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A good starting place might be the list Tony Wong finished 8th with at SCG Indianapolis earlier this year. It does seem to rely rather heavily on Mox/CotV, so I'm not sure what replacing them with other cards might do for the consistency and general aim of the deck. I also recall Jeff Hoogland running a Junk Depths deck at that same SCG, but the list was never posted. I guess Junk Deths got slightly overshadowed by Jund Depths at that SCG...Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I think Hoogland's list was this:
Land (26)
2 Barren Moor
3 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
Creature (11)
2 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vampire Hemage
Sorcery (8)
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
Artifact (8)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
Instant (4)
4 Abrupt Decay
Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
1 Dark Depths
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Peacekeeper
1 Phyreian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Vampire Hemage
1 Wasteland
I dont like Living Wish at all. I tested it quite extensively a couple of months ago. In most games, it was too slow. Especially against combo, you are dead before you can fetch a hatebear. I got much better results with a real sideboard.
This is a Depths list I ran the last two weeks:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Mox Diamond
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
Sideboard:
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
I finished 3rd and 5th in two 30 man tournaments. The matchups were:
Dredge (2:0)
Death & Taxes (1:1)
Punishing Maverick (2:0)
Canadian (2:1)
Jund (ID)
and
RUG Control (0:2)
UWR Blade without Delver but with Punishing Fire / Grove (2:0)
UWr Miracles (2:1)
Deathblade (2:1)
Goblins (2:1)
BUG Control (top 8 playoffs, 0:2) - I just got slaughtered by Innocent Blood, Liliana, Decay and Pernicious Deed...
Mox Diamond / Chalice of the Void is just awesome against most decks in the format (e.g. Elves, Blade Decks, Canadian, most combo decks basically anything that isnt Goblins or Merfolk).
With 25 lands + 4 moxes, the deck tends to flood out sometimes, but with 3 Bobs and 2 Libraries you can dig through chunks of lands pretty well.
I run Tarmogoyfs over Stoneforge Mystic because there is a lot of equipment hate out there due to TNN. Also, Goyf goes better with Toxic Deluge. Rest in Peace was annoying, but not backbreaking.
How was the Tabernacle? What did you bring that in for, and I guess you relied on finding it through Knight? What about Crop Rotation instead of Loam?
Was Choke useful?
---
Equipoise
I'm gonna try to get my hands on one of these for testing.
Equipoise seems slow, but interesting. With no creatures on board, it means their creatures will phase out. Phasing in doesn't trigger ETB triggers, so Batterskull phasing out then back in is a huge mana set back. Interesting card, let me know what you find out.
/Forever searching for the perfect list.
-Matt
If you phase out the Germ token, Batterskull goes with it via "indirect phasing". The Germ then ceases to exist, and since indirectly phased cards only phase back in with their original companion (creature enchantments, equipment), the Batterskull never comes back. Ever.
Oh, I know that, but what I'm saying is if Batterskull was equipped to TNN. I'd obviously love to live the dream where i get the Germ token, but it's likely we'll have one creature against SFM and Batterskull, so they'll likely just muck the SFM. But, after reading it again, it looks like we get to target. Excellent :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
-Matt
In the two tournaments, I boarded Tabernacle only against Dredge, where it was devastating in game 2. In past tournaments, I boarded it against Elves, TES and Belcher (additional sweeper against EtW that can't be discarded). It's great at slowing down Elves if it comes down early enough. I don't board it against fair creature matchups (e.g. Goblins or D&T), because they tend to run Vial and enough lands. Maybe I should try it against Delver decks though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
The main reason I included Tabernacle is Dredge, since I don't have enough slots for dedicated graveyard hate.
Crop Rotation is pretty bad in a deck that wants to resolve Chalice on 1.
Choke was great against UWR Stoneblade. Never drew it against Miracles. In general it's good against blue based control and Omni-Show (if you survive long enough). I wouldn't use it against blue tempo decks, because it's kind of clunky.
Hah, fair point against Crop Rotation. I know that with the new Jund Depths, a Loam + Wasteland lock is insanely powerful when combined with Tabernacle and has been used to good extent against Delver decks on camera.
