[Deck] Dread Stalker

I'm glad everyone likes the deck. Ironically, I'm probably the one in the thread who has played it the least.

I don't think the deck is really Dreadstalker without Tombstalkers in it, but I'm not about to force BreathWeapon to make a new thread just because he swapped one card, so whatever. I do think the "would I play this card in Eva Green?" / "would I play this card in Thrash?" test should be applied to most potential inclusions -- the deck is basically a hybrid of Eva Green and Thrash with Dreadnoughts thrown in. If you wouldn't include the card in either of them (disregarding color constraints), that's a pretty good sign that it doesn't belong here either.

Benie: Thanks for posting your results. Did you also try testing against :b::g: Landstill and/or It's The Fear? At least their mana should be more vulnerable. UW Landstill is really hard to hate / knock off balance; it's probably the most all around solid deck in the format. Do you think Meddling Mage (likely naming Swords) would have helped, or would they just have killed it with some other removal and then Swordsed your Stalker anyways? I guess you could cut basics for Tropicals and... something, for Tarmogoyf, which would help the threat density quite a bit, but I don't have much idea what "something" could be, and Tarmogoyf isn't the most removal resistant creature around either (why, oh why, can't you play 6 Tombstalkers?) -- though granted, neither is Dreadnought, so it's worth a try. It is interesting that one of the few cards Eva Green and Thrash have in common is Tarmogoyf, so that at least is a good sign. (Again, the main problem is finding something to cut.)

What was your sideboard? I still have no clue what mine would be. I guess it's easier if I approach it from the angle of what I want to board out rather than how to solve the problems I'm likely to face -- in this case, Snuff Out seems like the obvious candidate against Landstill, and in its place could come something like Duress or Dark Confidant.

This decks threats are significantly faster than Thresh's and Eva Green's threats. In fact, the deck is so fast it's practically a combo deck.

Thresh (and sometimes Eva Green) won't win without answering it's opponent's threats.

This deck is different. As long as it follows through with it's gameplan, it will win faster than any noncombo deck out there. It can let opponents Tarmogoyfs and such go completely unanswered and still straight up race them.

Similarly thresh and Eva Green don't have to win asap. But that's what this deck is designed to do and do well.

That's why I don't think Goyf is ideal here. Unlike Stalker/Dreadnought, Goyf can be chump blocked for several turns. It's not a superfast win condition that can ignore the opponent's threatbase like Stalker/Dreadnought are.

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

The matchup where I really encountered problems was UWb Landstill( 1-2, 0-2, 2-1, 0-2) They just control the game in the early turns, if your opponent has FoW and StP it is really though. Sometimes I could screw them out of the game with Stifle+Wasteland, but there manabase is to solid too really stop them, opposed to the 4 color version.

Any tips for the control-matchup?

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Yes, cut 1 Snuff Out and 3 Wasteland from the mainlist and play 4 Duress.
Replace the 4th Wasteland with an Island or something.

That IMO is the optimal maindeck.

By playing 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Daze and 4 FoW, you can make sure you can resolve your Dreadnought through their FoW's and keep it in play in spite of their StPs.

I don't particularly fear landstill running that configuration.

Snuff Out on the other hand doesn't really help you resolve or protect your threats. It's there to take out opposing threats. But Dreadnought and Tombstalker is faster than every single threat that you will face from your opponent. So it's more important to play cards like Duress that can protect your threats and make sure they resolve, than have an out against opposing Goyfs.

20 lands is overkill. And Wasteland doesn't do much. You trade your land drop for theirs, that's it. It's a good card, but Duress is better as it can actually help you resolve, and helps protect your threats.

Take a page out of Thresh's manabase. Thresh runs 17-18 lands and no Wastelands. It runs cantrips and has too low a curve to run more than 18 lands. Same here. For thresh, there is just has too many better cards to run than Wasteland. It's the same for this deck.

8 discard is way, way too much, I think you're really over estimating your speed and consistency and just how much it matters in the Control and Aggro-Control match ups. You're better off by "feigning" speed than you are by weighing down the deck with discard, this deck isn't even close to combo with at best a ridiculously vulnerable turn 4 goldfish.

Counter Magic in whatever form is just a much better investment of that much deck space, I don't see a reason to use more than 4 Thought Seize like ever.

