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My hatred of Elves is beginning to transcend the bounds of reality. Goddammit I hate that matchup so much. There's really nothing else in the format where we're so heavily dependent on drawing incredibly specific, narrow hate. Even with Belcher, at least all of the various hate cards do something each game.
@Cambriel
Let me introduce you hate package:
MD(Punishing Fire Maverick):
-3 Punishing Fire,
-4 StP
-2 Decay's.
- Gaddock Teeg
- Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
- Chalice of the Void - it's also very useful vs Miracle where you side out Swords to Plowshares and bring CotV, running 1-2 Cavern of Souls should be fit MD, works also nice vs Storm
- Ethersworn Canonist - works well also vs Storm and Omnitell
- Sweepers - I used EE since it's very universal, you can also use some -1/-1 effects.
Play controlish - don't rush - keep opponent clean - assamble CotV, then Gaddock. Keep in check Glimpse with CotV or Canonist. Close route with Gaddock (NO for progenitus).
Here is my Top 8 list from the past weekend. We chopped Top 8. Apologies for taking so long....being an adult and working is a thing.
Dark Maverick :: Chris Scagnelli :: Jupiter Games - May 2015 (Top 8, seeded #4)
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands:22 + Dryad
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
SB:
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Gaddock Teeg #2
2 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod
1 Rest in Peace
1 Choke
1 Banishing Light
1 Enlightened Tutor
R1 / Steven / American UWR Delver / W
Game 1 I've played Steven before. I peg him on Miracles early (seeing 2x blue fetches and ponder). As the game progresses, I see bstorm, bolt, and eventually a taylor swiftspear. I get as low as 6 and stabilize off either Scooze or Kruphix. I start taking serious chunks of his life down while gaining. I win with the life totals looking 4 (he scoops) vs 9 (10-> 7 -> 6 -> 9).
Game 2 I play a textbook sequence in reaction to what I read a a greedy keep. He goes volcanic -> delver -> go. I T1 waste him. He blindflips delver revealing FoW. My hand is stacked and I have a series of plays that basically holds him landless as I take shots from the 3/2 insectile. I bait a daze on a GSZ for 0, then bait a FoW on thalia (pitching dig). I eventually rip his hand apart and swords delver. I start gathering serious momentum while he sits on swiftspear. I play conservative and drop a scooze + eat shit in the grave to grow fast. At some point he rough/tumbles...leaving me with scooze to his swiftspear. I play tight as assemble a small crew. I eventually just plow through his lines with Mom giving a big Scooze some pro-red.
*One of these games his miser Dak Faden stole my Jitte. Things almost got serious but I managed to have Moms to nerf damage + QPM to eliminate the jitte.
*Decay was relevant both games
R2 / Justin / Elves! / L
Game 1: I actually win. He mulls to 6 and I nuke his arbor with wasteland + ride thalia for a while. I played tight. He couldn't assemble an army because he kept having to dryad #2-bounce with Quirion block some of my team. Jitte on Thalia sealed things quick.
Game 2: I brought in 10 cards. I turn 1 E.tutor for Canonist. Drop Canonist turn 2 (yeaaa buddy). She gets abrupt decay'ed in the face. I manage to drop a natural Teeg in hand. He glimpse-clains the next turn. I scoop at 19 life because I have like 70 dmg coming through (chained so well he had Craterhoof and 10+ in hand).
Game 3: I did everything technically correct (we both discussed this after). I correctly drop teeg and containment priest. He does a game-ending glimpse chain on like turn 5. I kicked myself for not playing KotR earlier (had I sequenced differently she could have been active for 1 turn to wasteland a dual) but honestly, she wouldn't have done much. I never saw sweepers G2/3 and I die.
*I need to heed my earlier advice of running 5+ sweepers for elves. 4 doesn't cut it across 2 events against Justin.
R3 / Joe / Burn / W
Game 1: I pull a VERY lucky win. I get down to 6 and have enough momentum to hold Joe off. His own sulfuric vortex helped out a bunch.
Game 2: I misplay KotR setting up something big. He manages to fireblast me for exactly lethal the next turn. I am pissed at myself...plus it's fucking burn.
Game 3: Kruphix is a boss. I fall as low as 7 and manage to ramp back up to 10 for a nice safety net.
R4 / Big Philip / Grixis Delver with Pyromancer / W
Game 1: I pull out a win. Don't recall much but the lifetotals indicate a race. I jotted notes of counters I saw (some pitched to FoW): 3 forces, 3 dazes, and 1 stifle.
Game 2: He pulls early force-pitching stifle into force-pitching fire/ice while riding a delver. I manage to shoot the insectile down and drop some well-endowed lady knights. I believe this game I burned through my wastelands to hold him to 1 dual and 1 fetch. It was the smart move because this grixis deck needs a greedy manabase to operate/chain spells for pyro.
