[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You guys are aware that running the heavy green board, 2 green lands and basic(s) is kinda absurd now AFTER we cut Gemstone Mines? :)

That sideboard and gameplan (Decay vs D&T ... Was horrible with 12 lands and even with 14 postboard 1BG against Thalia/Wasteland is a bitch. Mother of Runes on top of that) requires the rollback to 5 Fetches/2 U.Sea/2 Volcanic/4 Gemstone imo considering that, depending on the Swamps return in place of the 7th fetch, you have 4 iffy lands for your starting grip to contain. I doubt this is acceptable. As D&T is cooling down atm and people began to cut down stifles and Wastelands for the Treasure Cruises, I'm not convinced a second green land is required. I can see the beauty of Bayou providing a combo-color unlike Tropical Island, but I have not made up my mind which one I would prefer in the end. I will test 2 U.Sea/2. Volcanic/1 Bayou/1 Tropical MB with 4 Decay in the Sideboard over the weekend and see how it goes.

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Now that I'm thinking of it, I could just go back to Basic Swamp and play Bayou over Tropical in the sideboard since Tropical isn't really needed. I disagree on the absurdity FWIW, the match-ups in which green is used Wasteland isn't prevalent.

For reference:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

I feel attracted to Volcanic + Bayou providing all 4 colors, allowing you to cantrip into discard/Swarm casting those disruption spells while being able to cast ALL your Rituals/RoF without colorblock.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I feel attracted to Volcanic + Bayou providing all 4 colors, allowing you to cantrip into discard/Swarm casting those disruption spells while being able to cast ALL your Rituals/RoF without colorblock.

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I agree, I just don't know if I want to flop the numbers on Swarms/Needles. It's a metagame call. I really like the list I posted above.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I feel attracted to Volcanic + Bayou providing all 4 colors, allowing you to cantrip into discard/Swarm casting those disruption spells while being able to cast ALL your Rituals/RoF without colorblock.

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Isn't it a pretty big deal that Volcanic + Bayou can't cast Decay though? I have never played 4c, 13+1 and with an only fetch base, so I wouldn't know for sure.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Isn't it a pretty big deal that Volcanic + Bayou can't cast Decay though? I have never played 4c, 13+1 and with an only fetch base, so I wouldn't know for sure.

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Well, among other opinions one I'd like to know (apart from yours Lem of course)!
a) Bahamut, which current manabase are you currently running in your TES build?
b) What do you think about those latests developed ManaBase builds? for example for me that Byant manabase some posts above is nonsense.

I really fear not having Gemstone in my TES build... and I really don't mind the context of the colors TES has OR the context of the metagame, for me having polivalent lands is the one of the main matters in any TES build, and sure for me even U.Sea or V.Island are not polivalent lands, I prefer not talking about Bayou, basics or Tropical, not even as a 13th land...

I remember your latest build which consists in 4I.T. 3B.Wish plus EtW main not sure about 3 Discard or Silence, I think full discard. and 13 lands long time ago...

For me is simple:
If running Xantids, Gemstone is a must if you run 12 or 13 lands
if running A.D. you can consider play 13 Lands 8 fetches 3 U.Sea 2 Volcanic. and Trpical from side.
I prefer anyway 12 lands main full of I.T. and Trpical in side - still 7 Protection plus full of Decay.

@Peli

The oddity about Tropical is that it adds nothing to your combo which leaves you in an awkward spot if you fetch for it just to cast Xantid against High Tide or S&T, which isn't quite the case with Bayou. If this fact outweights the issue of not being able to cast cantrip

Soo after many struggles of losing games due to not finding a tutor. I am finally switching from ANT to TES. Is there any updated info I should know?

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Originally Posted by culby218

Soo after many struggles of losing games due to not finding a tutor. I am finally switching from ANT to TES. Is there any updated info I should know?

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"Updated" in terms of new testing results for Bayou vs Tropical since the last posts or about stuff/switches we discussed within the last 6 or so pages and you want Feedback for?

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

Well, among other opinions one I'd like to know (apart from yours Lem of course)!
a) Bahamut, which current manabase are you currently running in your TES build?
b) What do you think about those latests developed ManaBase builds? for example for me that Byant manabase some posts above is nonsense.

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I run a pretty old school list with 4 Duress 3 Silence and I'm still playing 2 AdN. I think the above build looks very strong. it's not the first time people have ran 3c TES with a fetch base. I wouldn't play the basic Swamp or 4 Wish 3 Tutor though.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

"Updated" in terms of new testing results for Bayou vs Tropical since the last posts or about stuff/switches we discussed within the last 6 or so pages and you want Feedback for?