Edit: Even tho' I don't use it right now, saying Wasteland is bad in a Dreadnought shell is just ridiculous, the card supports both Dreadnought and Top and sets control back a turn on their Pernicious Deeds. The random wins you pull from Stifle + Wasteland and their power against control, which is your most difficult match, isn't something you dismiss that readily. Wasteland is more or less the single most powerful disruption piece against your worst match up, you really can't go that far wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Edit: Even tho' I don't use it right now, saying Wasteland is bad in a Dreadnought shell is just ridiculous, the card supports both Dreadnought and Top and sets control back a turn on their Pernicious Deeds. The random wins you pull from Stifle + Wasteland and their power against control, which is your most difficult match, isn't something you dismiss that readily. Wasteland is more or less the single most powerful disruption piece against your worst match up, you really can't go that far wrong with it.

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Very, very, very true. I don't know how often I used Wasteland to keep an opponent off green, so he couldn't cast that dreaded Krosan Grip. It's also great against the Fear( tested it today), it just steals the game when they are digging for Deed or EE.

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Originally Posted by SuckerPunch

This decks threats are significantly faster than Thresh's and Eva Green's threats. In fact, the deck is so fast it's practically a combo deck.

Thresh (and sometimes Eva Green) won't win without answering it's opponent's threats.

This deck is different. As long as it follows through with it's gameplan, it will win faster than any noncombo deck out there. It can let opponents Tarmogoyfs and such go completely unanswered and still straight up race them.

Similarly thresh and Eva Green don't have to win asap. But that's what this deck is designed to do and do well.

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What do you mean? we have almost the same disruption package as Thresh and only a little lighter thread density. Why would we want to win asap. If I have a single Stifle in my hand and a Dreadnought, Often enough I choose to Stifle an opponents fetch-land instead of playing a Dreadnought next turn.

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Originally Posted by SuckerPunch

Yes, cut 1 Snuff Out and 3 Wasteland from the mainlist and play 4 Duress.
Replace the 4th Wasteland with an Island or something.

That IMO is the optimal maindeck.

By playing 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Daze and 4 FoW, you can make sure you can resolve your Dreadnought through their FoW's and keep it in play in spite of their StPs.

I don't particularly fear landstill running that configuration.

Snuff Out on the other hand doesn't really help you resolve or protect your threats. It's there to take out opposing threats. But Dreadnought and Tombstalker is faster than every single threat that you will face from your opponent. So it's more important to play cards like Duress that can protect your threats and make sure they resolve, than have an out against opposing Goyfs.

20 lands is overkill. And Wasteland doesn't do much. You trade your land drop for theirs, that's it. It's a good card, but Duress is better as it can actually help you resolve, and helps protect your threats.

Take a page out of Thresh's manabase. Thresh runs 17-18 lands and no Wastelands. It runs cantrips and has too low a curve to run more than 18 lands. Same here. For thresh, there is just has too many better cards to run than Wasteland. It's the same for this deck.

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Alright, pair your disruption suit against Lands-Stills control suit.

4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Counterspell
2 Cunning Wish-> Return to Dust
4 Force of Will
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Stone

That is 20 cards that are problematic. With the decent manabase the deck runs( it can come to UUUWW without a non-basic) it will resolve a spell that stops you. You WANT to win the game early to stop Wrath of God, Humility, Cunning Wish and perhaps EE and Oblivion Stone. So you have to worry about Counterspell, Swords to Plowshare and Force of Will. Daze is quite useless when your opponent knows it's comming, so that is 12 against 11 spells. Still not that good. And you make quite some matchup weaker, because you can't Snuff Out Goyf anymore( very strong in the Thresh matchup.

On top of that your idea will make the The Fear and 4-color Landstill matchup thougher. Those decks both have a weak manabase that can be punished with Wasteland.

I tested against ITF and went 2-1 2-0 1-2. That's not bad. Most games I won of a Tombstalker( another reason to leave it MD). Dreadnought normally dealt 12 damage before my opponent could find a solution for it. In 4 off the games I won, I could screw my opponent's mana for long enough to kill him. The last game I won, was because my opponent kept a weak hand( going to 5 cards) and couldnt deal with Dreadnought. The games I lost where, when I couldn't find enough threads or my opponent resolved Counterbalance.

