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The new legends rule definitely makes Thalia better, but only in that super rare occasion you described. Multiple Krenko gets better any time you have a haste lord out. Matron and ringleader will make it easy to chain multiple Krenko activations together in one turn. And I think the clock Krenko puts on is significantly faster and less mana intensive than SGC as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Give it a go and let us know how it turns out.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I personally found that the 2nd one is 'win more', but ymmv.
Perhaps it is WinMore, but maybe Krenko's just better now. I think they need to be compared, though its difficult to sort their influence on the game out. SGC gives you 4 goblins, but it also allows you to spend bodies and mana to either kill your opponents creatures or kill their life points. Krenko just gives you exponential goblins. So Krenko wins the game while SGC gives you better board position.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
Cost: SCG is 5, Krenko is 4. In a world with abrupt decay and DRS it is much more difficult to connect with lackey or tick a vial all the way up. Krenkos cost makes it much easier to play than SGC.
Board state: SGC has a bigger immediate impact by bringing more bodies to the party faster, and by using burn to kill opposing creatures. Krenko however allows you to make so many tokens that your opponents creatures won't really matter anymore, and if you have a haste enabler Krenko becomes better than SGC for building your board.
Direct damage: SGC has it, Krenko doesn't. But does it matter? What x/2 creatures out there are so devastating that we need to rely on SGC over gempalm/stingscourger? And how often have you used SGC to burn out an opponent, and would exponential Krenko tokens be just as effective at winning those games anyway?
SGC seems strictly better than Krenko in only 3 scenarios I can think of. The first is T2 when you connect with lackey. This is the setup for our most likely t3 kill with Piledriver. The second scenario is when your opponent is at 4 or less life, because SGC can just end the game there. And the third scenario is when you're locked behind ensnaring bridge, elephant grass, et al. But playing with sharpshooter and prospector with Krenko essentially gives you the same direct damage outs anyway.
I dunno. Your thoughts?
I enjoy playing Krenko and all, but I think we can't afford not to play SGC.
Adding to the reasons already stated, it makes sense to have at least one in the deck along with sharpshooter and prospector since it puts much less of a strain on your tutoring package when you need to win outside of combat via direct damage. As an example, if you need to win through Moat or something similar in effect, it's much easier to tutor out a single Siege-Gang Commander then it is to tutor for both Sharpshooter and Prospector.
I am agreeing with the "Keep SGC" group here. Damage that you can send to the face is very powerful. Damage that you can send at a Deathrite or Gof is also useful. The other thing about SGC is his "Reload" ability. With Miracles enjoying sending our creatures to the bottom of our libraries or Jitte taking out our forces the 4 for 1 that SGC gives is important. Also while talking about Jitte, there is another reason to keep SGC.
I can see the appeal of more Krenko's but if we are going to explore that path, I think that is best done in a WInsertagor build for the help that Mox and WIn give to the deck. I think in the normal deck, its risk does not offer a high enough level of reward to merit cutting staples from the deck.
First of all, you brought up some very convincing arguments. However, I think you are focusing too much on Krenko's up-sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Here are some "downside" arguments (in-game situations):
* you put Krenko into play (instead of SGC) and you opponent has an removal spell immediately - i.e. before you get to tap activate Krenko. SGC would at least have left you with 3 tokens there
* you need to chump-block a Jitte-equipped creature. SGC does that better than Krenko. (Well, admittedly you can argue now that SGC is dead as soon as your opponent manages to put 2 counter on Jitte)
* other way round: you can attack for lethal damage...if only your opponent didn't have that pesky Jitte (or any other untapped Lifelink-creature). With SGC you can go all-in and use 2 mana to sacrifice the blocked creature to cancel the "whenever this creatures deals damage"-triggered ability. WIth Krenko you might have to wait 1 or 2 turns to get the same effect. But honestkly, 1-2 Turns are a lot in a format as fast as legacy.
* Krenko doesn't enable Turn 3 Kills as easily as SGC does
* your opponent attacks. You tap Vial to bring in SGC and chumpblock 2 of their creatures. Then you alpha-strike him on your next turn. Krenko doesn't do that. Remember how often we profit from such surprise-attacks ... SGC screws with their combat math really hard. Even if you DON'T have SGC in your hand, ticking up Vial at 5 can be a good bluff to keep you opp at bay.
