Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Lately I take out Jitte, a Stp, Magus, Magus and bring in Crusader, Crusader, Pia/Kiran (or a 3rd Crusader), Warping Wail. So go heavier on immediate threats/humans + don't Blood Moon your own Caverns. If I have extra stuff to bring in like a Pithing Needle or Ratchet Bomb, I'll take out a Wingmare or Flickerwisp as a small hedge against Staticaster. Ever since Mentor+Staticaster became big I've left 3-4 StP in and can't recall ever losing a game with a dead one in hand. I am way more scared of them setting up an early Mentor or Staticaster than I am of the game going long, since this deck feels more inevitable than their win con.
In my experience something like 20% of Miracles players keep Counterbalance in against me g2/g3. With 3 Caverns there is a very good chance they'll have seen one G1, which is gonna help lead their hand even if they're not experienced in the match-up enough to take it out anyway. I think it is 100% correct to take them out even against Mono-W with no Caverns. They have some decent stuff to bring in, they need to keep FoWs for Cataclysm/Vial and they can't afford to play a card that is frequently just-dead, even if the upside exists. I honestly see the card Counterbalance so infrequently that sometimes I forget it's a part of the deck, let alone the reason why so many people resent playing the deck.
I have been playing Imperial w/ 3 Caverns for long enough that I don't know how much of this advice does or doesn't translate to mono-W (or mono-W with multiple Caverns), which has a faster clock but less inevitability. But I can say that hedging on StPs has post-board worked out for me very well, and has won me countless games. When it's not unreasonable to expect them to have something like 5-6 very good creatures post-board, it seems like Fiend Hunter might want some backup...
You boarding makes a lot of sense for a W/R list, but in a monowhite, double cavern shell already maxing out on Mirran Crusaders and not playing Wingmares, that leaves me with only Jitte and StP (and perhaps one Flickerwisp if I really want to push it) as potential side outs. Besides, I'm bringing 2 Council Judgements and a Warping Wail together with the Fiend Hunter (I've decided to cut both Cataclysm since our last discussion), so I still have 3-4 ways (other than Mangara and equipments) of answering problematic creatures that can also fill other roles if needed. So my boarding against Miracles currently looks like this: -4 StP, +2 Judgement +1 FH +1 Wail. I will try leaving 1 plow in and take out the Jitte instead, since jitte seems very very bad as an answer to Staticaster.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Yeah I guess if you're bringing in two Council's Judgements and a Wail you're not actually going down in removal much when it comes down to it.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Anyone play a green splash at all recently? A maverick death and taxes style hybrid I guess
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Teeg is too narrow to maindeck now that DTT isn't everywhere. Pridemage is okay, having a disenchant main is not terrible, especially if your deck is built to take advantage of exalted. And Sylvan Library is just a very good card, despite being a little bit of an awkward fit for the deck overall.
Having played a (very greedy) splash for a year straight now I believe the costs to mana inconsistency are not nearly as large as people imagine, and I would imagine you could build a GW build that performs about as well as Mono-W in the current meta - but you probably don't want many of the normal splash creatures main. Sylvan Library + better SB cards are probably 'worth' the drawbacks of a slightly less consistent manabase. If Eldrazi is the problem-to-solve then a light Green splash doesn't offer much that W doesn't, though I guess you could go even more Mavericky and start playing KotR.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Speaking of Green, yesterday Bahra streamed a new D+T variant with 4 Caverns, almost all humans (+Sfm, Revoker), 0 flyers and 4 Mayor of Avabruck, 4 Recruiter. Mayor's been a card I've been wanting to test for a while, at least as a one-of, after seeing it in Vintage lists.
The deck had mixed results due to a few punts / the fact that it wasn't tuned / losing to an Eldrazi God hand, but Mayor of Avabruck was a serious threat. The card is like Young Pyromancer in that it doesn't 'just win' upon resolution but it takes over the game within a few turns if if left unchecked. The most interesting thing about it was that on multiple occasions opponents were forced to awkwardly sequence their Brainstorms just to prevent Mayor from flipping, which means that the card + any other Innistrad werewolves actually have an interesting taxing effect attached.
I'm at least convinced that the card is 'a playable legacy card', whether it's in Naya taxes, a WG D+T humans list without red, actual-Maverick or a 4c/5c human tribal build, similar to the Vintage ones (e.g. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/19-09-14-4c-humans/). The last one would probably not be classifiable as Death and Taxes anymore and probably shouldn't play Port and Magus of the Moon. But I wouldn't be surprised if you could make an 'about as good as legacy Slivers' deck out of it that would be a lot of fun to play.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Yesterday I played another small event at my LGS winning it with 4-0. I am really happy with latest tournaments I've played (my overall record in the last 4 events is 15-2-2).
This time I won 2 Shardless BUG, BUG Control and Esper Stoneblade.
I changed a bit the way to go with my list, focusing games a bit less on the mana denial plan because of the change of the metagame caused by Eldrazi.
Right now I'm trying to focus the list in grindy matchups that are increasing in quantity, getting a bit worse Delver matchups (still being good matchups in general) and Infect, that is the matchup in which I see the change worse but if you know how to play the matchup you have a real chance.