Next to that I tested against Monoblue control( I figured blue based control would be the worst matchup so I tested most of them) This was matchup was really bad. 1-2 1-2 1-2 2-1. Note that I won every game one. They can't do much against you. Just fetch basics and make sure you can protect Dreadnought against Keg. Almost all other games I lost against a resolved Chalice of the Void @ 1. That is such a hammer for this deck. After that they only have to deal with Tombstalker and Echoing Truth. There was some luck involved though for my opponent. Twice I Seize'd him turn 1 seeing no Chalice. The next turn he topdecked one. The last 2 matches where played against an deck without Chalice in the board. I could have won both, but made a mistake by not countering his Shackles. He had 4 Islands but didnt play a land that turn. He was at 3 and I would have beat him next turn. I let it resolve, he used Top, drew the land and stole my Stalker.

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Originally Posted by Illissius

I'm glad everyone likes the deck. Ironically, I'm probably the one in the thread who has played it the least.

I don't think the deck is really Dreadstalker without Tombstalkers in it, but I'm not about to force BreathWeapon to make a new thread just because he swapped one card, so whatever. I do think the "would I play this card in Eva Green?" / "would I play this card in Thrash?" test should be applied to most potential inclusions -- the deck is basically a hybrid of Eva Green and Thrash with Dreadnoughts thrown in. If you wouldn't include the card in either of them (disregarding color constraints), that's a pretty good sign that it doesn't belong here either.

Benie: Thanks for posting your results. Did you also try testing against :b::g: Landstill and/or It's The Fear? At least their mana should be more vulnerable. UW Landstill is really hard to hate / knock off balance; it's probably the most all around solid deck in the format. Do you think Meddling Mage (likely naming Swords) would have helped, or would they just have killed it with some other removal and then Swordsed your Stalker anyways? I guess you could cut basics for Tropicals and... something, for Tarmogoyf, which would help the threat density quite a bit, but I don't have much idea what "something" could be, and Tarmogoyf isn't the most removal resistant creature around either (why, oh why, can't you play 6 Tombstalkers?) -- though granted, neither is Dreadnought, so it's worth a try. It is interesting that one of the few cards Eva Green and Thrash have in common is Tarmogoyf, so that at least is a good sign. (Again, the main problem is finding something to cut.)

What was your sideboard? I still have no clue what mine would be. I guess it's easier if I approach it from the angle of what I want to board out rather than how to solve the problems I'm likely to face -- in this case, Snuff Out seems like the obvious candidate against Landstill, and in its place could come something like Duress or Dark Confidant.

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My SB was the one posted by Roodmistah:

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

My initial thoughts for a board:

4x BEB
3x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
2x Echoing Truth
4x Engineered Plague

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Boarding against UW landstill: -4 Snuff Out, -1 Wasteland, +3 Extirpate, +2 Pithing Needle.

Against MUC: -4 Snuff Out, -1 Wasteland, +3 Exirpate, +2 Echoing Truth.

Against ITF: -4 Snuff Out, +3 Extirpate, +1 Pithing Needle.

I forgot the matches I only tested once. I only remember against Goblins where I went -1 Wasteland,-2 Ponder, -1 Daze, +4 Engineered Plague. I won 2-1 without using a Plague, so not sure I want to keep them there. I probably also switch Echoing Truth for Wipe Away. Wipe Away can deal with Counterbalance, Chalice @ 1 against blue control and bounce Maze of Ith.

I was thinking of a splash for the SB, but can't decide wich color. White for MM, StP and Disenchant looks solid, but green for Goyf and Krosan Grip too. These are the SB I'm thinking about:

UB sideboard
3 Extirpate
4 BEB
3 Wipe Away
2 Needle
3 Dark Confidant

Don't know about the Needles, they haven't been really strong for me. But then again I haven't played against Survival jet.

UBg sideboard
4 Extirpate
3 BEB
2 Wipe Away
3 Krosan Grip
2 Snuff Out

MD changes
-2 Snuff Out
-2 Ponder
+4 Goyf

2 Snuff Out's to the SB. Wipe Away might become Echoing truth, now I have grips in the SB. 2 Snuff Out's out of the MD and Ponder( weakest slot in the deck) for Goyfs.

UBw sideboard
3 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
2 Armageddon
4 BEB
3 Seal of Cleansing

Md Changes
-4 Snuff Out
+4 Swords to Plowshare.

Nothing special here. Don't know about StP, it slows down my clock if I take big creatures. But it can take black creatures wich is a plus.

I'm also thinking of going down to 19 lands(-1 Swamp, -1 Flooded Strand,+1 Bloodstained Mire) but have no idea what to put in the final spot. A one-off in a deck without tutors isn't that great. It might become a Misdirection.

