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I don't think its a tempo card.
I feel like the card could be powerful against RUG. Everybody I play with knows my board strategy (Swarms/Silence) . Just thinking of different things to try out.
Iv also considered Jona's strategy against RUG. His strategy is to board in more Tendrils complemented by Carpet of Flowers and aTop.
That way you just worry about Flusterstorms and Stifle.
One thing that's always seemed odd about the million win cons plan is that we play LED. Or is the main plan to just cantrip float them anyway?
Yeah LED does get in the way of that plan a little. So does Infernal Tutor. I'd probably trim those down when boarding. Going all in on a Tutor and LED is not always the greatest against them anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Hymn for us is meh because we don't necessarily want card advantage from our discard; we want to a.) see their hand, and b.) get rid of very specific threats, neither of which does Hymn typically allow us to do.
(About Hymn to Tourach:)
Why do so many people mistake card advantage with tempo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
Card advantage is an entirely different thing. Actually they are often opposites.
Tempo example (wacky Bant against Burn):
T1: Forest, cast Noble Hierarch.
T1: Draw, Mountain, cast Goblin Guide - opp responds: Force of Will that Guide.
T2: Draw, City of Traitors, cast Garruk Wildspeaker, untap both lands, cast Tarmogoyf.
That's tempo. Using accellerating cards or free cards to develop your board and expand your resources, while preventing the opponent from developing his board and/or denying him his resources.
Hymn to Tourach is a very NON-tempo card.
Hymn example (Eva Green against Zoo):
T1. Swamp, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter.
T1. Draw, fetch Mountain, Lightning Bolt that Hyppie.
T2. Draw, fetch Bayou, cast Hymn to Tourach. Zoo discards two cards.
T2. Draw, play Savannah, cast Tarmogoyf.
Situation is now: Both have three cards in hand. Eva Green player has a board of two lands, Zoo player has two lands and a big creature. So, casting the Hymn was loss of tempo (he let the opponent develop his board more, while not doing so himself). The turn one play from the Eva player was a tempo play though (accellerating into a serious CMC3 threat). The turn one play by Zoo shows why such a play can sometimes backfire.
Tempo cards:
- Submerge!!
- Force of Will!!
- Pyrokinesis!!
- Mox Diamond &Chrome Mox!!
- Dark Ritual (if used properly)
- Mana accelleration creatures (Hierarch, Deathrite, Zenith for Arbor)
- Mana denial cards that cost little mana to play/use
- Tangle Wire
- Daze on the play
Non-tempo cards:
- Any discard spell
- Cantrips, SDT, Sylvan Library
- Daze on the draw (slows your own development down too much)
Tempo simply means "who has the initiative?". Playing on tempo too much runs the risk of running "out of gas". This could give the opponent time to recover, take over the initiative, and often win the game. That's why playing a tempo deck is quite hard.
(I'll post this in the article & discussion section as well. That's where it belongs.)
Slowly updating the guide (link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post767273), be sure to take a look at it. There are a few matchups that I feel a little iffy on, because I mostly play against Death&Taxes, ANT, Elves, and swamp.dec. I'll do my best to write something for these, but I'm the scribe, not the expert. :)
brief report: just top 8'd sdematt's legacy classic, falling to the man himself in the quarters. 3-1-1 in the swiss. seems i lost my notes so i'll get this on "paper" quickly.
Maindeck
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
1 Lim-Dűl's Vault
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Massacre
2 Dread of Night
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapour
R1) vs D0LPHY (BG Pox).
lose the die roll.
G1 his t1: land, mox diamond, sylvan library, pass.
my t1: rip AdN. probe, petal, DR, DR, Chrome Mox, respond to trigger with AdN from twenty…yeah.
G2 i also go off my turn 2 or turn 3 on the draw. he kept thought seize, hymn, decay and 4 lands (including wasteland). he seizes away IT (i think?) t1 but leaves me with therapy. i blind name hymn with therapy my t1 and hit. lost my notes but it was another early ad nauseam from 18 after his t3 factory swing and thats it.