Well, this is the most recent list I'm running:
MAINDECK:
4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Phyrexian Revoker
2 x Serra Avenger
4 x Flickerwisp
2 x Mirran Crusader
2 x Mangara of Corondor
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
7 x Plains
4 x Flagstones of Trokair
3 x Karakas
1 x Cavern of Souls
SIDEBOARD:
2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Mirran Crusader
3 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Sword of War and Peace
3 x Rest in Peace
I left out the set of Vryn Wingmare to improve specially against Shardless BUG and Eldrazi (although I had a great record against Eldrazi even with Vryn Wingmare version) among others, having also a maindeck solution against new hate cards as Moat could be, but probably I'd return to 4 x Vryn Wingmare for a major event because there are a lot of Delver decks in those tournaments as they are super consistent. Other options could be Ratchet Bomb or Dismember as sideboard cards. I really like that we have different options for flex slots for lots of different situations and metagames and they change the playstyle a lot, letting you to improve with your deck and in general as a Legacy player.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Having played a (very greedy) splash for a year straight now I believe the costs to mana inconsistency are not nearly as large as people imagine, a
Yeah I agree. I've been playing 2 basics in R/W since the deck's inception and it's fine.
You do however get BTFO out by WW taxes if they get even a mild mana-disruption + revoker draw, so that's something to keep in mind.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Tonight I played an Imperial list with
3 Plains / 1 Plateau / 3 Cavern
2 Flickerwisp / 2 Wingmare as the only flyers
1 Mangara / 1 Fiend Hunter as the last flex spots
and a SB of:
3 Ethersworn
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Relic Warder
1 Containment Priest
1 Fireslinger
1 Manic Vandal
I beat BUG Delver, Fish and Burn and split with Infect.
I liked the Fiend Hunter main, but I did play 4 creature decks. It was good in one game vs BUG Delver and potentially game winning in another vs Fish. In both cases the body wasn't particularly relevant and in one case a 2/2 Banisher Priest would have marginally better. I am still a bit hesitant about a main deck 1/3 vs Storm/Miracles. But I guess the Miracles matchup is strong enough that it's not that terrible, and Storm isn't in a great spot right now.
I think going down on flyers is okay if post-board there are 4 STP, 2 PTE and 2 Fiend Hunters for Delvers / opposing flyers. Having 8 pieces of pure removal post-board makes this deck play so differently vs creature decks.
I have yet to regret going to 3 Plains / 1 Plateau. I think it's very likely the right configuration.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Tonight I played an Imperial list with
3 Plains / 1 Plateau / 3 Cavern
2 Flickerwisp / 2 Wingmare as the only flyers
1 Mangara / 1 Fiend Hunter as the last flex spots
Mayor of Avabruck being mentioned earlier piqued my interest and I've been working with it, but haven't had a chance to take it out yet.
My mana-base is currently very similar to yours:
3 Plains / 1 Plateau / 3 Cavern / 5 Fetch / 4 Wasteland / 4 Port / 3 Karakas
Normal 11 Spells
And my creature-base is:
4x SFM, Mom, Thalia / 3x Recruiter, Revoker / 2x Flickerwisp, Magus, Mayor / 1x Mangara, Vryn Wingmare
The SB is in flux right now, as I'm going back and forth between 3 Crusader, Canonist, RIP and then a slew of 1-of's to tutor for if need be.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Yeah Mayor is very interesting, I get the sense that there's *some* place in legacy for that card - it's a bear that just runs away with the game on its own if left unchecked, which actually puts it among an elite group of cards in the game. It's even stronger in a deck that has 'too many targets' for their removal, since something usually ends up alive.
Maybe this deck is the home, or maybe some sort of zoo or true human tribal deck could use it (4 Thalia, 4 Bob, 4 Mayor, 4 Mother of Runes, etc.). Let us know how the testing goes.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ap/18.jpg
Could this guy come in vs anything beyond Infect?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Could this guy come in vs anything beyond Infect?
Wirewood Sybiote and Quirion Ranger...... very interesting
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I've always played at least 1 Fiend Hunter main in my Imperial builds and have never regretted it.
Going that low on Flickerwisps seems somehow wrong, however, that card is just so strong in D&T (and even stronger perhaps in Imperial).
You mention "strength against Miracles" and I agree. What initially drew me to the red splash was the power of chain imperial recruiters against Miracles; also the incidental 3 Caverns was very strong.
However, at SCG Indy I went 0-3 vs. Miracles... and the games played out in a strange way.
First (quick aside) I actually went 0-1-2 vs. Miracles... however... in the 2 draw situations I choose to concede to my opponent; because... well.... maybe because I'm an idiot.. but i hate draws and don't want to be locked into a draw bracket. However, I'm tired of miracles players (good or bad) feeling like they don't actually have to win 2 to get a match win because they can just win 1; then as game 3 ticks to a close point at the board and say "I kinda have a lock out here... do you concede?" This bothers me. The point of a magic deck is to be able to play 3 games in 50 minutes and win 2 of them; not be able to win at least 1.. and then hope for a strong enough board state to convince your opponent you should concede.