BB

I don't understand how your testing doesn't support my statement, that we should be be playing the opening list but with fewer land and snuff out to make room for 8 discard (4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize).

You say that you lost to Chalice on turn 2, Shackles, and main concerns against landstill were cards like StP, Counterspell etc.

Guess what, Duress and Thoughtseize help you in all of those situations.

I honestly think your results would have been more positive had you opted to make the change to more discard/disruption in place of some Snuff Out and Wasteland.

What reason is there to not play the cards that answer the cards that are giving this deck problems?


As for your sideboard choices, I think the following cards simply don't do enough for this deck well enough or for long enough...
Extripate
Engineered Plague
Echoing Truth

Two of my favorite cards for this deck are...
Lightning Greaves
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

They're a perfect fit in the board. Just when your opponents board in a ton of ways to target your creatures to kill, bounce, or steal them, you lead out with either card and make their targeted removal much harder to use. Lightning Greaves also speeds your clock up by a turn, letting you attack with Dreadnought/Tombstalker the same turn that you cast it.

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Originally Posted by SuckerPunch

I don't understand how your testing doesn't support my statement, that we should be be playing the opening list but with fewer land and snuff out to make room for 8 discard (4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize).

You say that you lost to Chalice on turn 2, Shackles, and main concerns against landstill were cards like StP, Counterspell etc.

Guess what, Duress and Thoughtseize help you in all of those situations.

I honestly think your results would have been more positive had you opted to make the change to more discard/disruption in place of some Snuff Out and Wasteland.

What reason is there to not play the cards that answer the cards that are giving this deck problems?

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The problem isn't the specific cards that disrupt your gameplan, the problem is the quantity. Of course can a Duress take a Chalice or Shackles, but the draw engines of those decks are that strong, they will draw more than you solutions than you can draw threads. The problem of those decks is, is they need alot mana to keep there draw engines running. Cards like Wasteland, Stifle, Hymn to Tourach and Sinkole(like Nightwolf said) keep an control player of balance. Duress never does that.

On top of that would you hurt about 8 matchups to be slightly better at 2? I wouldn't or my whole meta would be infested with those two decks.

Snuff Out can be removed I suppose, but it is nice to kill Goyfs, Grunts and Lackeys.

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Originally Posted by SuckerPunch

As for your sideboard choices, I think the following cards simply don't do enough for this deck well enough or for long enough...
Extripate
Engineered Plague
Echoing Truth

Two of my favorite cards for this deck are...
Lightning Greaves
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

They're a perfect fit in the board. Just when your opponents board in a ton of ways to target your creatures to kill, bounce, or steal them, you lead out with either card and make their targeted removal much harder to use. Lightning Greaves also speeds your clock up by a turn, letting you attack with Dreadnought/Tombstalker the same turn that you cast it.

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I agree with Plague and Truth. They are the worst cards in the board, and probably could be removed(although it depdends on the meta). Extirpate is your best bet against control. It can also punish weak mana bases. Seriously if I had to remove Snuff Out( wich I won't do) Extirpate would go to the MD. turn 1 Wasteland turn 2 Extirpate is very strong, so is it in combination with Thoughtseize. This card would be the last card I would remove from the SB.

As you suggestions, Kira is cute but quite bad. 3 mana to protect your creatures is quite slow, especially when you want to win the game early, as you want to do. Lightning Greaves is a nice option. The problem is you have to play it before Dread Stalker so your opponent knows about it. You still have to force through the creature and equip it. In wich matchups would you bring it in?

BB

what about Dimir Doppelganger for when Dreadnought goes to the grave (dont forget that you can use the ability without have to sac it because it becomes a copy of it) and you can still use the ability on your opponents stuff too making him double useful (especially against grave tech cards like ichorid-change to ich swing, change to something else.

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Originally Posted by USMC~PLAYER

what about Dimir Doppelganger for when Dreadnought goes to the grave (dont forget that you can use the ability without have to sac it because it becomes a copy of it) and you can still use the ability on your opponents stuff too making him double useful (especially against grave tech cards like ichorid-change to ich swing, change to something else.

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I doubt it, first - the dreadnought would have to be in the grave which is something you dont want. Then there is the mana intensity, 3 to cast and then another 3 to use next turn. This deck is very light on mana, with the most expensive spell costing 2. If you can invest 6 mana over 2 turns then its probably so late in the game that the game is gone. Atleast in my scenarios i the game went beyond, say, 6 turns the initial cheap disruption package wears off and the oponents board control elements become unbearable. Plus, do you really want another card that relies on the yard considering that g2 people will probably bring in yard hate due to tombstalker?