I'm going to be trying this:
Land (23)
3x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library
Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
Creature (17)
3x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tarmogoyf
Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Instant (7)
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery (6)
2x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Thoughtseize
Sideboard (15)
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Engineered Plague
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Golgari Charm
1x Krosan Grip
1x Life from the Loam
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Zealous Persecution
Basically, added a Knight to the main and added the Dark Depths combo. Not sure how effective it'll be in diluted concentration, but we'll see. 2 Knight, 2 GSZ is like running 4 Knights, and I've got enough dig as well. I had to shave a Sylvan and relegate it to the board to make room. Essentially, I went +1 Knight, -1 Sylvan; -1 Marsh Flats, -1 Forest, +1 Thespian's Stage, +1 Dark Depths
The board has been balanced a bit more. I'm not 100% sure on why I'm running 2 Charm/1 ZP split, but I feel like not killing my Confidants and such some of the time is worth it, and pushing through can work as well. I don't know, maybe it just needs to be a Massacre, Drown in Sorrow, or something.
ANT gets dumped on by Therapy, Thalia, Safekeeper, Teeg, and Ooze, and you board out STP, Knight, a SFM, 2 Decay, and a Jitte. SoFaI could mean they might not bounce Teeg ever, and Batterskull's ever dividing life differences are muoy bueno for you.
TES, same thing.
Omnishow and Sneak Attack get Thalia, Teeg, charm, Therapy, Grip and Safekeeper, while boarding out Ooze, STP, Decay, a SFM, and a Jitte.
Elves gets Charm, ZP, Plague, Cabal, and Teegs. Removing a Pridgemage, Goyfs, Dark Confidants, and SoFaI. You would hardly ever fetch SoFI over Jitte, and Confidant will forever die against Charms. Goyf is just a dumb do nothing in that matchup unless you're already winning.
Patriot and Esperblade are really where I wanted to focus since the "best deck" in the room will be piloted by the better players, instead of everyone who has their own pet deck. The point of the current build is to be a bit preboarded against the creature decks, then ideally, do better against the TNN decks. Dark Depths and SFM are two different ways to "ignore" TNN, it just depends which comes together better and/or first.
Against Patriot, put in Charms, ZP, Plague, Grip, Loam, and Ooze. Remove Thoughtseizes, Goyfs, and a Confidant.
Against Esper, Bring in charms, ZP, Plague, Grip, Loam and Ooze, Sylvan and Safekeeper. Bring out Thoughtseize, Goyfs, Confidants. Confidants are just going to get really hurt by Charms, and you have to hedge against RIP with Esperblade.
Against Jund, bring out the Thoughtseizes and bring in Safekeeper, Loam, Ooze, and Sylvan.
Against RUG Delver, bring in Safekeeper, Loam, Ooze, 2 Teegs, and a Sylvan. Remove Thoughtseizes and 2 Confidants.
Against Dredge, remove 4 Decay and add Ooze, 2 Teeg, and a Safekeeper. Safekeeper isn't so much to protect Teeg as it is to sac Dryad Arbor to remove Bridges.
Against Reanimator, which I feel I have the worst board against, is add Ooze, Therapy, Safekeeper, and Thalia. Remove 3 Decay, Qasali, SFM, and a Jitte.
Against DnT, which is shaping up to be a VERY good deck in the format (I'm currently 1-2 against it), I'd bring in 2 Charms, 1 ZP, 1 Plague (naming Humans for Thalia and Mother of Runes), Safekeeper (even though you're naming Human, one might come up and not the other), and Loam (to counter their mana denial). Bring out Thoughtseizes and Goyfs (for RIP incoming). I'm wondering if Grip could come in, but if so, what is bring cut? A Confidant?
Against Miracles, which is one of our easier matchups, we bring in Grip, Safekeeper, Charm, Teeg and Sylvan. Being out Thoughtseizes and Goyfs.
---------------
It's mainly that I want to try the Dark Depths plan, and Knight is still very good in some matchups. Being able to end the game with a combat stalemate, active Jace, etc. on board looks quite awesome. If it's not very good, I'll try something else. Thoughts on my logic here? Still needs to be put into practice, but I didn't want to board too few cards against TNN. I'm definitely lacking gravehate and REALLY miss Smiter, but the fact that Smiter can't be countered is great, but it doesn't do anything. It's not proactive against TNN, Elves, Combo or DnT, which means it's only good against Delver decks and Jund. I don't think we have THAT bad of a matchup against those particular two decks to warrant the inclusion.
