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1) Not drawing Bayou if you don't need green in the MBQuote:
Originally Posted by PopyMartins
2) Having more lands against decks with Wasteland/Stifle/Thalia/Thorn of Amethyst/etc.
So a maximum of 3 decks with Wastelands but plenty of decks where speedloss through colorblock matters? Easy choiceQuote:
Originally Posted by culby218
What's the advantage of running 13+1 lands instead of just 13 lands?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I agree about Cruise > Waste/Stifle/Spell Pierce, it's almost a dead card against us.
(Sorry for editing/posting only the quote/deleting, now I've noticed that Bryant already answered my question in the post above)
Wasn't Bryant who answered ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by PopyMartins
Edit: The ninja edit war started once more!
Ops, sorry Lem, haha posting from smartphones sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
So, the 14th land is really that important? Is it worth to burn a slot for it? In the past, TES always used 13 mb lands?
Not quite, for a fair amount of time it was 12 + 1 side-boarded land.Quote:
Originally Posted by PopyMartins
As for the importance of the 14th, for me it comes down to how heavily your list uses green. 13 land without Xantid Swarm has been fine for me.
There were 11, then 12, then 12+1, then 13, then 13+1 lands in the deck from what I remember from the threads history.Quote:
Originally Posted by PopyMartins
Dunno if "important" is the right word. It is an option to increase your lands in slower games and mana-denial matchups, while ensuring that you don't draw suboptimal lands in your game 1. Decide yourself, if you want to spare the SB slot or not for that. It's no "mistake" if you run the Bayou/Tropical main as your 13th land either.
What's up fella's!
The new Treasure Cruise meta with Izzet Delver seems like a very good one for TES. That's why me and my buddy will be rocking this deck on sunday in a local tournament.
Maindeck
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
3 Silence
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Mana Confluence
Sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Void Snare
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
The meta: Reanimator, Elves, BGx, Deathblade, SneakShow, Izzet Delver, Infect, Ant, Miracles.
So, Silence seems a little better in this meta. Also, I live in the same country as Bahamuth and he's right about the meta being very unpredictable. There used to be more Miracles and I think Ant has a better matchup against it, with having a better postboard game in form of a Grinding Station plan.
But that deck seemed to died down a little.
I disagree with that analysis as we still have the old problem of Silence' limitations to battle various angles of defense. Take Reanimator and BUG variants as examples which pair discard with FoW+Daze so the question "Silence them during their upkeep for a virtual Timewalk or during my turn to protect my own combo?" has no answer. The same is true for Deathblade which not only have the beforementioned Counter + Discard but a third angle of annoyance from the SB in form of hatebears. I sure don't have to talk about Counterbalance + FoW in terms of Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
So, for a very unpredictable metagame (and your storm opponents not being total idiots walking right into Silence), I would prefer the discard, not only because of all the shuffle-effects the Fetch/Dual manabase offers, but also because with discard there are no timing-mistakes possible and no additional IMS required. Atm, the only metagame I can see Silence shine in, is full of S&T, High Tide and the like.
Let me create a hyperbole for my prediction for the future of protection:
http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/...ps547bd106.jpg
Haha!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Okay, the problem I'm facing is I feel like I need an engine in the sideboard to wish for. Diminishing Returns is not ideal, but it's an engine. And that card is not playable without Silence.
So playing one Infernal Tutor sideboard is the option of choice for the majority of TES-pilots. However, I think Infernal Tutor is the best card to draw and BW->IT->AN is really expensive for a lifetotal-dependant engine. Treasure Cruise is not that great either as you will burn your wish and possible mana-spell for 3 random cards.
In short, I don't want to cut the 4th Tutor from the main-deck. And if I would I feel like playing an other business-spell in its place.
I'm more shocked about cutting Gemstones completely. You appear to be a big advocate of them, are you all in on the all fetch-duals base? I've contemplated it with shoving Bayou to the main to make room for a Chain of Vapor in the sideboard.
Dim.Ret. is not a solution with the current saturation of blue within the metagame and running gold-lands + Silences just to make the card playable isn't worth it for the issues I mentioned in terms of Silence. In regards to the SB engine there are enough options to chose from in form of TC, IT or PIF if EtW is simply not an option for various, possible reasons. I personally doubt you "need" a SB engine other than PIF game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
For game 2 & 3 I can switch out my 4th MB IT for my SB Duress to have the same MB configuration as Bryant on demand for longer games, but have more options for the belcher-mode in game 1 to overwhelm unprepared opponents and virtual 3 more Discard spells (access via BW) to overcome possible defense. It's all a matter of your mindset how you want to enter game 1. I cutted the TC in my SB because I rarely faced a situation/deck which is really prepared to handle the goblin ambush game 1 and I wanted to gain SB space. With Infernal + PIF in the board in many games 2 & 3, TC was nice but not neccessary.