I would much rather play a card thats a threat on its own.

i had a version of the deck with it lets see if i can remember the list:

4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dimir Doppelganger
4 Vesuvan Shapeshifter
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize
4 Isochron Scepter
3 Counterspell
4 Orim's Chant
1 Enlightened Tutor

3 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
3 Tundra

SIDEBOAD:

3 Extirpate
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Vision Charm
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Leyline of Singularity
2 Guerrilla Tactics-or-Double Cleave

what i did was use isochron counterspell or isochron orim's chant (dont forget you CAN use the kicker off isochron chant making the lock)
thus holding off opponents for the big strike (3+ways to get Phyrexian out)

ways:

Phyrexian use stifle, trickbind

Phyrexian-phase out with vision charm

Phyrexian in play get a second with vesuvan shapeshifter

Phyrexian in yard get it with dimir doppelganger-this can get arround ensnaring bridge! huge upsets to some
with eventide-double cleave bridge doesnt look so threatening anymore.

this was a good deck i just dont have the money anymore to get the cards-most were proxied


White also gives you Enlightened Tutor so you can fetch the Dreadnought when you need it

and you can interchange some stuff (since the lock holds them- Followed Footsteps on dreadnought with isochron stifle/trickbind)

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Originally Posted by USMC~PLAYER

i had a version of the deck with it lets see if i can remember the list:

4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dimir Doppelganger
4 Vesuvan Shapeshifter
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize
4 Isochron Scepter
3 Counterspell
4 Orim's Chant
1 Enlightened Tutor

3 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
3 Tundra

SIDEBOAD:

3 Extirpate
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Vision Charm
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Leyline of Singularity
2 Guerrilla Tactics-or-Double Cleave

what i did was use isochron counterspell or isochron orim's chant (dont forget you CAN use the kicker off isochron chant making the lock)
thus holding off opponents for the big strike (3+ways to get Phyrexian out)

ways:

Phyrexian use stifle, trickbind

Phyrexian-phase out with vision charm

Phyrexian in play get a second with vesuvan shapeshifter

Phyrexian in yard get it with dimir doppelganger-this can get arround ensnaring bridge! huge upsets to some
with eventide-double cleave bridge doesnt look so threatening anymore.

this was a good deck i just dont have the money anymore to get the cards-most were proxied


White also gives you Enlightened Tutor so you can fetch the Dreadnought when you need it

and you can interchange some stuff (since the lock holds them- Followed Footsteps on dreadnought with isochron stifle/trickbind)

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I think i stopped reading when I saw this:
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
3 Tundra

Thats 9 lands.

I relaly hope that your memory failed you, because there is no synergy in that deck whatsoever.
4 dark rituals and two spells that use a single black mana?
Dont run pact of negation, please.
Why do you run 12 ways to get dreadnought in play when you only have 4 noughts? If you look at the lists above, they run 4 stifles and 4 vision charms (which also work with Tombstalker), there is no need for more than that.
Instead of fancy tricks with scepter you could use some card draw.

Just look at the lists above, and look at the thread with the white splash (the thread is called The Unstopable Dreadnought) and try to understand some of the decisions that went into the process of building the deck.

To revive the topic, here on deck check a list that got 3° place on a 29 man tourney (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19826.

We can notice Confidant and SDT, and Diabolic Edict instead of Snuff Out.

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Originally Posted by Samsunait

To revive the topic, here on deck check a list that got 3° place on a 29 man tourney (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19826.

We can notice Confidant and SDT, and Diabolic Edict instead of Snuff Out.

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Nice list, I'm going to test it.

Some notes before I have tested it:

6 fetches. I would play the max amount of fetches to make sure I can land a Tombstalker early.

Tomb of Urami, I get the point, an uncounterable win-condition. But with only 1 in play it's very random. On top of that you have to get to 5 mana. Might be a bit to late.

Dark Confidant. Although it's nice, With Stalekr and FoW you need to play Top alongside it, if you choose to play it main. I play it in the SB, so I can bring it in against matchups where my life total doesn't matter that much. Ponder is faster than Sensei to use in the early turns.

Edict over Snuff Out would probably works. Edict deals with untargetable and black creatures. It also doesn't loose life( wich is nice with Confidant.)

