Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hey guys, I still don't have a TES deck, but I'm thinking of building one. Just wanna make some considerations about somethings that were brought up here.
I think UWr Delver is better in the new scenario than UR Delver. Before the last SCG open, I played in a tournament and watched both playing with the new TC decklists. UWr delver seems much better, as it has access to StP and SFM. IMO the new Pyromancer UR list is a good deck, I'm not denying it. I just think it was the first good decklist with TC that got into the spotlights. I wouldn't make all the considerations as if it was the deck to beat. But maybe I'm wrong.
I've been trying S&T with DTT and it seems reeeeeally poor in that deck. I don't think people will be playing it for more than once (until they realize it's not good there).
Just wanted to point that out. Anyways, I'm looking forward to proxying a TES list and to see how I do with this kind of deck. Definitely this thread has helped me a lot with the discussion to get an idea how to play this deck and it looks amazing. Also, the play of the TES player on the last SCG caught on camera "blind BSing" with LED mana and no cards in hand being able to find the pieces and combo out. That was amazing!
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThiefSlayer
Hey guys, I still don't have a TES deck, but I'm thinking of building one. Just wanna make some considerations about somethings that were brought up here.
I think UWr Delver is better in the new scenario than UR Delver. Before the last SCG open, I played in a tournament and watched both playing with the new TC decklists. UWr delver seems much better, as it has access to StP and SFM. IMO the new Pyromancer UR list is a good deck, I'm not denying it. I just think it was the first good decklist with TC that got into the spotlights. I wouldn't make all the considerations as if it was the deck to beat. But maybe I'm wrong.
It's the same problem why Miracles is a bad deck to run TC or DTT: These deck have far too much permanents and reactive cards to support DTT/TC. Too many people don't get that having cards like FoW, Daze, Plowshares, Councils Judgements, etc. sitting in hand or cards like SDT, SFM and Batterskull on the field do nothing to support Treasure Cruise unless your gameplan is that all your threats and permanents get countered anyways.
The best decks to support TC are those which burn through their cards as fast as possible without sitting on a pile of Plowshares against combo while Lightning Bolt could accelerate the clock and fuel TCs. The concept of aggressive cards to burn for value and to fill your graveyard quick is only found in Red or Black to supplement the blue cantrip core. Its a decision between running Bolts and Swiftspears for a blitz-aggro gameplan or Discard + DRS to battle combo/control while breaking the symmetry of the TC-race with DRS eating up your opponents grave and providing mana to fuel your cantrip-chains and TCs.
White Delver variants have only Plowshares, SFM and Hatebears as arguments, with neither of these cards supporting TC and SFM being an easy victim to the 6+ burn-spells of the UR variants.
Expect the value and presence of Tarmogoyf and SFM to vanish over the next months
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThiefSlayer
Just wanted to point that out. Anyways, I'm looking forward to proxying a TES list and to see how I do with this kind of deck. Definitely this thread has helped me a lot with the discussion to get an idea how to play this deck and it looks amazing. Also, the play of the TES player on the last SCG caught on camera "blind BSing" with LED mana and no cards in hand being able to find the pieces and combo out. That was amazing!
Would it be possible to post me a link and a timestamp to watch this? I don't have the time nor the interrest (Delver mirrors for hours) to watch these streams as a whole, but would want to review such particular matches.
Thx
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
It's the same problem why Miracles is a bad deck to run TC or DTT: These deck have far too much permanents and reactive cards to support DTT/TC. Too many people don't get that having cards like FoW, Daze, Plowshares, Councils Judgements, etc. sitting in hand or cards like SDT, SFM and Batterskull on the field do nothing to support Treasure Cruise unless your gameplan is that all your threats and permanents get countered anyways.
The best decks to support TC are those which burn through their cards as fast as possible without sitting on a pile of Plowshares against combo while Lightning Bolt could accelerate the clock and fuel TCs. The concept of aggressive cards to burn for value and to fill your graveyard quick is only found in Red or Black to supplement the blue cantrip core. Its a decision between running Bolts and Swiftspears for a blitz-aggro gameplan or Discard + DRS to battle combo/control while breaking the symmetry of the TC-race with DRS eating up your opponents grave and providing mana to fuel your cantrip-chains and TCs.
White Delver variants have only Plowshares, SFM and Hatebears as arguments, with neither of these cards supporting TC and SFM being an easy victim to the 6+ burn-spells of the UR variants.