I'm not entirely sure myself if the one or the other is better. However, I have a more practical approach to this issue: "Never change a winning team". As long as I'm unsure about Krenko vs. SGC and as long as SGC keeps performing well I see no reson to replace him. I'm not saying that SGC is strictly better than Krenko (that's debatable), but on the other hand, why should I cut a card that has already proven it's value? I mean we are probably talking about changing the decks win-% by 0,1% to 0,5% anyways. Sooo running the one or the other doesn't matter that much until someone brings up some REALLY good arguments for or against the one or the other. Keep in mind that neither creature is needed to win games, in the past tournament I even thought about cutting SGC entirely in favor of maxing out the creatures that do the job most of the time, like MWM and Piledriver (even Stingscourger) - simply because I didn't draw SGC too often lately.
//EDIT:
So far i have collected 381 recorded gamesin my analysis. I will present the results as soon as I have 400+ records. This might give provide another argument for either SGC or Krenko, or both. We'll see...
SCG is VERY expensive:
- (vial) The differece between 4 and 5 mana is huge because when you have vial @4 you need to thick it up at 5 meaning that it will be useless for the rest of the game. Vial really has to stay @4 for you to be able to chain ringleaders properly.
- Otherwise you can hardcast SGC if you are lucky to have enough mana for it. This mean that you are tapping out and you cannot use the sac ability untill your next turn. Next turn you can activate it one or twice whereas krenko would have DOUBLED you gobblos (if you had an haste lord you would have 4 times as many gobbos instead. If the haste lord was a chieftain you would have won the game in this very moment).
- SCG ability is mana intensive and once you have it on the board you need to invest a big amount of your resources to shoot goblins . Krenko instead does everything by himself, you have it on the board and he wins you the game while you are porting/wasting your opponent or playing more gobbos.
-krenko is yet another reason to play many chieftains will which are awsome.
-Krenko does' t care about your opponent board state. A tarmogoyf will prevent SCG and his gobbos to attack. Krenko will provide you infinite blockes and attackers for the win
-krenko (-> chieftain) is yet another reason to finally drop piledriver and make your MWM even more awsome.
grim lavamancer, pyroclasm and rough//thumble will kill SCG but krenko will survive and you will have a new army in few turns. And seriously I haven't seen moat or elephant grass in ages, ensnaring bridge is dealt by tuktuk scrapper/TSH or sharpshooter.
One of the big pros in SCG was that he was better at fighting equipments. However, he is not. They are both good and bad from time to time in this regard.
Ok, if we are going to go down the path of talking about cutting SG, can we first have a shot at finding a way around Terminus. I think having two Krenko in the same turn is great, but if you lose one to the Legendary rule and then all your tokens to Brainstorm... Well you know what not to do game two I guess.
Also the point on Vial being used to drop SG is wasteful is a good one. But maybe it is my conservative nature but I really really don't feel comfortable dropping SGC.
I disagree with these 2 statements. they are both good against batterskull: SCG will prevent lifelink, krenko will let you attack for 10+ their life total. Against jitte is hard in either way but 3 thoughness is huge here. SGC will be too slow to prevent the first 2 counters from jitte at which point SCG is a dead gobbo. Krenko instead is faster because it costs one mana less and it can survive one turn more (3 thoughness). In this time window I found myself being able to make enough goblins with krenko to be able to actually race jitte. Here getting a haste lord in play is crucial. It is not a piece of cake but it is doableQuote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
EDIT: @Dice_Box: miracles is a good MU anyway. we win it playing krenko and we win it playing SGC
I recently found my Goblins deck i was missing for some years!!!!
Question: Is this remotely competitive without Rishadan Ports? Because, to be honest... Ports are not getting any cheaper and it's too narrow of a card to be investing in, just to play it in Goblins...