Duress over Thoughtseize, I assume it's the pricetag of Thoughtseize. The 2 life is worth the ability to nab creatures.

In short it looks like a slower(Sensei/Edict) controlisher(Dark Confidant) version of the deck.

BB

This is my build of Dreadstalker.

10 Fetchland
8 Land

4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

The major and significant difference is that it runs 12 cantrips rather than 9. This simulatnously increases your ability to draw into threats (as you run few threats), as well as cards like Misdirection, FoW and Daze that protects your threats.

MisD I think is very solid overall. The fact is, as long as the deck can keep either of our threats on the table, we can race most every other threat/deck. MisD helps protects those threats, and also helps you win counterwars to make sure those threats resolve in the first place.

I really truly honestly think this is the better approach.

If you want to run 12 cantrips might I suggest Predict above Portent?? I played the deck for a while now, and I run out of gas quite often... That's why I dropped Misdirection for Spell Snare. I'm trimming my list down to 18 lands too, but am not convinced yet. I am trying 3 Predicts now.

My list compared to the list in the opening post:

-2 lands( not sure wich one, for now I'm playing -1 Wasteland, -1 Underground Sea) and a Mire instead of a Strand.
-1 Thoughtseize

+3 Predict.

Testing results will follow.

BB

You're missing the point of cantripping. It's to find specific cards that you're looking for (combo pieces, threats, counters etc). So the deeper the cantrip digs, the better.

If you want card draw, why not opt to play Night's Whisper over Predict? Surely not having to time the Predict perfectly, or misfiring, is worth losing two life. Frankly, I think neither Predict nor Night's Whisper is good enough.

Predict works well in thresh because it also helps fill your yard very quickly, and works with counterbalance and top.

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

You're missing the point of cantripping. It's to find specific cards that you're looking for (combo pieces, threats, counters etc). So the deeper the cantrip digs, the better.

If you want card draw, why not opt to play Night's Whisper over Predict? Surely not having to time the Predict perfectly, or misfiring, is worth losing two life. Frankly, I think neither Predict nor Night's Whisper is good enough.

Predict works well in thresh because it also helps fill your yard very quickly, and works with counterbalance and top.

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A: Instant Speed > Sorcery Speed
B: Filling the yard works nice with Tombstalker
C: 12 Cantrips is overkill in my opinion

Predict works also nice with/against topdeck Tutors. I've tested some games and it was good. There is only 1 deck that can get away with playing 12 cantrips and that's Fetchland Tendrils. But there is 1 of the cantrips is a major combopiece.

The problem of this deck isn't finding the right pieces, but running out of gas to fast. To counter this you need a way to refill your hand. Predict is the cheapest way to do it, even if it's only a little bit. That's a reason I dropped Misdirection from my build. With so many 2 for 1's you get in topdeck mode quite fast. Cantrips only find a FoW without a card to pitch, where Predict gets you 2 cards.

BB

BB

I love the straight forward approach of your deck, Illissius.
With the list below I'm heading a slightly different direction with more pressure on the opponents manabase.
Lmk what you think of it?

4 Stalker
4 Nought

4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Force Spike-------------------I like this one here
2 Spellsnare
4 Stifle
3 V. Charm

2 Smother ---------------or Spellsnare#3, Sinkhole#4
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole---------------syncs with Forcespike/Daze/Stifle-Waste (& vice versa)

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Needle
3 Back to Basics
2 Smother?

Some thoughts I had on the list:
- is creature removal really neccessary in the main (or the side)?
- 1 or 2 Islands?
- Thoughtseize didnt make it cause I always want to at least bluff the turn 1 Stifle
- same goes for Ponder
-

hi all.. yes, im new to the forum, but nevertheless...

i've been playing around with a dreadstalker deck, much like the one Hanni posted in the dreaded fish list (an UB version of the one hes posted in here, more or less), and i must confess : wauw!

the deck is really strong, really really strong. what i found out is the thing to do, is - as you already pointed out more or less - pay no attention to what your opponent does (more or less, dont let him combo off or get a counterbalance on the table). apart from those, you can pretty much ignore him. just either, rip his hand apart from countermeasures to your big stick, or have a fow (and pref a daze) on hand and just get on with it.