Expect the value and presence of Tarmogoyf and SFM to vanish over the next months
Would it be possible to post me a link and a timestamp to watch this? I don't have the time nor the interrest (Delver mirrors for hours) to watch these streams as a whole, but would want to review such particular matches.
Thx
Sorry man, don't know how to find the matchup :/
but it was close to the top8, I guess around the 7 to 9th round
About the SFM deck with TC, I guess it's still good because UWr delver is more controlish than UR Delver, so it doesn't care too much that the game goes longer. Therefore, he gets some gas on the mid-late game with TC, which according to my friend was absolutely amazing! And also, he still plays a lot of cantrips, counters and removal so the graveyard doesn't take that long to get filled enough for a 6-7 delve. It runs less fetchlands, but it also runs wasteland so I guess it compensates.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThiefSlayer
Sorry man, don't know how to find the matchup :/
but it was close to the top8, I guess around the 7 to 9th round
About the SFM deck with TC, I guess it's still good because UWr delver is more controlish than UR Delver, so it doesn't care too much that the game goes longer. Therefore, he gets some gas on the mid-late game with TC, which according to my friend was absolutely amazing! And also, he still plays a lot of cantrips, counters and removal so the graveyard doesn't take that long to get filled enough for a 6-7 delve. It runs less fetchlands, but it also runs wasteland so I guess it compensates.
The deck isn't build to fill it's graveyard fast enough to fire off Treasure Cruise before turn 4 and builds up much less pressure on your life total than UR. Think about both points. I don't say that the deck is bad against storm, but I have my doubts about the decks Position in the metagame overall and in the Delver/TC-mirror
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Would it be possible to post me a link and a timestamp to watch this? I don't have the time nor the interrest (Delver mirrors for hours) to watch these streams as a whole, but would want to review such particular matches.
Thx
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/581695802
The play is somewhere around the 30:08:00 mark.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bob636
That was Edward Song I think was his name and he was playing ANT not TES. The play was very risky but it paid off in the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThiefSlayer
Sorry man, don't know how to find the matchup :/
but it was close to the top8, I guess around the 7 to 9th round
About the SFM deck with TC, I guess it's still good because UWr delver is more controlish than UR Delver, so it doesn't care too much that the game goes longer. Therefore, he gets some gas on the mid-late game with TC, which according to my friend was absolutely amazing! And also, he still plays a lot of cantrips, counters and removal so the graveyard doesn't take that long to get filled enough for a 6-7 delve. It runs less fetchlands, but it also runs wasteland so I guess it compensates.
My apologies I quoted the wrong one.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
culby218
That was Edward Song I think was his name and he was playing ANT not TES. The play was very risky but it paid off in the end.
Yeah you're right, he's on ANT. He ends up hitting a burning wish off of the brainstorm, so it's not exactly a stock ANT list either.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bob636
Yeah you're right, he's on ANT. He ends up hitting a burning wish off of the brainstorm, so it's not exactly a stock ANT list either.
I like that he put a spin on the deck. I just cringe everytime I see him on camera the way he alters his cards. He is a very very good player I got a chance to see him play live at GP Cincy.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
That's actually a TNT variant (Cabal Ritual + Wish) and going off here was more than fine as he had dozens of outs to hit with the Brainstorm. It was less spectacular in fact than it appeared on camera.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Could someone explain how to approach the UR delver matchup? I'm having some trouble with their super fast clock + mild disruption. Ad Naus usually becomes difficult after two turns, and goblins aren't great against Pyro and Swiftspear.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
laserstone
Could someone explain how to approach the UR delver matchup? I'm having some trouble with their super fast clock + mild disruption. Ad Naus usually becomes difficult after two turns, and goblins aren't great against Pyro and Swiftspear.
If they get you down fast enough to the point ad naus is not effective and you are unable to race with EtW you will need to set up a past in flames win.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
culby218
If they get you down fast enough to the point ad naus is not effective and you are unable to race with EtW you will need to set up a past in flames win.
Natural Spellchain does the job better in most cases. The UR Swiftspear + TC lists are light on disruption anyways, so sandbaggin spells and sculpting your hand for 2-3 turns and then blowing them out works out fine if they are on an aggressive start.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I'm putting the final touches on testing and deck list for scg columbus. I'm really thinking it's going to be like last time and be elves miracles and SnT. Lately there have been a lot of bug decks in my local meta. I have been flip flopping a lot.
EDIT: normal meta elves miracles SnT but it's the couple bug decks that have been winning the tournaments.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Natural Spellchain does the job better in most cases. The UR Swiftspear + TC lists are light on disruption anyways, so sandbaggin spells and sculpting your hand for 2-3 turns and then blowing them out works out fine if they are on an aggressive start.