Yes, absolutely. Being successful with Goblins does not depend on whether or not you have Rishadan Ports available. I'd suggest you read THIS to get a good feeling of what makes Goblins successful nowadays.Quote:
Originally Posted by claudio.r
Once they start accruing counters on the Jitte the game is almost certainly lost for us. SGC prevents the accrual of counters. Krenko does not. That is a HUGE difference between the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
This discussion really hinges on the times when one would have got the job done and the other would not have. I agree with you that it doesn't matter which one you had in the games where either would have won you the game. For example, most of the 'with a haste lord in play' scenarios floated about here would have been wins with either .
For me the key differences are:
1. SGC counts as a 'removal spell' in deck composition (I like to have 8-9 MD)
2. SGC stops equipment triggers
3. Krenko lives through a Pyroclasm/Rough, which decimates the rest of our board (however, Krenko is really bad by himself)
4. SGC is better off a T1 Lackey
5. Krenko can be saved with Karakas
That's roughly the order of importance I have for those relevant differences.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Your pro-krenko arguements seem to assume that a hastelord will be in play as well.... This has the following implications:Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
a. If I have a Warchief in play, then my SGC will only cost 4 mana, so I can hit it on curve
b. Running multiples of Goblin Chieftain necessarily comes at an opportunity cost of having to cut cheaper goblins. So counterintuitively your deck becomes slower and less consistent. Goblins already has 'too many' 3 and 4 drops with Warchief, Matron and Ringleader. Loading up with even more of them makes the deck even more clunky.
c. With more RR spells the mana is more constrained and Port becomes a worse card
I'm at a loss for words here......Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
What I said about SGC/krenko and Jitte is:
-if jitte gets counters too fast you are dead anyway,
-if jitte gets counters too late it doesn t matter, SGC will prevent jitte from getting counters whereas krenko will build a huge army and you will win anyway
-if jitte will gets counters in the mid-game the fact that krenko comes down 1 turn earlier (on average) AND will survive 1 extra attack with jitte (3 thoughnes). At this point krenko will likely have had the chance to impact the game more than SGC.
SGC is flexible and ok-good at many things but not amazing in anything. krenko is amazing at creating board presence and can win the game by himself. SCG is much more mana intensive and covers roles that other goblins in the deck already do. We have matrons for tutoring up those goblins if we are in need. The deck is already ridicously mana hungry so why not lower the curve, make your vials better and adding an unique feature to the deck?
I decided to change my ThaliaGoblins to mono-red instead, is that still okay?
you tell us :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I've been having success with mono R lately. I'm also enjoying playing 2 md Pyrokinesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I had 2 tournaments last week. The first one decided not to play goblins, and won 3-0-1 with a UWR control deck from Shimi. It rocked. It won me the spot to play the tournament from yesterday, which I decided to honor with the little green man.
Used my traditional monored instigator build
(-1 Bolt, +1 Tarfire, which was irrelevant, and 3-3 split Waste-Port, which I liked)) and SB of 4 LotV, 2 CotV, 2 Thorn, 1 Shooter, 1 Tuktuk, 2 Kinesis, 3 Blood Moon.
I guess that mostly because of Confederations Cup finals, we had a small attendance of 18 players.
Round 1 - Punishing Jund. 2-1
g1 - He gets Punishing/Grove online by T2 on the play.
g2 - Lackey hand with removal for Deathrite, into SGC, into T2 scoop from him.
g3 - He seizes, taking Lackey from Vial, 2 lands, Lackey, Bolt, Matron, Warchief. I draw Blood Moon, and play Vial, and he promptly discards Moon and Bolt with Tourach. He is, however, short on lands, and is left with only 2 Bayou after a Waste. He cast Shaman, I hit with a Chieftain. He play a Goyf and passes, I vial Warchief, and he Bolts it. My lucky draw Ringleader after Vial went to 4 (had only SCG on hand), draws me Sting and Piledriver, which along with the land I drew, and SGC fro vial, kill him trough his Jitte.
Round 2 - Black Maverick.
Game 1 - I end up with 8 lands into play, and his 5/5 knight eats me. A turn before I die I draw Matron, that brings Ringleader, that reveals 2 lands, Vial and Warchief. Not even close to enough.