*Both games Decay was really relevant
R5 / Patrick / Burn / W
Game 1: I crush (finishing 11 life).
Game 2: I lose because he can exact-damage me after I try to stabilize with DRS. I misplayed by fetching (3 life -> 2 -> DRS to get me up to 4). He fireblasts for lethal without me having a way to respond.
Game 3: Utter revenge. I drop a land and pass. He goes lavamancer, go. I drop thalia and proceed to capitalize on his land-screw. At some point he gets the second land but I'm so far ahead. I win with 18 life.
*Thalia wins games
R6 / Evan / Miracles / ID
Evan has my number. No doubt he'd win this but we agree to just ID and forego the slim chance of not making top 8.
Top 8 - Chop
Notes:
-Decays in the main work right now. Props to @blackdiamonds for telling me to just run them and not think about it
-@blackdiamonds actually windmill-slaming choke was the funniest moment that day.
-Knight of the Reliquary <3. People talk trash about her "not being too good" pre-match only to gulp as they see she's upwards of a 5/5 and is coming after their mana
-Thalia, Kruphix, and Scooze were ridiculous. Pick 2 of them = some permutation of how I won games.
-I need to stop following the internet and go with my gut on 2x Scooze instead of 1x. It's unfair against delver. Shit, UWR delver nuked my entire board except him and still lost.
-Thalia is a fucking house. I almost ran Junk because I wasn't sure how effective she'd be that day. Boy did I get my answers. Running 3 is the right call if you run more spells like 2 decay and 3 equips. 4x I tend to see multiples, which are awkward.
-Batterskull was better than Light and Shadow but still not too impressive. Part of me is searching for that 3rd equipment. perhaps I'll go back to 2 jitte. Batterskull was almost always the "homerun" option I never needed. It helped in a burn match but I would argue light and shadow would have been equally valuable. If Dig Through Time weren't so damn popular, body and mind would be the #3 equipment. I may run body and mind regardless next event.
-E tutor board was kinda worthless. On-paper it's got merits but I would want those 5 slots back.
Thanks for the report Warden.
How was Garruk? I think you mentioned he was awesome earlier but how was he in the most recent tourney?
Have you considered Sigarda in place of a third equipment? Or how about a third Stoneforge in place of the third equipment? I currently run two stoneforge and three equipment (including SoLaS), but I often feel I want to draw stoneforge more often but don't want to play 3 stoneforge plus three equipment.
Also, my personal experience with e Tutor also suggests it isn't worth it. what do you think those five slots will return to?
Nice run Warden!
I like the list. I think your arguments for running 3 Thalia are valid (taxing equipments and redundancy), but I would have a hard time cutting one.
Regarding the sideboard - Was the lack of Thoughtsieze a meta-dependent choice? I see that you didn't face any combo, so guess it was the correct call :)
Garruk came in for the delver matchups but never hit the board. He is relevant because at worst, he's something to eat taylor swiftspear/DRS/delver. If he stays out, they can't answer him.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaDitka
@Sigarda...I don't like her in my hand. Batterskull > Sigarda for 5-drops IMHO. I may have to play her again to test her out.
@SFM...what you describe is 1/2 of what goes on in my head. I want 2.5 SFM and 2.5 equipment. 3:2 in either direction is awkward. I DO like games that go long and I win because of that 3rd equipment. Othertimes I just outright need something to push dorks through.
@e tutor....yeah, it wasn't hot but I won despite it.
@3 Thalia: I find Kruphix to be the 4th Thalia for irrational reasons. Maybe subconsciously I am looking at balancing the lesser tax effect with a 3cc creature. Idk. I think 3 is "juuuust enough". I still stand by 3x Thalia if you run more spells. I don't like Library or Decay costing 3cc under her, so I try to offset that as much as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benke
@0 Thoughtseize: There was reanimator, high tide, and omni-tell in the room. I'd rather go with e-tutor/canonist/choke/banishing on top of containment priest than a blanket thoughtseize. If the room had more "combo" like storm and post (using the combo term lightly), I'd consider running thoughtseize. I won and traded for therapies and that is also in contention for SB slots. I think the shot of x-for-1'ing the opponent twice could outweigh TS. Therapy is serious value I want in the deck.
It's worth trying. I've looked at Therapy several times and wondered if it wasn't worth a shot over Thoughtseize. There are so many games where you're really only worried about one specific card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Sorry E Tutor didn't work out. I'm still a fan personally, but it's matchup dependent for sure.
I'm thinking of dropping down to 3x Thalia same as you, mainly because Decay in the main ends up so expensive. I do like Courser, but I'm more tempted to try a second Teeg in the main. It's bad vs. our good matchups, but helps game 1 vs Elves and Miracles quite a bit.