Maybe this helped.
Is this directed @ me? Sorry, I'm a bit confused :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I'm running with 2 U.Sea, 2 Volcanic, 1 Bayou, 4 Misty, 4 Deltas atm. for testing and no SB land due to the absence of Wasteland
It was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I'll make the change and try it. I like the idea of adding a Chain of Vapor back in.
I've got a question about PiF. I've been playing ANT for a few months and just started goldfishing TES at home to check it out. I basically never find myself wishing for PiF, however. I know that ANT is a better PiF deck but it seems like some very unusual circumstances that you would actually want PiF in TES. I'm only seeing it as useful when you have multiple dark rituals + infernal + wish.
Can anyone enlighten me on how to identify the situation where PiF is the right choice?
Hello Everyone,
I am new to the forum and mounted the deck a little time. I am following all the discussions so I can better interact with the deck.
I hope to soon be able to post some of my contributions.
Thank you.
About 25% of the time - This is an Ad Nauseam deck. PIF is a back-up plan for hands with excessive Rite of Flames (Infernalling for additional copies) or Rituals/Probes, it's more of a mid-game card for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoorishIdol
Currently in the debate of leaving Swarm in, with the decline of SNT and Reanimater, I feel like it is no longer need it, I've been play testing heavily with the deck and I feel like it needs at least two chain of vapors in the sideboard and 1 grapeshot. Grapeshot can be handy in situations with the Young Pyromancer decks that I've found out can give us a hard time if they get the right hand. As for the grandprix I want to cut swarm, and change the list, chains can also help against the burn matchup for eidoln which is a huge problem for us. I know I would see that deck more than SNT at the grandprix. Also SNT is a rather expensive deck which is why it doesn't see much play. I feel the manabase is fine, i don't see the need for gemstones and silence seems too much to go on. I think the hand hate is more important as it gives us information where as silence is a hit or miss and leaves us guessing if they happen to counter silence.
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
This is where I'm at currently. Are you really not expecting any S&S or Reanimator? Did you see the SCG results? 3 Reanimator in top 16. People are catching on that in order to beat Cruise decks you need to be unfair, I'd keep them. Above is what I'm currently jamming, you could shave a swarm for a second Chain. I'm keeping two Gemstones for the moment as I want more actual green sources.
I just upped my karakas count for SCG Minneapolis. Did poorly but there was plenty of griselbrands running around. The larger the tournament the more likely it is that you'll face griselbrand decks in all honesty as people may not like playing them at locals but on the big stage they will sling griselbrand all day because of how powerful SnS and reanimator are. Right now they are even better as people are cutting down on permission and karakas isn't played that much in the field with basically just DnT, miracles, and UWR delverblade running it but public enemy number one (UR delver) running zero.
Agree with PiF being a midgame card in this deck. It's a card that we really, really want access to otherwise some games are stone unwinnable when ad nauseam doesn't cut it because of delver presenting a very fast clock as well as swiftspear and their burn spells. Certainly can't go back to IGG over it especially with the amount of blue in the room AND the fact that we have zero chant effects now. Cutting it for an additional chain of vapor or something is very wrong.
After Bryant already mentioned the important aspects of PIF, I just want to add remarks about PIF being useful as an engine if you suffer quick lifeloss, but need turns to setup your combo, rendering EtW useless to race your opponents ambush. It's also usefull for Comebacks against discard-heavy decks or for pure value plays like flashing back cantrips/discard midgame, just to flashback PIF itself later for the kill once you have enough Rituals/RoFs accumulated.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoorishIdol
Hmmmm ... since Leyline left most Sideboards, I'm not the biggest supported of Xantids in the SB, but I can not see S&T going anywhere, especially after the various S&T subtypes got a boost with DTT and are a valid deckchoice to sidestep the TC-wars and -hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree
I see no metagame development that justifies Grapeshots return to the SB as the card is mainly interresting to battle Gaddock Teeg. Other than the Legendary Kithkin, there is no hatebear that Grapeshot handles better than Massacre does, so unless I see Maverick return, there is no point for me to think about Grapeshot. The Desire to have CoV as a catch-all against hatebears of all kind is understandable.
I've decided for a 2/2 split on Swarm/Chain of Vapor. The reason mainly being I don't know how to find 5 slots against Reanimator/S&T.
-1 Mox, -1 ETW, -2 Ponder. -1? I think four slots should be enough and now we're also a little more well-rounded.