Game 2 - He wastes 3 Caverns of Souls, and Abrupts a Vial, then proceeds to Knight me out of the game. Dispite that I had 2 Mountains, and Blood Moon would have turned the tide on a 4-5 turn window should I have drawn it. 2 Plagues later he's @4, I have bolt, but a Shaman starts beating me with Jitte, and the windown to burn him out never happened (had Vial @2 in case he removed some of his counters to pump Shaman, with Stingscourger, then drew a 2nd bolt, but couldn't make it).
Round 3 - TES
Game 1 - I know what he's playing. I'm on the play, and mull. He keeps. I mull again, then again, keeping Mountaing, Cavern, Lackey and Matron. He Probes, therapies, and cast Ad Nauseam T2 without landdrop and manafloating. He goes to 1, and can only manage to Grapeshot my dude, then me for 7. I draw a lackey 2 turns later and kill him =D
Game 2 - I Waste, then play land, then Thorn. He has Chain of Vapor, the AdNs me.
Game 3 - I start mulliganing again, where he keeps, I joke about going straight to 5, because the more I mull, the better my hand gets, so I draw the top 5 cards of my library, and put the 6th aside without looking, and say: keep. He laughs, and I start with Leyline, Mountain, Lackey, CotV@0, and passes, and see what my 6th card was. It was a Wasteland, which destroys his 1st land, while I drop SGC, then something else. On my 4th turn he was at 11, and I could deal only 9 attacking. A friend says after my opponent passes : "If you draw a land you kill him right?". I draw my card face down, attack, he goes to 2, then reveal the Caverns that I drew. Love being lucky.
Round 4 -Bug
Game 1 - He FoW my T1 Lackey on the play, but Vial sticks. I do get empty handed - Hymn while I had 2 cards in hand, Tarfire and Bolt, was fun - but a Ringleader saved my ass.
Game 2 - T2 Plague for him. sweet.
Game 3 - I lead with Lackey, he have removal, I get Wasted twice and lose easily.
Round 5 - Agroo Loam
Game 1 - His T4 he Devastating Dreams for 3, leaving me with 1 land, then I lose.
Game 2 - I lead with a fast Lackey hand, and he looses.
Game 3 - He plays T2 Crusher, T3 Dark Confidant. He had Mountain, Mox and Badlands, and missed his landdrop. I Wast Badlands, attack with Instigator (from a Vial), which he blocks with Confidant, and I have Port for his Mountain. He's locked out of lands by his own Crusher. I win.
Top 8 - Bug
Game 1 - a T2 Hymn takes Matron and Ringleader... Vial allows me to curve, and being agressive here wins e the game with a greater thread density.
Game 2 - I keep a lousy 6, and he deals with 2 lackeys and a Vial. I end the game with 1 Miountain.
Game 3 - I don't get to 3 mana, and am enable to cast Moon... that sucked.
Well, thats it. I really don't think my meta is good for goblins anymore (played against 4 decks with Plague and a combo). Maybe I'll stick with my friends deck or play combo myself. Don't think the traditional list would have done any better. Maybe something to deal with Plagues would...
Blood Moon would have been awesome if I could resolve it any game, but thats life...
I agree. However, I think that adding Chieftains to the deck is RAISING the mana curve, not lowering it. Since you're typically cutting 2CC goblins to fit in extra lords.Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
Damn scat, them's the breaks. Sounds like your losses were very unfortunate and your opponents had nutter butter hands, but that's magic. I've found that against plague, wear/tear works as good as k-grip 80-90% of the time, since the only decks that have counters in those (BUG, Esper which is now Deathblade) usually are siding most of their counters out g2. That meta seems like blood moon is a solid choice though. And if you're gonna stick to monored, more chieftains in the board would be better. I've actually considered this in my splash build cause chieftain is a lot more value than a one time spell that's not in our color.
Could you post the list? I wasn't able to find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I put together a winstigator list, essentially Cedric Phillips' Rakdos build from 9/2012, but making it mono-red as I want to abuse my meta with Blood Moon :tongue:
I've got Pyrokinesis main in place of Warren Weirding, but I don't think that's the way to go; I'd like the removal to get
Lackey or Instigator through for damage on T2 or T3, but I'm unlikely to have enough targets for Pyrokinesis to get full value that early.
Is Tarfire good enough for this (while still having some value if drawn later) or should I look to Lightning Bolt?