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I just had an idea...
Tireless Tracker + Arcbound Ravager. Turns each land you draw into +2 power on the board. +4 for fetchlands and Veteran Explorer triggers. Gets pretty big, pretty fast. Add Disciple of the Vault for extra bonus points. Perhaps some shenanigans with Ulvenwald Mysteries? Meren/Karador for value, Fangren Marauder for funsies? Too bad Summoning Station costs 7 mana.
Awesome or cute? Worth investigating..?
Ulvenwald Mysteries is another incredibly strong card. I think it's probably not quite good enough for older formats, though, because of the priority placed on exile removal (and we're already natively strong vs decks that don't have exile removal). When you have a Ravager out and you're going to turn, sure, it's great -- but you need to be prepared to use the card fairly, as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I don't think that Disciple is where you'd want to be with this, but Ravager is at least a decent consideration. The main issue with it is our number of artifact creatures (and artifacts in general), because, again, you'd want to use it fairly as well some games. Well, "fairly" is a strong word where Ravager is concerned. I think that BUG is a likely home for this, since you have Baleful Strix and Trinket Mage -> Hangarback Walker to help feed this game plan.
Moving this to this page so that it doesn't get as quickly lost in the hustle and bustle of the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Maybe this is a nice idea for the BUG version of the deck then. Anyone want to give a crack at conjuring up a list. I'm kinda Clue-less on building BUG Fit lists.
Fangren Marauder also seems funny as fuck. Good luck to your opponent as far as killing you is concerned. With a Tracker out, normal land draws turn into +5 life, fetchlands are +9. Turns Sakura-Tribe Elder and Veteran Explorer into nice walls too.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by echelon
It wouldn't let me capitalize that lol post for comedic effect :( Stupid forum software.
Anyway.
Glissa is obviously a natural inclusion here. Darksteel Citadel might be worth looking into, which could potentially let you splash in Thought-Knots for value, with minimal other inclusions? Or even just run Ancient Tombs to come out of the gates faster. With Fangren, you'd have the life gain to offset running a couple of Tombs.
Tezz AoB might be worth looking into here. I don't think that this deck is comboish enough to want Seeker.
The biggest cockblock is likely going to be finding something good to put the +1/+1 counters on to from Ravager. Are there any artifact creatures in BUG<> that have hexproof? Technically there's the 2/2 protection from non-artifacts Metalcraft guy, but I don't think you want him.
I call it Arti/Clue Fit.
@Arianrhod: If it has >3 toughness and/or a CMC >3, we're well on our way. Hexproof artifact creatures don't exist, I just checked.
Generating a heap of Clue tokens to abuse in some other way than drawing cards might be worth looking into. We have mana, we have tutors. If there's any deck that has a chance to pull it off, it's us. I don't think we should put too much effort in keeping Ravager alive - it should have the best value as a sac outlet (that threatens to kill the opponent if left unanswered). Consider it a sorcery that says "2 mana, Sacrifice any number of artifacts: do stuff". If it does get to smash face, that's just icing on the cake. It shouldn't be its primary role.
Are there any useful sac outlets that allow for the sacrificing of permanents for value? I know there's a bunch for creatures, obviously, and there's some for artifacts...but are there any that allow us to do either? A hybrid sac outlet that lets us off both Vets and extra Clues would be valuable.
Note that Tezz AoB's ultimate works well with a pile of Clues, as does making them 5/5s that draw a card when they are targeted with removal.
If you want good targets for Ravager, you could always try to fit Inkmoth / Blinkmoth Nexus into your mana base. They can't be decayed at least.
This deck doesn't want Deed, looks like, or at least it's worse than in other builds. Is there an alternative board-equaliser you can use? I guess you could just run more Deluge and Strix.
I haven't been able to play recently, so I have just been lurking the thread for a bit. Sporadically and at random.
A serious question, no malice here, just a genuine question dictated by my own curiosity: are you guys actually testing all these kinds of decklists you all are posting? Is this only the theory crafting part before the final cuts or what? I see the thread is being flooded by new kinds of strategies and I have lost track of where we want to go eventually with the deck. Rhino got the axe and now we are discussing to put more trackers in the deck instead? Is this where we are going?