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I am interested in the results of the testing. I have read alot of the updates about the switches, but I didn't see any results whether the Bayou move was a success or failure. Is there anyone who is running the list @ Worcester?

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Originally Posted by culby218

I am interested in the results of the testing. I have read alot of the updates about the switches, but I didn't see any results whether the Bayou move was a success or failure. Is there anyone who is running the list @ Worcester?

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I had no time to test Bayou vs. Tropical enough to dare dropping a line on the topic (blame Sarah and my two projects @ work atm :P). Maybe one of the other regulars in the thread had the chance to test those and help you out (Thinking of Bryant and Max).

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I run a pretty old school list with 4 Duress 3 Silence and I'm still playing 2 AdN. I think the above build looks very strong. it's not the first time people have ran 3c TES with a fetch base. I wouldn't play the basic Swamp or 4 Wish 3 Tutor though.

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Sounds like a mid-2013 throwback :P

What does your field look like to be able to still run Silence and no Therapies to support EtW?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I had no time to test Bayou vs. Tropical enough to dare dropping a line on the topic (blame Sarah and my two projects @ work atm :P). Maybe one of the other regulars in the thread had the chance to test those and help you out (Thinking of Bryant and Max).

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My deck has pieces in the mail getting signed. I haven't had time, but I'm 100% on Bayou over Tropical.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Sounds like a mid-2013 throwback :P

What does your field look like to be able to still run Silence and no Therapies to support EtW?

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I feel like the fields I play in are just extremely random. I'd say there's an above average amount of (storm) combo, and probably a below average amount of decks like D&T that run hatebears. There's also much more tempo than Miracles. I have lost tournaments to getting in that one situation where you have to guess your Therapy, and if that opponent is playing random cards in a random metagame, that just really really sucks.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I feel like the fields I play in are just extremely random. I'd say there's an above average amount of (storm) combo, and probably a below average amount of decks like D&T that run hatebears. There's also much more tempo than Miracles. I have lost tournaments to getting in that one situation where you have to guess your Therapy, and if that opponent is playing random cards in a random metagame, that just really really sucks.

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D&T is not my point in regards to hatebears as I mentioned in Nov '13 which made me starting to test all-discard, but the combination of Hatebears with counters/discard like in UWR Delver, Deathblade, UW Stoneblade, UWB Esperblade and via splash, even in Shardless BUG. Against every combination of discard+counter or counter+hatebear, Silences are plain bad and I was curious as I have not seen the trend of dual-angle-disruption reverse. I still like my black Ancestral Recall :)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

D&T is not my point in regards to hatebears as I mentioned in Nov '13 which made me starting to test all-discard, but the combination of Hatebears with counters/discard like in UWR Delver, Deathblade, UW Stoneblade, UWB Esperblade and via splash, even in Shardless BUG. Against every combination of discard+counter or counter+hatebear, Silences are plain bad and I was curious as I have not seen the trend of dual-angle-disruption reverse. I still like my black Ancestral Recall :)

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I should make clear that I don't systematically test TES or keep good track of the metagame over here. I just occasionally attend tournaments in a bunch of different places in the Netherlands. I can say that, although something like UWR Delver with Cannonist scares the hell out of me, I can't remember the last time I met anything like that. Actually, I played against something that boarded in Meddling Mages (but it wasn't quite tempo), but I think he named Tendrils with it...

Most people seem to play UGR Delver here, and although Therapy is useful in that matchup to improve the EtW plan, I think Silence is more important. I also very much like having Silence to improve my combo and Ichorid matchups, since I'll most likely meet at least one of those in any given event. If I were to go to some Legacy GP, I think I'd play Therapy over Silence too.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Bayou talk.

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I picked up TES a couple nights ago and ran it through a daily, running the newer configs, 13 land main, Bayou in the side. I choose to forgo Swamp and a couple fetches for 3 Gemstone Mines, the idea being that with 3 I'm less likely to draw multiples in control matches, but if I have to fetch the Island I could at least fire off anything I wanted after the cantrip. I also just enjoy having a lot of lands that aren't stifle-able and in control matchups I like having a lot of IMS from lands since Rite of Flame can't quite compete with Cabal Ritual in lategame mana generation (barring some luck/Infernal Tutors). I was initially drawn away from Swamp because its miserable to open with, and pretty much the worst land in a non-wasteland matchup. During the daily, though, I ran into a Delver list which found room for wasteland in it's cruise shell and pretty much lost a game because I had no Basic Swamp, though. Sure showed me, I guess. 12 lands was the standard in TES for a while, so I guess if the 13th and sb 14th land can't fire off cantrips, its likely not the end of the world because those hands postboard or post-13th land config wouldnt have had a blue source anyway, they'd have the Tutor/Ponder/Mox you'd otherwise have in that slot, and the latter is as much a mulligan as it is a blue source anyway. Something like this is probably just fine:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest/Gemstone Mine (adjust to taste and control/stifle density)
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

1 Bayou (sb, never really cared that it wasn't a blue source as stated above, it's also nice to just have more black sources against Daze/Control decks).