Okay anyway back to the Miracles/Taxes match-up.
I have felt like Magus is a dead card vs. them; although Bahra seems to feel the card should be left in.
What was confusing then was that vs. all 3 miracles opponents they sided IN their blood moons. (I sided out my Magus's). I told Bahra this and he said "well they are bad miracles players." Perhaps. But I found that not having access to Karakas, and (most important) Cavern of Souls was a huge hit to me... and the Blood Moon actually made it quite difficult for me to win... the exception being able to easily cast the sideboard P&K I brought in.
Without access to Cavern or Vial (all opponents brought in at least 1, if not more, wear/tears) I found it almost impossible to recover from the first Terminus in which a countertop lock or semi-lock had been acheived. Granted they didn't have any threats either (hence the technical draws)... but without Cavern I felt like once Vial was taken care of .. I had very little hope of getting a creature resolved.
Thoughts?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@iatee: Devoted Caretaker would be my vote if we're looking at pseudo-Mom #5.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I always side out Magus vs Miracles. Caverns are too good and Miracles fetches for basics early. I have won some g1s with Magus, but you can't count on it.
I think you just got unlucky and probably did play against bad Miracles players. If Blood Moon wasn't color screwing you and was merely keeping you off Cavern, your Vials were dead/offline + they had Countertop-lock, then you lost a game that any Death and Taxes build would lose. They had the right cards at the right time.
Leaving in Counterbalance g2/g3 is a bad decision for Miracles - they can't expect to hit Wear/Tear + Blood Moons reliably, and the card is terrible against 4 Vial / 3 Cavern otherwise. It shouldn't be left in vs Mono-W, but especially shouldn't be left in vs Imperial, which is more likely to have Caverns and generally has a higher density of 3 drops that can sneak through a live Counterbalance regardless.
Counterbalance/Blood Moon are only good in certain situations - they happened to hit those situations. Far more frequently Counterbalance is a totally dead card. Blood Moon has some value but also shuts off their ability to shuffle to a Terminus and costs them a card while doing so. They're playing 2 more spells that don't reliably interact with creatures. Basically we should side out *our* Blood Moons for the exact same reason they should side out their Counterbalances and not bring in their Blood Moons - it can be quite good, it can be quite bad, it's better to play cards that don't have that risk attached. (Back to Basics, the other Miracles Eldrazi tech, seems way better for that reason, both against us and in general...)
Sometimes they'll get away with this and Counter-top lock is miserable when it gets you, but if you're already playing 4 Vial and 3 Cavern of Souls, you're already doing about as much as you'll ever want to do to ensure that you don't have to worry about it.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
Yeah that's not the worst, though it doesn't do much during the first few turns when you're curving out and it really matters. But the Mom-effect is more the extra-upside - the primary use would be to destroy Infect w/ an uncounterable 2 drop that doesn't care about naturalize effects.
Good call on Wirewood/Ranger, c2232. I think it would definitely come in. So there's two matchups. I think you bring it in in the mirror to suck up STPs and Flickerwisp activations. It's not incredible in either of those matchups, but it's pretty decent.
Against black decks you'd be bringing in another x/1 which is not really where you want to be.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AsmodeusDM
First (quick aside) I actually went 0-1-2 vs. Miracles... however... in the 2 draw situations I choose to concede to my opponent; because... well.... maybe because I'm an idiot.. but i hate draws and don't want to be locked into a draw bracket. However, I'm tired of miracles players (good or bad) feeling like they don't actually have to win 2 to get a match win because they can just win 1; then as game 3 ticks to a close point at the board and say "I kinda have a lock out here... do you concede?" This bothers me. The point of a magic deck is to be able to play 3 games in 50 minutes and win 2 of them; not be able to win at least 1.. and then hope for a strong enough board state to convince your opponent you should concede.
Also, in the future you need to ignore your previous losses vs Miracles as bad luck / variance, take the draw in the future and embrace the draw bracket. You're playing Cavern of Souls and Imperial Recruiters and have an insane g1 against Miracles. Get in that draw bracket.
Also, giving Miracles players unearned wins allows them to play more optimally than they would given time constraints and play a deck with fewer win cons / more answers. If you're gonna play a deck with 3 win cons in the 60 + 1000 Top activations, the burden's on you to win twice in 50 minutes. So conceding is wrong for multiple reasons.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Wouldn't Spellskite just do the same, and actually has use for some other matchups?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Spellskite dies to Nature's Claim, Grip, Corrupter, and gets shut off by Needle - all of which they're bringing in against us anyway and the Naturalize effects are probably going to be played in higher numbers now due to Eldrazi. Obviously you'd play it and it would be great most of the time, but this is a little better overall, and can't even be Daze'd if you have a Cavern, beating some of their strongest hands. It can be Piracy Charmed, for what it's worth.
Vs. non-Infect, this doesn't block well but doesn't cost life to use, which can add up. Spellskite isn't incredible vs Burn since they're bringing in a pile of Smashes and we have no U mana, can be Revokered/Needled by DnT and Rec Sage'd by Elves. But it is a solid wall.