(To Echelon: this is just curiosity, I'm not spitting negativity against your work. After a fair bit of misunderstandings I find it is necessary to put this disclaimer) :D
I brew incessantly. Like, realistically should we be talking about Clues.dec two weeks out from Legacy GP weekend? Probably not. But if you dangle something interesting in front of my face, I can't really help but work on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Usually the lists that I post that are singles are tested, when I post a large volume of lists (such as last night), they're more theorycrafted, as I'm looking for the list that I want to start testing from a pool of possible candidates, each of which has some seed idea that I want to work from.
Compulsive brewer..nice!Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
e: I'll keep lurking now..
I'm about the same way. It's hard for me to stay with the same list for any amount of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
So I took this list for a league spin over the weekend:
BUG Lily/Jace
15
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Baleful Strix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Tragtusk
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Consecrated Sphinx
6
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
19
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
21
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
side:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Notion Thief
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Golgari Charm(can't remember, either this or Deluge I think)
Went 2-3 losing to Burn, Omnitell, and Eldrazi. Winning against High Tide and Storm. Had another match against 12Post that I won. More experience with the list would have been a huge benefit.
Others have said that BUG is weak to Burn and I'd definitely agree - was only able to win a game 2 due to Thragtusk.
Omnitell I probably sided incorrectly...kept the Explorers in when I probably should have removed them and just boarded fully into control.
Eldrazi was just fast like it always is, and I misplayed by fielding a Liliana against a clean board. Smasher came in and cleaned her up...should have waited until there was something to make them lose. Had 3 Jace in my hand once. :/
High Tide easy, basically just surgical extracted his High Tides both games (happened on my turn 1 game 2).
Storm wasn't a real match, guy fizzled after trying to go off after seeing a Therapy in my hand. Then just conceded the entire match for some reason.
List feels like it has potential though despite a rough start, it's pretty fun and draws a TON of cards. Edric is an all-star. Game against 12Post, I stripped his hand, then just sat there attacking with dorks, drawing 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 cards a turn.
Pernicious Deed + Liliana is a great pair. Deed punishes the opponent for overextending. Liliana punishes the opponent for underextending. Ditto with Jace.
I think I'll try to move away from Gitrog and Sphinx (didn't get a chance to play either), and add a 2nd Thragtusk and a 2nd Tracker. Basically little dudes with card advantage + powerful walkers. Since they have CA built in (most of them) then you don't mind losing one or two when needing to Deed. Another idea is Kitchen Finks and Meren. Finks makes the mana a tad more difficult early on. I've got a round 1 bye at Columbus, but I still want to be prepared against Burn...
Capsize may also deserve a slot.
Tireless Tracker is definitely worthy of a close look, and potentially more than a singleton slot.
however I'm not sure if building around the guy is a good idea. His major strength (at least as far as I see it) is that he always provides value and demands an answer, even if he doesn't have support from anywhere else really. Nic Fit is a deck which is more of an 'engine' deck - it plays a lot of cards which require other cards to do real work (Veteran and Therapy are the obvious ones, but also Nightmare, Equipment, Deed, and Witness). Tracker provides an option which does something with none of the support the rest of the deck demands, filling a slot which only Sigarda and Planeswalkers really do otherwise, and at a lower CMC. He's a really good Zenith target when both players are on a relatively empty board.
Building around Tracker seems kind of counterproductive when one of his biggest strengths is that you dont' have to. By going to 3 Trackers, say, we've reduced the number of slots in the deck which are garbage when drawn on their own. We should build on that advantage, rather than spend it by including more cards (like Fangren Marauder and Arcbound Ravager) which go back to the same problem, and are terrible unless we draw them with other engine pieces.
If we're going to build around a strategy that promises huge piles of value, but folds to RIP, has some weak individual pieces, and depends on keeping removable creatures in play, we might as well go for the Meren/Nightmare strategy rather than Tireless, since at least Meren is resilient to nonwhite removal effects.
Hopefully that makes sense to you guys.
No nice way to say this so ... we all like to brew. But please keep the lists for yourself until you have tested them a few times and the ideas until they are a bit refined. Throw a list together, make a few test games on cockatrice against randoms and see if you have something that works - before posting. Otherwise your creativity turns into unproductive spam that other people are forced to read. Arcbound Ravager in Nic Fit is completely atrocious in every way. Disciple of the Vault is even worse.