i agree with Klaus that some focused distuption is good, but i found wastelands (and sinkholes etc) not to be the way to go. i often keep hands like "ponder, stifle, vision charm, dreadnought, duress, fetch, daze".
you never need more than one land, the deck digs so deep that you're bound to find more, and digging into a wasteland is really really dissapointing.
true its ok with the dreadnought hand i just posted, but with stalkers, you want all the colored mana you can get.

true that stifle and wastelands can be great, but i usually fetch for an underground sea first if i have a stifle in hand, and if he fetches, fine by me. just keep the stifle as defense against other wastelands. if he doesnt play a wasteland, you can brainstorm instead, which is a much stronger play in this deck, as you (obviously) want a stalker or a nought out by turn 4 at the latest.


what ive been playing around with is something in the like of :
//guys 11
4 dark confidant
4 Phryexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker

//stuff 32
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 duress
3 sensei's divining top
2 engineered explosives

//mana 17
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 bloodstained mire
2 Underground Sea
1 city of brass
2 Island
3 Swamp
1 academy ruins

this list is really strong, and the confidant is great at baiting. and if he doesnt bait the removal, he'll get you all the things you need.
this list - as Hanni will probably soon figure out - is pretty much the list he posted in the dreaded fish post, just with the confidants and a few minor changes (the city of brass is nice with engineered explosives, but really just there because i lack a 3rd underground sea.. :| )

however, after being redirected to this post by a friend of mine, i tried cutting out the confidants, which ofcourse makes the control matchup abit harder, but the deck is just something completely different.
with top and confidant gone, you dont get those hands where the optimal play is
land -> top -> go
land -> confidant -> go

the list i play now, is (well hanni inspired me, ok) very much alike hannis UBg list in here, except it has 4 duress and 3 spell snare in the thoughtseize slots.
i really like spell snare, ofcourse, it cant answer EE for 1, stp and the likes, but the ability to tak out an opponents counterbalance or chalice for 1 game 1 is just really strong. ofcourse, thoughtseize does this as well, but i must say, im really not impressed with anything at sorcery speed in the deck, i almost took out ponder and replaced it with opt or impulse for the sake of them being instant. but ofcourse, ponder > opt and 1cc > 2cc as always...
i went 2-3 at a 26man tourney, which wasnt quite what i had hoped for, but ichorid and a dragonstompy that draws well while you mull to 5 and cling on to hope isnt the best start ofcourse...

im not really sure what to do, but as BB, ill be testing predict in the deck, and if i can get the draw engine strong enough, id really like misdirection in the deck, as it would be a godsent. but ofcourse we all know that with nought+stifle/charm and fow, it would be ridiculous to try and squeeze another answer which is 2for1 (well, 2for2 sometimes) into the deck, as i find myself with 3 or less cards in hand at turn 4 more than often. but then again, perhaps a single misdirection could fit in? if anything, it can always be pitched to fow.
+ the ability to play a dreadnought, fetch in response to the trigger, and then misdirect the opponents stifle onto your dreadnought is just something ive been really really wanting to try for a long time..

ill be testing the deck some more tonight vs a few different decks, and see where it takes me, but by all means, dont let this thread die!
im hopelessly in love with the deck, and really want it to make it at least to the established forums as a proper archetype. it really deserves it:)

am i going where you have already gone and failed too many times?

/Mik

at mik:

Cut that City of Brass it's not fetchable, please? Add a Tundra or a Scrubland (even Godless Shrine would be better in that slot).

- Duress really should be Thoughtseize (and Confidant max. 3) especially with EE as your only creture removal.

- if you go down to 3 Stalkers (which is good when playing Bob) I don't see any reason to play a full set of Vision Charms, especially since you're not going the mana denial plan (no Wastelands). So Stifle is really only relevant for Nought and EE/Deed/land protection.

It's fine with me to run 3 Top MD and no CB, it should fill 3 slots in your side though.

Cheers,
Klaus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

- Thoughtseize didnt make it cause I always want to at least bluff the turn 1 Stifle
- same goes for Ponder

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About not playing Ponder and Thoughtseize, because of T1 Stifle. I think that's rather bad. If you have Stifle( or really need to bluff T1 Stifle) just don't play Thoughtseize/Ponder turn 1. Wait until turn 2, drop a second land and Ponder then. Ponder helps to find your creatures/lands and control and fills the yard for Tombstalker.

Might swap Thoughtseize for Spell Snare in my list though, just for testing.