Izzet Delver usually damages itself with probes and fetch, which makes the natural chain very accesible. I played 2 matches against it past tournament and beat them 3 times with a natural chain and once with Ad Nauseam.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hi,
I'm Eddie Song, the guy who white borders his decks and occasionally yolo's it on camera. I noticed I was mentioned here so I figured I'd finally make a Source account and post my list. Here it is:
15 lands
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 badlands
1 tropical island
1 island
1 swamp
4 scalding tarn
4 polluted delta
45 Spells
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
2 preordain
4 infernal tutor
2 burning wish
1 tendrils of agony
1 past in flames
1 ad nauseam
3 duress
3 cabal therapy
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond
15 Sideboard
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 pyroclasm
1 massacre
1 void snare
1 duress
2 xantid swarm
3 abrupt decay
1 chain of vapor
2 dread of night
As you can see, it's definitely closer to an ANT list. My friend actually designed the 2 burning wishes. Basically, my thought process is that by turn 3, you want to have seen exactly 1 tutor, 1-2 duress effects, 1-2 cantrips, 2-3 lands, and 3-4 fast mana (rituals, LED's). In order to have the necessary density of infernal tutors (one in every 10 cards), I'm basically playing 6.
Also, I personally believe all the sb cards are garbage besides 3 abrupt decay, 1 chain of vapor, 2-3 xantid swarm. I don't like extra chains (gotta have one though for ad nauseam), carpet of flowers sucks, dread of night doesn't stop ethersworn canonist, bob and young pyromancer are only situationally sweet (and only if they aren't prepared/don't play bolt), so why not add some burning wishes. That card also makes ad nauseam way better and gives you maindeck outs to random cards like gaddock teeg or leyline of sanctity.
For those who are interested in the math with my YOLO camera game 3, I was 31% to hit a tutor and win on the spot (to get EtW) and 31% to hit a ponder or a brainstorm, which gives me more outs. I think combined, I'm around 50% to win on the spot? Of course, none of that was going through my head. Basically, the judge said "You need to make decisions faster," which started the yolo-train.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
It seems like Silence is getting better in the meta again. TES has always been good against the blue decks with conditional stack interaction as their primary form of disruption.
So my questions to the thread:
- Is Silence good again?
- If so, is it still correct to play 4 Therapy before 4 Silence?
- Is Pyroblast sideboard still the correct call?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmutant
It seems like Silence is getting better in the meta again. TES has always been good against the blue decks with conditional stack interaction as their primary form of disruption.
So my questions to the thread:
- Is Silence good again?
- If so, is it still correct to play 4 Therapy before 4 Silence?
- Is Pyroblast sideboard still the correct call?
We had the topic lately (page 295-298 if I'm not mistaken). I don't see conditional counters like Sifle, Spell Snare, Envelop, etc in the metagame atm, but the opposite with UR Delvers rise and them dropping stuff like Stifle/Wasteland/Pierce. White and Black Delver variants are as annoying as before if you try to battle them with Silence, Greg.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Natural Spellchain does the job better in most cases. The UR Swiftspear + TC lists are light on disruption anyways, so sandbaggin spells and sculpting your hand for 2-3 turns and then blowing them out works out fine if they are on an aggressive start.
If a natural spell chain is a more common path to victory, is the Wish-ANT list the most viable currently? Being able to win with main deck PiF is a pleasure.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
itrytostorm
If a natural spell chain is a more common path to victory, is the Wish-ANT list the most viable currently? Being able to win with main deck PiF is a pleasure.
No, generating 7/8 storm midgame, isn't that hard. Choosing between TNT and TES is still a matter of preference I guess.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
itrytostorm
If a natural spell chain is a more common path to victory, is the Wish-ANT list the most viable currently? Being able to win with main deck PiF is a pleasure.
I don't see a reason you want to meddle with your manabase for wishes then. If I would play ANT these days (and I usually meddle without deck the same way I do with TES) I would look at MB Lightning Bolts or Multi-ToA rather than Wishes.
Due to UR Delvers lack of disruption, I see no Problem for TES in blitzing them with EtW or AN as well as chaining GPs and IT -> BW -> ToA.
Possibly TES can use these or other options as well if the matchup is a real problem. In addition to that: No one stops you from siding in the SB infernal + PIF for games 2 & 3 to mimic ANTs gameplan.