Thanks for the report.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Here are some food for thoughts:
1) I dunno if you've seen the list I provided some pages ago (+ comments), but you should take a look @ it (or @ my signature).
2) I fear 2 Ooze MD are mandatory in any heavy walker list. Burn will be a lot easier.
3) Your curve is too high. Moving away from Gitrog and Sphinx, as you said, will smooth the whole thing.
4) I played with 21 lands for a longtime. I am since pretty convinced that 22 is the perfect number.
5) When you play blue, you should be playing some hardcounters (negate, countersquall, etc...). They are THAT amazing (even with Liliana)
6) Your targetted removal & sweepers package should not only be multicolored spells. "MoR + Revoker" on Deed is 90 % a gameloss.
7) Last but no least, you should choose what your primary goal is. Kill with Walkers or Kill with creatures. I feel like you have too many of both.
Anyway, if you have any questions, feel free to shoot.
I'm also preparing for GP Prague :)
I think the classic go to now is for 2 deed plus a deluge. That are 3 deed plus the deluge. You need another sweeper that can deal with mom revoker combo but also be a fast sweeper that can help against elves and delver.
When I played Bug nic fit I had 3 jace. I only played 2 Lily because as good as she is I found on her own she isnt more than a cruel edict with upside. We dont have punishing fire or loam. Nor are you particularly fast where shardless can start with drs into goyf and provide a fast clock. She worked great in tandem with jace of course.
I only played the 3 jace and a couple of tar pits as real win cons. I also had 2 Thragtusks which was to help with burn/aggro match up but also turned Jace into a win con when fatesealing wasnt viable. Swinging with tusk and bouncing replaying creates a pretty decent amount of power fast and the life gain insulates from crack backs.
I agree that when you make a bug list you want to really decide the route you want to take. Either you are on the jace and spare change plan or drop most of the walkers aside from a few jace and plan to just be a midrange deck that has some bigger top end.
I also played probe/strix/snap to really chew through the deck. Those cards also let me main deck fow so shredding their hand and landing an early jace that still could have fow of backup was very good. I know many ppl dislike probe both because they do not feel the need to use a "training wheel" and because it made the deck smaller but I recommend it as the deck is very slow so missing on the therapy vs combo was disaster as you cannot just hope to aggro them out even. Information is big with this deck too as if you run bs/gsz you want to know what type of big threat are they weak to, do you need a sweeper or not, etc. Also, the best cards in this deck are great but they start to slide off so keeping the deck tight and ensuring you get your best cards every game is a high priority.
Those are my initial thoughts on the bug list.
Thanks Tom for the feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
I really missed sharing ideas with you.
1) I tried the Probe + CT combo. Eventually, I dismissed it. It adds somehow clumsiness to your starting hands that feels really really bad in a control deck. The power of such combo is real but only in a deck playing ponder, brainstorm, probe and CT. I remember arguing with Qweerios about how much ponder was better to get the veteran + CT combo inline.
Don't fool ourselves, what we are looking for is advancing our gameplan. Period.
As much as I like playing Probe + CT altogether, I prefer Veteran + CT any day / all day; and to those who doubt it, yes it is easier to assemble the latter using Ponder rather than Probe.
2) 2nd Thragtusk. It is another option. I have elected the 1-of GSZ to increase my odds to see the green bastard I need (usually in the given order):
- Veteran/Wall
- Ooze
- Thragtusk
3) Bouncing creatures with Jace: I should have re-mentioned that as I use that trick more than often (Snapcaster + Thragtusk). Not to mention that for those playing with a Glen Elendra Archmage, there is a very good soft-lock here for any combo/control deck.
4) Glad you accentuate the "clock" issue. I have underlined it as well. Did you ever try Empty the Pits ? God that card is real.
5) Thanks for the Lili's idea. I'll ponder about cutting one.
I've considered the same thing, I have 2 Trackers now, I think the idea of 1 is crazy since you would rather GSZ something else and just draw into your CA. Adding more than 2 has been an issue of what to cut though, either Rhino's, Sigarda's, or some other CA piece need to come out and I haven't been ready to make that sacrifice yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Most of the complete lists I post, I do test (when I get the chance to). I like to take a number of different approaches to deckbuilding, coming up with small packages we might be able to build around is one of those approaches. More often than not I can't find enough stuff to make the list even near competitive, so I scrap the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
And lol!