The only other point I'd want to bring up is how awkward the current sb feels. Using this as an example:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bayou
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre

While this list can wallop the Griselbrand/Counterbalance DTBs, it feels lackluster in other matchups. In the list I ran this weekend, I split 2 Duress, 1 Thoughtseize and 4 Therapy in the main, just because with no Chain/Seize in the board, Duress is abysmal in DnT/Elves or Burn and I'm just not that big a fan of Abrupt Decay (pretty sure you just fold to Ruric Thar/Eidolon, considering how painful it'd be to Wish for Snare, though you can Decay the latter). Against control, I'm also considering boarding out 1 discard to make room for Decay/Needles and also so that I can actually Wish for protection. I don't know if this inconvenient options for boarding will actually catch up to the deck in the form of losing matches, but I wonder if something like 3-color with 3 Needles+3 Pyroblast wouldn't be better, if nothing else, because it conserves 3 slots in the sb.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I should make clear that I don't systematically test TES or keep good track of the metagame over here. I just occasionally attend tournaments in a bunch of different places in the Netherlands. I can say that, although something like UWR Delver with Cannonist scares the hell out of me, I can't remember the last time I met anything like that. Actually, I played against something that boarded in Meddling Mages (but it wasn't quite tempo), but I think he named Tendrils with it...

Most people seem to play UGR Delver here, and although Therapy is useful in that matchup to improve the EtW plan, I think Silence is more important. I also very much like having Silence to improve my combo and Ichorid matchups, since I'll most likely meet at least one of those in any given event. If I were to go to some Legacy GP, I think I'd play Therapy over Silence too.

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Systematic tests devour hours, which is the reason, I can not afford to do these because of every switch made.

Deathblade gave me headaches during BOM 8. T1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Meddling Mage, turn 3 Snapcaster + Thoughtseize all with FoW backup is close to unbeatable for storm. Even UWR Delver was tough because of Flusterstorm, Canonist and Meddling Mage postboard but not as disgusting as the trinity of discard, counter and hatebears.


Edit:

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

The only other point I'd want to bring up is how awkward the current sb feels. Using this as an example:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bayou
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre

While this list can wallop the Griselbrand/Counterbalance DTBs, it feels lackluster in other matchups. In the list I ran this weekend, I split 2 Duress, 1 Thoughtseize and 4 Therapy in the main, just because with no Chain/Seize in the board, Duress is abysmal in DnT/Elves or Burn and I'm just not that big a fan of Abrupt Decay (pretty sure you just fold to Ruric Thar/Eidolon, considering how painful it'd be to Wish for Snare, though you can Decay the latter). Against control, I'm also considering boarding out 1 discard to make room for Decay/Needles and also so that I can actually Wish for protection. I don't know if this inconvenient options for boarding will actually catch up to the deck in the form of losing matches, but I wonder if something like 3-color with 3 Needles+3 Pyroblast wouldn't be better, if nothing else, because it conserves 3 slots in the sb.

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Yeah, Duress is bad against D&T, that's why I remove my 2 MB Duress for the SB Land and Thoughtseize as I still have Massacre to sweep the board. Ruric is a bitch to handle anyways if it comes down before you can combo and I can't see us boarding CoV just for speculation of having it in our Hand if he enters the field. I rather try to discard Natrual Order in this matchup and race the pointy eared ambush. In terms of burn you can speculate for Pyrostaric Pillar coming from their SB and remove parts of the discard for Decays and the Infernal. I'm not sure CoV is needed atm :/

Recently just started playing this deck and I was wondering of the third Abrupt Decay is really necessary in the sideboard, I feel like a chain of vapor or Grapeshot is a better choice to play.

When you are going to sideboard in the land, do you want to increase the land count or hit a fetch land?

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Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree

Recently just started playing this deck and I was wondering of the third Abrupt Decay is really necessary in the sideboard, I feel like a chain of vapor or Grapeshot is a better choice to play.

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If in your meta has a lot of hate that involves the like of Thalia, Canonist, Teeg, Cage, Leyine of Sanctity and other permanent hates that has 4cc or greater, sure thing it is great to see that extra vapor in the SB (Grapeshot in the case of creatures).

The main reason why AD is there is because of the unbridled attendance of counterbalance users.


@Howishotgun
Bring in the Bayou together with the ADs or Xantids. The current configuration of TES doesn't carry any rainbow lands anymore.