This is the opposite of the truth. You do not run Cabal Therapy because of its potential to be a two-for-one. You run it based on the conditions of its casting. You have no dedicated sac outlet. You have no other way to peek at their hand. So, not only do you have a high probability of wiffing, but it ceases to be a two-for-one if you have to sacrifice something like a Stoneforge Mystic to get there. Blind casting a Cabal Therapy will never result in "Oh, my God, I hit all four Brainstorms!".Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambriel
I didn't say it would *work*, just that it's worth testing. :p Writing things off and not revisiting them in low stakes environments is a good way to end up with tunnel vision.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Therapy is a very aggressive disruption card, and is generally only in combo decks for a reason. When you're going to win that turn, naming whatever card stops you (usually Force) is fine whether you hit it or not. If you get it, great. If not, it's not there anyway, so go ahead and win. We can't match that, so Thoughtseize is probably better.
That being said, I'd be fine testing it against Belcher or Storm for the same reasons they use it on us. Pick apart whatever scares you. Thoughtseize is probably still better there because you're guaranteed to snag something, but Therapy might have a little upside vs. other decks. I could probably envision a scenario where trading a Dryad Arbor or a Mother of Runes was worth ripping something ugly. Good enough to make the 75? Unlikely, but I can't really say either way.
This is exactly the line of thought I'm thinking. All of what you say. I'm willing to test it, should it make logical sense running discard in my 75/76. I'm noticing a lot of opponents having redundancy in their hand. I'm actually not concerned with cantrips as much as I'm concerned about [double] something or removal spells in general. On turn 4/5/6, I'm finding myself wanting to just hold my opponent off cards before they match my threat with a sweeper or key piece of removal. The flashback is gravy. I agree with Cambriel....there are some caddy-corner cases where I'll gladly trade a dork for ensuring my opponent loses that key spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambriel
Except that ANT actually only cares about two opposing things in any given deck whereas ANT itself usually packs about fourteen different cards that can claim "cause of death". Even then, ANT by no means wants to call blind. It's only with especial reluctance that they do so in games two and three. You can't just call out Infernal Tutor or Show and Tell as Maverick and call it a day. Because even if what you call is in their hand, it may not be what they need. That is to say, what you want and what they need are two completely different things, and what they need is far, far more important.
Granting all that for the sake of argument, how does it not also apply to Thoughtseize? If the decks are redundant enough that snagging Show and Tell or Infernal Tutor isn't enough (by which I mean, gets you to turn 2 for Thalia), then how would any discard actually save you in that instance?Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Perhaps I've been playing it all wrong, but Thoughtseize is basically the *worst* sideboard card I've got. It's sole advantage is in being disruption we can play on turn 1 when all of our other taxing effects aren't relevant until a turn later when we're likely to be dead before we untap. Storm is not a bad match at all provided we survive long enough to land Thalia, Canonist, or Teeg. We have lots of turn 2 haymakers. It's getting there that sucks, and for that, it would seem to me both Thoughtseize and Therapy are equally useful. Name what kills you before you get your legs under you. Let the rest of your deck handle the rest of theirs.
I'm advocating a little strongly here for something I don't think is going to work that well, but that doesn't make it pointless to test.
Hello Maverick Players,
I am still piloting Punishing Dark Maverick with a good deal of success. Recently, Omnitell has made a big impact at my local game store, and I am choosing a few cards to adjust in my deck to improve my decks ability to fight what's been current in the top 8's.
The first card I am looking at for the main deck is Spirit of the Labyrinth. Most players seem to be playing blue decks with lots of extra cantrips to promote Dig Through Time. This card seems like a great way to slow decks down, and cards like Forked Bolt are a lot less played now that TC is banned.
The next thing I wanna discuss is REB/Pyroblast in the board. Currently I have been running 2 Pyroblast in the board, however, I am considering uping the number to 3 to deal with all the Blue decks. Is 3 overkill? I've looked at Punishing Maverick historically, and many players never opted for more than 2 Rebs in an Etutor package.
Last I wanna talk about Aven Mindcensor. This card was a staple in the deck before Thalia was printed, and many players have opted against this card recently. Has anyone tried this card recently? The card has bought me a turn or 2 against Omnitell, and it flys, so equiping it has been a great way to get around Elves or sometimes Mother of Ruins.
Good luck to those daring enough not to play Brainstorm right now!
