For the same mana investment blue gets to SELECT 2 cards 7 cards deep in their deck and also have the upside of it being an incredible top deck any time turn 4 and beyond. Oh and they get to do it at instant speed, which might not seem like a big deal but in game it really is.
This general core, even with tweaks, is incredibly potent, and is ALL over MTGO, and paper is catching on more and more week by week. I've seen this same general core run in tempo, midrange, and control decks, and it basically ensures that in all stages of the game, you're going to have solid game. I think this is the best thing you can be doing in legacy right now. I'm interested to see if it remains in the format.
Goddamnit no my High Tide deck is going to get weaker. Please stop this guys. On a side note at least Dig isn't a 4-of in every list, because it really doesn' cost 2 mana. But yeah, Dig is pretty busted. One way to fight it is obviously more gy hate, RIP being the premier card here.
Decks don't run all those cards, though. Omnitell does, because it's a two card combo and can afford to run twenty four card filters/draw spells. No other deck runs that many cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by eays
Also, none those cards aren't play-style defining. If all the decks with blue run (most of) those cards to accomplish different goasl; and if we continue to see roughly 30% blueless decks, I don't see how format diversity is in any danger.
I play Lands, and I assure you midtrange and tempo decks are not favoured in the long game. Against combo decks, midrange, tempo, and control are supposed to be favoued in a longer game! What matches are you referring to?Quote:
Originally Posted by easy
My philosophy is I'd rather add to the format than take anything away. If you want to nerf Miracles then Goblin Recruiter makes Miracles his bitch but doesn't make the deck obsolete. of course, it strengthens the deck against other blue decks in general but that's a desired consequence too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
Goblins usually have an excellent blue matchup. Terminus is just a wrath on roids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
edit 1:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
edit 2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Right in your face! 10th Place at StarCityGames.com Premier IQ on 5/17/2015
Actually, playstyle defining is exactly the term I'd use to refer to the blue core, or cantrip cartel(+DTT) at least. You can play whatever strategy you wish, but the style in which that is accomplished is monotone and stale. The format has tons of other interesting engines that would lend a very different feel to decks with the same strategy, but none can reliably compete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
ie. Elves, Storm => Similar strategy, different style
RUG, Miracles => Different strategy, similar style
Terminus is not the biggest issue in the world for Goblins. Thanks to the Goblins going back into your deck you just Matron for a Ringleader and your back off to the races. That's why you held your Matrons against Miracles, it was you spare magazine so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
*Yawn*. Miracles isn't even that good, stop complaining and put some Extirpate and Choke in your SB. Sidenote: Goblins completely crushes Miracles.
Omnitell is worse than sneak/show. It's flavor of the month.
Summary: Git gud
Seldomly has there been so little truth in one post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Playing Sneak Show is fine if you enjoy it. As a competitive player, OmniTell or even more specific Dig Through Time is where it's at.
I don't even know why I'm replying to this, but now I already hit the button and feel committed: It's nice that Goblins has a slightly favorable matchup against Miracles. It doesn't help the deck though, that it itself is the one being crushed by the rest of the metagame. Unless we see some insane new printings or bannings, the age of Goblins is over.
Except that Terminus is far more than a 1 for 1. It's a sweeper. It generates card advantage and leads to blow-outs vs. aggro. That's kind of the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Absorbing a Swords to Plowshares or Abrupt Decay on a single dude is at most 1-for-1 trade that nets both players comletely even on card advantage. That's perfectly fair for the deck casting the Swords or the Decay. Aggro decks should be able to win in the face of 1-for-1 removal.
It's a 1 mana *sweeper* that can get rid of as many dudes as you have in play, that can be cast at instant speed, that is much harder for aggro to combat.
Except it is NOT a 1 mana sweeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
The only point Terminus costs 1 mana is if it is your draw for your turn, every other point it required you to jump through some hoops to cast it for cheap, and those hoops are adding to the cost of actually casting Terminus.
Sure I can drop top (next turn) spin top see terminus put it on top draw with Top on my opponents turn, but that is 3 mana and 2 cards to cast Terminus, not 1 mana.
Pretty much every scenario that involves miracling a terminus (or any Miracles card to be fair) involves the investment of mana to set up the trigger, and using it as instant speed requires at least 1 mana investment just to get the trigger. The difference here is you can pay the costs of setup over a couple turns.
Nononono. Did you really just go there? "Jump Through Hoops"? This is laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
And the extra mana you spend on Topping is not really just an added cost for the Miracle spell - you would have spent your spare mana topping anyway. Miracling after a Top activation is simply an incidental benefit, similar to young Pyromancer generating creatures for spells you would have cast anyway, or Tarmogoyf for growing after you put cards in your graveyard that you otherwise would have put anyway.
The combination of Sensei's Divining Top, Ponder, Brainstorm, and Jace all make Miracles ridiculously easy to cast for their Miracle cost. That is the entire point of the SDT ban idea : if we ban the most *reliable* way to set up Miracle spells, the deck will no longer be Tier 1.
Decks DO run all of those cards though. as you've been told several times now. The flex spot being the preordain which get swapped for some other low cost blue spell that facilitates the decks win condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Lands is the ONE deck that can now keep up with dig decks in a grinder and that's if your lucky enough to not get your key spells forced early on or your gy nuked. Lands typically only loses when it gets tempo out early on. ..no deck can keep up with the raw card advantage if they can stall to the long game except miracles.
you seem to think these decks are all different but to me differing ways of winning with the same engine is extremely stale.