1-0 (2-0)
R2) vs BrettF (TES) (Brett, feel free to chime in here, this memory is hazy).
G1) win the roll. probe him without therapy, see a silence i have to deal with. dig next turn and find the duress, take the silence, then go off with DRit into CRit into another Ad Nauseam from 16 this time, get there.
G2) this one goes a bit longer as he keeps the double-cantrip hand. i think i take his only ritual off my duress then proceed to sculpt. he does a little digging as well and finds 12 goblins. i take a hit, he rips up hand (blind therapies away 2x CRit, leaving me with island, USea, DRit, and PiF. rip ponder, see LED as card #3 and pop LED for RRR alongside BBB from the ritual and empty my graveyard into a lethal tendrils, all from that little last B.
2-0 (4-0)
R3) vs Doug on Affinity.
win the roll.
G1) T1 duress takes his plating. he lands skirge, memnite, signal pest, opal t1. cute. i dig on my t2, take a hit, fire off an AdN from 16, loop through PiF and thats that.
G2) he leads on den, drum, ornithopter. i probe and see Canonist, den, and tomb. totally reasonable 6, but i have 5 storm and a tutor on the stack with BBBRRR floating following a brainstorm. feel AdN has been above average for me up to this point and i have all 4 big drops in the deck, so i just make 12 goblins and pass. he plays canonist, has to chump with it, the ornithopter, and a freshly played memnite on my attack—after his next draw its all over.
3-0 (6-0)
R4) vs Trent on Shardless BUG.
i have a sinking feeling because this one is still tough as a still-learning storm player—unlike patriot or RUG, i don't get enough of a chance to playtest this matchup and the other pilot i keep meeting competitively with this deck has a hex on me…luckily i probably don't need more than a point from the next two rounds to make top 8.
lose the roll.
G1) i take his force on t1 with duress off a petal after probe-ponder, a few turns later he taps his DRS and his shardless agent (which hit a visions) t4 to attack me to 16 so i decide its AN time having made a land drop and checking his hand with a therapy or duress (i forget which). Infernal tutor does the last 2 to kill me after 4 rituals and an LED, needed a petal or chrome mox and a petal was the next card.
G2) i think i kept fetch, brainstorm, carpet, ad nauseam, swarm, trop on 6 on the play. hold up brainstorm but his t1 DRS lets me rip ponder on my turn. pondered first, kept up brainstorm to hide ad nauseam. rip a second carpet T2 and play it, trigger for swarm and play that. he shocks me a couple times and lands a goyf, have to go for it next turn from 13—another AdN brick.
2-1 (6-2)
R5) James (TNN Bant)
watched him play and sideboard against Trent after my quick win in R3, so i know what he's on. quad RIP and flusterstorm in the board, maindeck Teeg, GSZ, and thalia… he offers the ID and i can't really turn it down given his good breakers and my dubious matchup.
ID (6-1-1)
Top 8 rolls around—the bottom X-2 who valiantly fought back to 3-2 after losing the first 2 rounds misses out on breakers by 4%.
Top 8) vs sdematt on Pavlic Junk.
lose the roll.
G1) this one is infuriating, not because i have to battle my pal Matt, but because after surviving his thoughtseize and having enough mana and a clear line to play around his double DRS, i brick on 4-5 cantrips and 13 cards to hit any business. on my last turn before succumbing to DRS shocks and Dryad Arbor beats (ugh) i play out petal x2, drit x2, crit x 2, and LED before scooping 'em up.
at least i'm on the play G2 against his board of pure hate. teeg, thalia, thoughtseize, hymn, rest in peace…
my 7 has no interaction with both tendrils and PiF in hand with no brainstorm.
my 6 has a trop, no black source, and no brainstorm.
my 5 has no mana sources.
my 4 has therapy, dread of night, misty, and island. i have a prayer. last time i face matt in t8 his mull to 4 against my Omnitell got there with the exact perfect sequence (having missed my crucial 3rd land drop on that occasion, even after pondering)—maybe its time for the tables to turn?
i tank on what to play first (since i'm dead to wasteland) and decide to blind therapy him for thoughtseize off a fetched USea. i hit, and see 2 lands, teeg, decay, thalia. he plays DRS and passes. ok, might survive this! draw ponder, ponder into chain of vapor, Drit, IT. draw the chain and play dread of night. he plays teeg and passes. i draw the rit and pass. he abrupt decays the dread and plays thalia. shit. right about now i realize i should have held the dread of night. i draw the IT and he plays goyf with DRS up. he shocks me, then swings for 8—i'm dead on board. rip a DRit and the day is one.