On top of that you loose 8 1 CC sorceries beceause you want to be able to Stifle turn 1. But play 8 2CC sorceries so that you can't stifle on turn 2 and 3, hmm....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

- is creature removal really neccessary in the main (or the side)?

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I think it does, it deals with creaturebased combodecks( Painter Servant, breakfast). It also stops a turn 1 Lackey. Goblins can race you. Against Stompy it buys alot of turns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

- 1 or 2 Islands?

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My list 2, your list 1 is enough. You play alot of BB in the castingcost, so dropping an Island will probably work. The only problem is that you can't Daze of a Swamp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

2 Smother ---------------or Spellsnare#3, Sinkhole#4
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole---------------syncs with Forcespike/Daze/Stifle-Waste (& vice versa)

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How is the combination of discard and counters holding up. As I said before I never liked the combination. I'm always in dubio: Do I want to play discard( or Sinkhole for that matter) or keep the mana open for counters. Any comments?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miklion

i agree with Klaus that some focused distuption is good, but i found wastelands (and sinkholes etc) not to be the way to go. i often keep hands like "ponder, stifle, vision charm, dreadnought, duress, fetch, daze".
you never need more than one land, the deck digs so deep that you're bound to find more, and digging into a wasteland is really really dissapointing.
true its ok with the dreadnought hand i just posted, but with stalkers, you want all the colored mana you can get.

true that stifle and wastelands can be great, but i usually fetch for an underground sea first if i have a stifle in hand, and if he fetches, fine by me. just keep the stifle as defense against other wastelands. if he doesnt play a wasteland, you can brainstorm instead, which is a much stronger play in this deck, as you (obviously) want a stalker or a nought out by turn 4 at the latest.

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It looks alot like http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19826 minus 3 lands + 3 Ponder. There might be some ideas for you.

About your list.

Confidant's are quite good, but I think it's a metacall. I play them SB, because I don't see to many control decks here and need to race more often. Against control I bring them in, because my life-total doesn't matter anyway.

For City of Brass, wouldn't it be better to play another dual( say Tundra) wich you can fetch. gets the same result, with less damage.

How is 17 lands holding up. It looks like really pushing the limit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miklion

i agree with Klaus that some focused distuption is good, but i found wastelands (and sinkholes etc) not to be the way to go. i often keep hands like "ponder, stifle, vision charm, dreadnought, duress, fetch, daze".
you never need more than one land, the deck digs so deep that you're bound to find more, and digging into a wasteland is really really dissapointing.
true its ok with the dreadnought hand i just posted, but with stalkers, you want all the colored mana you can get.

true that stifle and wastelands can be great, but i usually fetch for an underground sea first if i have a stifle in hand, and if he fetches, fine by me. just keep the stifle as defense against other wastelands. if he doesnt play a wasteland, you can brainstorm instead, which is a much stronger play in this deck, as you (obviously) want a stalker or a nought out by turn 4 at the latest.

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Just wondering How would you play that land against a unkown opponent? I rarely fetch a turn 1 Underground Sea. Why would you do that? If you fetched a basic land, wasteland sit just dead in his hand.

Mana denial is great in matches like 4C Standstill, ITF and Threshold. Without the manadenial plan those matchups get quite worse. If your metagame lacks those decks, it's fine to drop them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miklion

the list i play now, is (well hanni inspired me, ok) very much alike hannis UBg list in here, except it has 4 duress and 3 spell snare in the thoughtseize slots.
i really like spell snare, ofcourse, it cant answer EE for 1, stp and the likes, but the ability to tak out an opponents counterbalance or chalice for 1 game 1 is just really strong. ofcourse, thoughtseize does this as well, but i must say, im really not impressed with anything at sorcery speed in the deck, i almost took out ponder and replaced it with opt or impulse for the sake of them being instant. but ofcourse, ponder > opt and 1cc > 2cc as always...

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You say Thoughtseize is bad but play Duress? Please explain.

On another note, can you post your SB? Do you play Counterbalance in it?


ATM this is my list. The first Tournament is in 2 weeks, so I still have some time to test.

Code:

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4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland

4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

3 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Predict

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Code:

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3 Extirpate
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Wipe Away
2 Needle
3 Dark Confidant

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I like Predict alot, but probably have alot of luck. Almost every time I was able to draw 2 cards. It also fucks topdeck tutors. I would like to here the testing of Miklion.

Next testing would be Top in the MD( instead of Ponder) with Counterbalance in the SB.

BB

EDIT: A Klaus beat me with posting.