-Matt
Wow. I really like that list. Is that an ample amount of fetches for DRS though?
Maybe not, but cutting colour producing stuff also seems dicey. The Dryad Arbor could become the fetch again, but, acceleration and other combat tricks have been awesome. Maybe a single Savannah?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
-Matt
I like the list as well, its close to what I played this past weekend. I don't know how I feel about the goyfs, they can do work but after playing with lingering souls I' d play two copies over the goyf. Souls over performed for me and were cornerstones to me stabilizing and forcing through damage.
3 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Lingering Souls
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Crop Rotation
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thespian's Stage
I used to play this list for a while. Didn't get to play tournaments with it, but it was actually good at blowing stuff up, then stalling until Knights pulled out the 20/20 or just killed them outright. Moms and Safekeeper are pretty obvious: they protect Knights, hatebears, and Marit Lage. They're good, but I would probably remove one Mom and add one more Stoneforge just to make the alternate guy-with-sword plan more available. If you're wondering, I couldn't run Bobs because my meta invalidated them. I was even thinking of trimming some GSZ and Souls because the meta was too fast. Lots of Affinity, Show and Tell, and Reanimator around here.
This decklist seems to be in wrong thread. It's almost a stock Maverick deck. Cabal Therapies are basically the only non-standard cards here. Though to be honest, it seems to me that Deadguy Ale, Maverick and the Rock are all drifting towards similar junk-colored core.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .Ix
I suppose you could say it's not exactly Junk, but it plays much closer to Junk than Maverick. The Souls, discard, and Decay set it apart from Maverick IMO. If I had posted that list in the Maverick thread they would have told me to go away. And I definitely agree with your observation - the lines between those three decks have been blurred more than ever.
I've tried playing Dark depths/thespian stage combo in a Rock build and I don't like it. It's way too fragile since we don't have any ways to protect or to recure it
Like someone else said, I'm very happy with Lingering souls. The card buys you a lot of time when you need it and most importantly it flies over Elves (carrying jitte) or TNN. It's also decent against PWs like Jace which is kind of a problem
Also I've read people saying miracles is an easy matchup, or rather, to our favour. And I can't really agree with this. I played quite some games against a friend of mine and I lost almost every game before SB. At that time I ran a standard list with goyfs, confidants, deathrite and smiters. (No SFM or Souls though) And it always ran out of gas as he kept killing everything I put in play. The games I won were when I had t1 discard t2 hymn t3 liliana
That said I think SFM should improve that matchup a lot (as well as lingering souls).
Ive played extensively vs miracles and id put the match at even post board for me but im running hymn and souls and no goyfs. The threat suit can get there without commiting more then one threat to the board. Not relying on the graveyard has been key if rip hurts your deck a lot, thier spot removal and sweepers are going bury you. Between stoneforge big knights and deathrite you can run them out of stp and go for gerry t. Forcing an early terminus with souls can help as well. My buddy and I play the match casually very frequently and always end up with long drawn out wars in can be a very fun interactive matchup. There was a time I played vraska in the side and she can be very good in this matchup, id imagine elspeth would be ok as well but she wont break up a counter top lock. Between 3 decay 2 charms 2 oring 1 pulse and 1 deluge and discard its easy to break up their win cons and chip away.
So Sunyveil on MTGO played this list against Joe's Miracles last night on Joe's stream. The Junk list went 3-1, losing only to Joe:
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Sylvan Library
4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 STP
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition
//BOARD
2 Nature's Claim
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Thalia
1 Teeg
1 Jitte
1 Canonist
1 Plague
1 O Ring
1 Zuran Orb
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 STP
2 Enlightened tutor
Thoughts? I'm wondering what he won/lost against.
-Matt
Looks like a pretty stock list. The sideboard is...different. I'm a fan of tutor packages, but the choices like Zuran Orb and then singletons Thalia and Teeg seem awkward.
Did it beat Joe?
I would imagine it lost to Show and Tell.