Magic Gods, you owe me consecutive T1s against matt.
more than double my money and pick up a badlands for 6th!
props to ad nauseam. i'd love to make this more viable Ad Nauseam deck—maybe go to 2 chrome mox and play the rain of filth? i was spoiled by TinFins but i just want to go off faster and faster. maybe i should just try TES…
props to Matt for bringing unbridled combo hate and winning his own tournament…again.
props to Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy (together but also alone), and to cracking LED with probe on the stack to squeeze out the extra point of storm when necessary.
slops to…variance?
Broke a 1 month Magic slump by switching back to an unfair deck.
Went 4-0-2 in swiss in a local 54 person tournament. Won my quarterfinal match and then split top 4 prize.
I think 75 is almost identical to Mark Tocco's. My sideboard has not changed in months, since I have not been playing AnT that much.
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard:
3 Dark Confidant
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
Round 1:
2-1 Stoneblade
Round 2:
2-0 Jund
Round 3:
2-1 Merfolk
Round 4:
2-1 Jund
Round 5:
Draw with GBW Junk.
Played the match anyways and we drew after he Zenithed for Gaddock Teeg(with no other pressure) since I wanted to get food instead of playing another 20 minutes of me digging for removal for Teeg while he tried to assemble 20 damage as I sculpted my hand.
Round 6:
Draw with ???
Top 8:
2-0 same Junk opponent
Hatebears are much harder to play around than counterspells and I would actually rather play against Tempo/Uxx Midrange all day instead of hatebears that make life miserable.
Why Badlands over Bayour or vice-versa? Is it personal preference generally?
Tempo isn't just board presence, cards mana and life all factor in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
The number of cards in hand matter only if the tempo player runs out of gas. Tempo deck usually also try to deny the opponent's mana development, which makes cards in hand very irrelevant. What good is a Jace if you are unable to cast it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
Mana I explained already (developing resources in order to expand board presence / denying your opponent's mana development to stop him from expanding his board presence). Very important part of tempo.
Life always matters if you are playing a fair deck. An opponent being low on life means every threat might be lethal. That's of course a good situation for a tempo deck, because running out of gas will then be less likely to cause you to lose the game. Any simple Lightning Bolt you draw will be a winner. Perhaps a Delver also (evasion).
So I played in a 137 man tournament. I ended up with a quite lacklustre 5-3 record losing to Shardless BUG, mono blue Omniclash and Dark Maverick and winning against Esper Stoneblade, Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show and Dead Guy Ale.
In one game, the one against Dark Maverick (we were both 4-2 at the time and in contention for top-16 and a couple of fetchlands as prizes) I had a bit of a mulligan dilemma in a game I ended up losing. Here's the scenario:
I win the die roll and we both know what the other is playing as it's a guy from my LGS. He only ever plays Maverick and is very profecient with it. We shuffle up and I see a 7 that's just unkeepable. Don't remember it exactly but it was a sure toss. He keeps his 7. When I get my 6 they look like this: 2x Dark Ritual, 2x Lion's Eye Diamond, 1x Infernal Tutor, 1x Cabal Ritual. Do you keep or do you go down to 5?
I ended up keeping at got duly punished as I didn't see a land or petal on my first draw and he dropped a Thalia before I got my second. Eventually it got embarassing as I didn't see a land for another 3 drawsteps and by then he had full control with thalia and a couple of deathrite shamans.
My reasoning for keeping were: a) I was 90 % he didn't play discard preboard. b) He's insta dead if I see a land or petal. c) I didn't have confindence that I'd get a hand of 5 that could do enough.
I was tired as it was the 7th round and all (this was my first big tournament, so not exactly experienced at playing this many rounds) and, seeing how things played out, I felt like kicking myself for not mulliganing again. Now, in the clear light of day I'm not 100 % sure though. Could any of you try and put yourselves in my shoes and analyze the situation? :)
For reference, here's the list I played:
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
1x Thoughtseize
1x Grim Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Preordain
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Massacre
1x Karakas
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
Usually one plays either Tropical + Badlands, or Bayou + Volcanic. This has something to do with optimizing your fetchlands, which becomes much easier if you arrange your duals like this. I don't think it matters which combination you pick: you usually want 4x Delta and X blue and X black fetch. If you play Volcanic + Tropical, your black fetch cannot find both of these. Also if you play Bayou + Badlands, your blue fetch cannot find both of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs
Tropical + Badlands means you play 4x Delta, 2-3x Scalding Tarn, 1-2x Verdant Catacombs
Volcanic + Bayou means you play 4x Delta, 2-3x Misty Rainforest, 1-2x Bloodstained Mire
I cannot think of a reason to choose either over the other. So I guess this depends on what you have available, or which pictures you like best. :wink:
There is about 35% that you will draw either petal or a land on your turn (there is also 7% chance to draw a probe giving you an additional draw). Since he knows what your playing and kept his 7 chances are he has a Thalia. This means you only have one drawstep to draw that IMS.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Personally I think I would have mulliganed since you don't autolose if you don't combo off before he makes his second land drop (masssacre + swamp i very fine in giving you more time).
This said I may be biased on this subject because I have been punished for greedy keeps way to much in the past :tongue:.
PS: how did the Pneedles in the sideboard work out for you? It's a card I wanted to include as a one or two-off for a long time (for shutting off SDT and DRS mostly) but never got arround to it.
Thanks for the feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dia_Bot
Regarding the Pithing Needle it's hard to say, really. I played against Deathrite Shamans only twice and didn't meet any SDT. Against Dark Maverick I didn't bring in the needles as I didn't know how many deathrites he ran, plus Massacre had them covered (was my reasoning). The one matchup where I did bring them in was against Shardless BUG. I got one in game 2 and it drew a force of will from my opponent. But that was very situational. He was on only 1 land. I had just Thoughtseized him, he brainstormed in response (and apparently hid his Deathrite on top) and once it had resolved he showed me a hand of: 2x Force of Will, 2x Ancestral Vision, 1x Hymn to Tourach, 1x Tarmogoyf... I took the hymn. I then passed the turn and he drew and played DRS. I drew a Pithing Needle and played it and he instant forced, pithing Vision.
I think I'll keep them in for now though.
Hey - the Primer is very cool, i'd Change 2 Minor things:
1st Elves can ne an Even MU depending on their Build. When they have Thorn and therapy and possible T2-3 kill it can nebe a very harsh MU.
2nd you should also explain the Tutor Chain wird Rituals, too (Cabal, infernal for Cabal, Cabal, infernal for Cabal, Cabal, Infernal/Burning wish for Tendrils)
I'm a little confused about what you're saying in that second point. Is that assuming you have 3+ Tutors in hand? If so, I don't think that would crop up enough to merit mention in a primer. I will some more under the Tutor section, though, including some tricks I forgot to mention.
100% keeper, all lands, PIF and petal are sure kill, you are very well set up to kill through Thalia... bad luck? happens... I lost with a no lander against a mull 4 into Mishras factory-go... 10 turns later... you know the story... no lands next 5 cards at least.... I wont regret such keep...Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
I somehow miss two storm on the PiF kill but with 15 lands, 4 petals and 4 probes still in the deck I would have kept it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I can't play this deck on Cockatrice anymore. :cry: I'm tilting harder than the Tower of Pisa in an earthquake. But, fear not, I'll still continue to update the primer as info becomes available. Take pride in the fact that we don't care about the TNN "menace" that is mining salt from the delicious tears of all the whiners out there! We'll be DTB again in no time!