Here is my current 75 with experimental build for current meta:
---Punishing Dark Maverick---
21 Creatures:
Mother of runes 4
Knight of the reliquary 4
Deathrite shaman 3
Spirit of the Labyrinth 2
Aven mindcensor 2
Gadock teeg 1
Scavenging ooze 1
Qasali pridemage 1
Noble hiarch 1
Birds of paradise 1
Dryad arbor 1
15 Non-Creature spells:
Green Sun's Zenith 4
Swords to plowshares 4
Punishing fire 4
Umezawa's jitte 2
Life from the loam 1
Lands 24
Forest 1
Plateau 1
Savanna 2
Taiga 2
Bayou 1
Grove of the burnwillows 3
Horizon canopy 1
Wasteland 3
Karakas 1
Wooded foothills 3
Windswept Heath 4
Thespian stage 1
Dark depths 1
E-turor board:
Pyroblast 2
Enlightened tutor 2
Choke 1
Etherswon canonist 1
Pithing needle 1
Phyrexian revoker 1
Null Rod 1
Tormods Crypt 1
Engineered explosives 1
Oblivion ring 1
Reclamation sage 1
Gadock teeg 1
Bajaku bog 1
Cabal therapy is only as good as the person casting it in non combo decks. If you're aware of what you need them not to have or have picked up clues to the composition of their hand then its great. If you are naming cards on a value basis its not going to be as good. The nature of the card leads to mixed and biased teating results its a pilot to pilot choice and well worth testing.
The problem is, and I'm going to continue using ANT as an easy example, that you're assuming their opening hand is wincon-or-bust, and that's not the case. After game one, they're no longer hoping for an early kill. They know you have hatebears, and they know it's realistic that you'll get to deploy them, and they incorporate this into however they plan on killing you. So, if you cast a Cabal Therapy naming Infernal Tutor and fail to hit, you don't get to rejoice. You basically just discarded a card and they're still going to happily cantrip and bounce or kill whatever hatebears get in their way. Thoughtseize takes their Brainstorm no matter what. It takes their Lion's Eye Diamond. It takes their Infernal Tutor. Cabal Therapy just takes whatever you randomly guess. You can't even honestly say you can make any educated guesses with Cabal Therapy considering the most you're ever going to see before you cast is a Ponder or a Cabal Therapy of their own. Or even a Brainstorm in response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambriel
Cabal Therapy is a flip of a coin that will at best have you coming out even. Thoughtseize always takes exactly what needs to be removed.
Cabal Therapy is only good in a deck like storm because you're calling out what will stop you from going off. Also, you get looks with probe and duress making it easier to hit. Grixis is good too, because you get a free flashback with Young Pyromancer, which also run other discard and probe main. Cabal Therapy is not good in Maverick. Either Thoughtseize or Duress (for heavy burn meta).
This isn't an either or debate, but more of a spectrum. First, look at the options.
Thoughtseize => Hits everything, but costs life
Duress => Hits everything but not creatures
Cabal Therapy => Hits everything, but has a chance to miss (but also has chance to hymn)
Thoughtseize hurts you, duress can't hit creatures. Cabal Therapy does both--but with a chance to miss.
What creature are you afraid of that losing 2 life is not worth it? And if it's not a creature--what card are you afraid of that the opponent has 2 in his hand?
ANTS uses Cabal Therapy because some of their problems (like Thalia) can't be hit by Duress and the 2 life matters a LOT. They also use Cabal Therapy in case the countermagic they're afraid of (usually FoW) is in multiples and they don't want to Thoughtseize the opponent only to still be unable to go off that turn.
If you are Maverick running Therapy (Which I don't disagree with, TBH, because we can easily use its flashback) you have to be aware of what it is you're trying to hit and if losing two life is too much to handle in that specific match-up.
That's pretty much the best breakdown I think anyone has provided. Thank you TMagpie.
Along those same lines... what creatures *are* we afraid of? More specifically since we're not running discard in the main deck, what creatures are we so afraid of that we would bring Thoughtseize in to counteract them? On first blush, it seems like that would be a very short list and, if so, a reasonable argument for Duress. For the usual suspects, you're going to snipe Show and tell or Sneak Attack first unless they have a backup way to cheat them into play. Something like Shardless Agent only exists in matchups where you're not going to bring discard in. The only thing that really springs to mind is Primeval Titan in 12-Post, but there are probably a few others. I doubt the overlap between legacy creature decks and decks where we would want discard effects is all that large, though.
Thoughtseize is there to combat combo. The only creature I can think of (besides like Griselbrand/Emerkul) is TNN. Since he is so hard to deal with once he hits the board. However, I still don't think it's right to board in thoughtseize in that matchup. Between Mother of Runes and SoFi he is very raceable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambriel
Agreed. I don't sweat TNN, I just find a way to race it. You don't see him all that much these days anyway since blue decks just have stronger things they can be doing like derping out Emrakul or Omniscience.Quote:
Originally Posted by DudeItsCorey
In a burn heavy meta (of which there are many these days), Duress might be the better choice. I feel like in most rooms I'm a lot more likely to sit down across from Price of Progress than Primeval Titan.