When a grixis control deck and a mono blue combo deck are running the same 24 of ~40 nonland cards, something's gotta give right?
I don't even know how I'm supposed to continue this conversation, when "1 for 1, 1 for 1, pull ahead on cards + win" obviously described the game plan of other non-miracles decks, like Deathblade or Delver variants, aka things aggro also can't beat. I even said "different road, same destination."Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
As for the other things you wrote...
Terminus is 1 for X, where X's value is determined by how you play the game. Have you ever wondered how Death and Taxes beats Miracles?
Aggro decks in standard may be able to beat 1 for 1 removal, but this is legacy son.
Again, assuming Miracles ceases to exists, how is a pure Aggro deck still supposed to beat any creature-based Midrange Control deck? Merfolk is probably the closet "aggro" deck in in legacy. Even with access to TNN, islandwalk, FoW and the ability to make absolutely huge fatties, they still struggle against these decks, so how is a pure aggro deck supposed to win? You won't have the disruptive elements of Maverick or Death and Taxes, nor the things that define Merfolk, nor the insane card advantage and tutoring abilities of Goblins, nor the speed and uninteractivity of burn, so again I ask you, how is an aggro deck supposed to win in legacy anymore? These decks (with the exception of DnT) are all solidly Tier 2+, what deck are you proposing that is better than all of the above?
Except that Miracles pulls ahead by actually generating card advantage via Counterbalance and Terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
The "1 for 1, pull ahead on cards + win" plan actually only works when, you know, you're generating real card advantage.
Refresher course on card advantage: Counterbalance trigger counters a Goblin Lackey. Even on CA. Counterbalance trigger counters a Goblin Matron after that +1 CA for Miracles player.
Or: Terminus is cast and bottoms a Goblin Lackey, a Goblin Warchief, and a Goblin Piledriver. +2 CA for Miracles player And so on.
Abrupt Decay hitting a Goblin Lackey generates exactly ZERO card advantage. And where is the draw spell from the BUG Delver player to actually generate CA and "Get ahead"? They don't play it. Those Abrupt Decay decks are pure tempo decks that fight on the same axis as the aggro decks and thus are not as hard to face as a control deck creating real, hard card advantage.
The way they always have - with undercosted beats, reach and/or disruption. Remove Terminus from the format and aggro is once again more viable. It's not 1-for-1 removal that aggro is struggling against, it's the presence of Miracles and its cheap methods of generating card advantage against every deck in the format.Quote:
As for the other things you wrote...
Terminus is 1 for X, where X's value is determined by how you play the game. Have you ever wondered how Death and Taxes beats Miracles?
Aggro decks in standard may be able to beat 1 for 1 removal, but this is legacy son.
Again, assuming Miracles ceases to exists, how is a pure Aggro deck still supposed to beat any creature-based Midrange Control deck? Merfolk is probably the closet "aggro" deck in in legacy. Even with access to TNN, islandwalk, FoW and the ability to make absolutely huge fatties, they still struggle against these decks, so how is a pure aggro deck supposed to win? You won't have the disruptive elements of Maverick or Death and Taxes, nor the things that define Merfolk, nor the insane card advantage and tutoring abilities of a deck like Goblins, nor the speed and uninteractivity of burn, so again I ask you, how is an aggro deck supposed to win in legacy anymore?
Howmuch digging did you do to find the exception?. Lists from Worcester (4th & 16th) run zero preordain. One list runs only three DTT, the other only runs a singleton Ponder. You should know this - you're the one who said we need to "watch this closely". The expression " in your face" is rude a bit arrogant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
There was no digging required as the list was discussed in the Grixis thread which made me aware of the similarities between running 4 Therapy + 4 Pyromancer in Grixis or 4 S&T + 4 Omniscience in OmniTell both surounded by the same 24-card-package. We need to watch this development to estimate if outside action is required for Legacy. Maybe 4 SFM, 1 Skull, 1 Jitte, 4 TNN is the next kill-package which gets paired with those 24 cards in question? It's a disturbing and linear development far worse than people already complained about in regards to 4 Ponder + 4 Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
The douchy expression was picked due to you managing to be bold and clearly false three times within a page of postings. It needed only 1 link to prove it. You can now ponder about your sentence that "no other deck runs that many cantrips" if we already have two DtBs doing exactly this and more are likely to follow (see above)
No we don't. We have one DTB which runs those, and another which runs fewer except for one isolated incident (where it made tenth place).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
You don't think we potentially facing a trend here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
One instance does not a trend make. I think it's a bit alarmist to talk about the format steering towards a ~20 lands/24 blue card core on the basis a single deck plus one other deck that did it once; especially considering it had an unexceptional finish and successful lists since have not followed suit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I think you are seeing problems that don't exist. Maybe you are looking too hard?
If you think the only difference between Omnitell and Grixis is their win-cons, likely you are habitually misplaying against at least one of those decks!Quote:
Originally Posted by eays
Those "core" spells are not actually the heart of the deck. They are not business cards. Except for FOW (and the occasional BS interaction with discard), they have nothing to do with how your deck interacts with your opponent - aka how the deck actually plays. All those cards do is consistently allow you access to the cards which make your deck do what your deck actually does.
Why? I think all this shows is how negligibly an ubiquitous cantrip package damages format diversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I really cannot believe people are ok with the fact that every deck could play all the same 20 cards. I cannot believe even more that they would call this a diverse format. Aren't you getting tired of seeing your opponents and yourself cast brainstorm ponder force of will over and over everytime you walk into a tournament ? Probably i am crazy but i just can't conceive such a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimHead