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To be fair, this "VERY favorable" matchup you just described was against sub-optimal lists.
The less-than effective P.Deed and Hymns that just lead to you winning the above games are not run in Gearheart's list for the plethora of reasons he and others have given in the deck's thread.
I'm rather scared of Team America myself. Not tested it yet since we are busy testing against lists of Dreadstill which is played more here than Team America so far. I'm not that scared since it's a tempo based deck and with no card advantage you should be fine.
Glittering Wish and SDT don't compare. Glittering is a toolbox card, SDT is manupilation. It's always personal preference, I'm just here trying to convince people of the greatness of this card. Brainstorm is played for the manipulation for U, only good when combined with a shuffle effect, else you'll just see those two cards you put back again. SDT is Brainstorm on steroids. Once it lands it allows you to check the top3 anytime for just one colorless mana. Don't like it, shuffle. Need the card fast, switch.Quote:
Top is a personal preference. I think 2-3 is the right number but am currently happy with 2. Does it HAVE to be in the deck, no, but everytime it was in my opening hand or I drew into it I was always glad to see it. That spot could be Glittering Wish if you want it to be but IMOP that card is to slow. Top generates insane card guality and in the mid-late game with 11 shuffle effects in the deck you are guarnteed to draw some action spells rather than more garbage. It is also great early on, not totally necessary early on but it does help out.
I'll keep saying it, Rock is a deck with answers, versatile answers. SDT gets you the ones you want at the times you want them, filters out dead draws such as lands late game, Pernicious Deed against an empty board, Thoughtseize against an empty handed opponent. This card is all Rock could ever dream of, making the right parts come out at the right time. Also, with no card drawing you want to be sure that every card drawn is a good one. You illustrated it yourself in that report (thanks for that btw) that you had several dead draws and needed a topdeck. SDT got you there 2 turns faster, maybe you wouldn't even be in such a situation if you had one.
If his deck is similar to your list, copying it might be good. Even then I'd still question it and playtest with other numbers. Maybe his metagame is different, he plays different, he thinks different.Quote:
When looking at deckcheck.net I saw Sol Malka's extended Rock build and he ran 2 Tops, since he is the master and creator of B/G/x Rock I figured 2 was the right number!
Although I don't agree in Team America being a good match up, mainly since no testing has been done so far, I don't think a more optimal list matters that much. The deeds obviously came out of the sideboard and I think Hymn to Tourach hurts Rock more than Sinkhole will.Quote:
be fair, this "VERY favorable" matchup you just described was agianst sub-optimal lists.
The less-than effective P.Deed and Hymns that just lead to you winning the above games are not run in Gearheart's list for the plethora of reasons he and others have given in the deck's thread.
I read the entire Team America thread and I also find that Sinkhole > Hymn to Tourach and that P. Deed has no place in TA, not even in the sideboard. Against the Rock however that might be different and since that's the match up we are talking about it is what matters for our analysis.
...Including two copies of something that you eant to see consistently is retarded unless you are Japanese/a pro and have absurd luck.
Citanul, it was late here when I typed that, but if you don't understand, then you will probably continue to not understand.
Ah that kind of time ;).Quote:
Citanul, it was late here when I typed that, but if you don't understand, then you will probably continue to not understand
Seems I understood it since I thought you wanted to say that 2 is to few if you want to have it often without any deck manipulation.
There we go, yes.
If I have a deck with draw and other search, I will run two or one of something even, but in a deck where said card is pretty much the only form of search, two copies mean some games will go by without seeing it once(I will never bank on luck...ever).
Run more than two or run none imo. I follow the divergent school of Rock that Michael Pustilnik got rolling. Mikey P is after all the guy that adapted a block deck to 1.x and also played it wherever it was viable basically.
In a Rock style deck I am extremely concerned with consistence and if I can't run any tutors, I want three or four of something unless it is a land or a redundant card.
I am going to ignore Swing4Five's ignorant comments since Deed was in SB and SB is all meta-dependent and Hymns were a cost-substitute that were more effective in the matchup (thus making it more difficult) than pointless Sinkholes. Stick to threads about decks with blue in them, thanks.
@Mordel: You truly don't seem to get it. Sensei's Divining Top DOES NOT have to be in the deck. Personally I love the card in the deck but I don't HAVE to draw it. The whole deck is filled with good stuff and Top helps you find some of that but it IS NOT necessary. Its not a bad card and drawing into it is never bad but redundant multiples of Top can be. 3 would be as many as I would run but again, TOP IS NOT NECESSARY. It is hella good in the deck but you don't need it to win. So, we really need to aim the discussion at cards that actually matter in the deck. Like Spiritmonger, Doran, Hierarch, Ravenous Baloth, Correct # of Eternal Witness. Is 4x Pernicious Deed to many? Is 4x Vindicate to many? Those kinds of questions that actually apply to something rather than correct number of Tops (if any).
And Molder Slug ..... its ok I guess but it seems rather worthless unless you have a meta with lots of Affinity and Stax but with Deed these matchups are already really good. Its a decent card but I think there are just better alternatives. It could potentially be SB material though.
Why not add more deed and therapy or something then? Maybe two copies of the aforementioned crime//punishment?
I do understand what you are getting at, but if all the card is really offering is a nice little nugget to draw every so often I would opt for a more redundant suite of removal.
The advantage that I always associated with BGx midrange/disruption decks was absurd consistency and ability to deal with just about anything. Deed is awesome, but sometimes it can get nerfed by a counterbalance or a chalice. Crime//Punishment is an awesome solution to such an issue and two copies will mean that you are likely to have drawn it before a six mana COV becomes and issue and so forth.
I see what ur saying and I agree. I will test out 3 Tops but I really think 2 is the way to go. Next tournament I go to I will try to think of Crime/Punishment as the 3rd Top and see what seems better. Top just adds that little extra kick that this deck on occassion will need but I love the versatility of just 1x Crime/Punishment cause it adds extra redundancy against faster decks, ETW tokens, and 12/12s but I am not sure how good it would be in multiples. That is probably why I would prefer 2 Tops because it can fill either role by finding removal or threats, whatever may be necessary for the time. Its kind of an "unsure" card because you want those 2 slot to be good and Top is like a neutral choice.
I think SDT is like the best card u can get in The Rock. When you get to the midgame or even early,top is very nice. Combine that with some fetches/loam/other shuffle effects and you can find answers for everything.
With 1 fetch,SDT makes it possible to look at 6! cards,not bad...
This is not a tempo deck,so you will get in the midgame most of the games.
As for playing 2 tops, I personally think 2 is a very random number.
I've always played 3 of em,and that seems to work pretty good.
I'm also testing TA and it does make a decent chance against the rock,however the rock should win most of the games(atleast the build Citanul runs with Loam..) Hymn instead of sinkhole is NOT the way to go. The plan is to do a consistent t2 Sinkhole,together with the wasteland/stifle manascrewplan. This makes daze alot better,since your opponent wont acces to alot of mana.
This deck should loose if the rock stabalizes after t5-6 or something,cause vindicate/plow then become better.
If I was going to go all in with a BGx mid range/control deck, I would probably have to give tutors a shot and that they suck by my own crushing defeats because I am pretty attached to the idea of bullets in a deck that wants to get called The Rock.
That was probably my favorite thing about rock: having access to a bullet to destroy deck X. Maybe that is why I have an aversion to running SDT in decks that try to follow The Rock's strategy: I don't give a shit about finding cards that I run four of already, I want to find cards that are chosen for the match that I am in that all the cards I run three or four of had paved the way for and win. I'm just a nostalgic retard I guess.
Congratulation for your result !
As many have say, i really think two SDT is too low. 3 is the right number i guess, and sometime i'm also wondfering if i could squeeze another copie in the deck.
As for C/P, i think it is really a must in the BGW version. Being a mass removal and win condition help. Also, it pass through counterbalance easily.
Also, i think we don't need to run hierarch anymore. Most of nowaday threat are in the 0-2/3 range. In your version, i only see it to keep a tarmogoyf on the table, but to do this, you have to crack your deed AND crack your loxodon. Some time you'll have enought mana, sometime you won't. I really think that the upgrade version is kitchen finks. It is on color, recure himself after a deed, and chump like a pro in the matchup. Moreover, in the goblin matchup it come down one turn earlier, wich may be crucial to block a lethal pilly.
Also, i think you play too much land. 23 seem a bit high, i really think that with STE you can afford to drop to 22 land. 21 is fine, but sometime you'll get screwd, so yes 22 seems fine.
And finally, i wonder what you guys think of enforcer in the deck. It can reach threshold finelly, and being a flying threat help a lot. Moreover, it chump tombstalker like a pro. I guess i could also mention tombstalker, but it have no synergie with witness and volrath's stronghold.
SDT is amazing, it lets you run more answers, but be able to find your threats when you need to.
While drawing multiples can be annoying, it isn't anything to be worried about.
About the Veteran Explorer vs Sakura Tribe-Elder. It depends on the build. I think every rock player should test out both.
A lot of people tend to overextend once you give them the lands, making your deeds even better.
One thing I've always found with the rock is that I've never been able to deed soon enough, and explorer helps with that. The best turn two play is Explorer+dbl therapy- Especially if you thoughtseized turn one. Then you have two lands to dop a 'goyf, play top & use it, or if you're playing a lot of control- hymn.
Being able to play and blow deed for 2 on turn three can be huge.
Dont get me wrong though, Sakura Tribe Elder definitely has the advantage of there not being matchups you want to side him out. And there are a few matchups you want to side him out for sure.
Also, with the amount of discard and removal we play and the average deck in most metas only running 4-12 win conditions I've found that boarding in extirpate against said decks can make seemingly bad match ups incredibly easier.
I just took this list to a top 4 split at the Grand Prix Atlanta Legacy side event:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Loxodon Hierarch
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Doran, the Siege Tower
3x Spiritmonger
2x Eternal Witness
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Crime/Punishment
4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Savannah
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
SB
3x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Choke
4x Engineered Plague
There were around 26 people in it and it was the most varied metagame you could possibly think of. 3x Countersliver, 2x Belcher, Affinity, 4c Thresh, 2x Burn, 3x Goblins, Rock, BW Confidant, 2x Berserk Stompy, Dreadstill, Team America and a few others!!! It was nuts. I will give a short tournament report but I only played against 3 different decks in the 5 rounds, cut to top 8 tournament!
Round 1: Burn
game 1: I saw him shuffling and knew I was playing against Sligh or Burn so I got ready and kept a great opening hand with Goyf, Hierarch, Doran, and some lands. I fetch basics and kill him promptly with about 10 life to spare. Hierarch OWNS in this matchup!
game 2: I mull to 6 trying to find creature + Swords or Hierarch and kept a phenomenal hand of land, land, land, STE, Hierarch, Hierarch! I get burned in the face in the first 2 turns for 6 damage and then watch my dreams die as Sulfuric Vortex comes down on turn 3! That no life-gain part ... makes me lose, I scoop em' up and go to game 3.
game 3: Much better, I mull to 6 and see lands, Hierarch, StP, and Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize turn 1 gets Vortex. I draw into STE and he accelerates me into turn 3 Hierarch and that is pretty much the matchup. I have enough life to win easily VIA Hierarch and Doran!
Round 2: Countersliver
game 1: This matchup is actually really easy so long as your opponent's deck does not curve out perfectly like my opponent's did! He drops turn 1 vial and turn 2 Muscle Sliver. I know how fast this deck is and since I had Vindicate and Hierarch in hand I decided to throw Goyf into Daze (assuming he had it) and he did. Next turn all the Slivers fly and Vial goes up to 2 and I take some more damage! I can't play Hierarch because he doesn't race Slivers and can't block so I Vindicate Winged Sliver (so I can block next turn but he has the FoW for it! Hideous! He vials in another Sliver and starts to swing for 6. I cast Hierarch and pass the turn. He keeps Swinging and my Hierarch gets joined by yet another Hierarch! At this point I could actually race the Slivers so 1 Hierarch goes farming and I take more damage. I draw into a third Hierarch and cast it and swing in! He has another StP for my Hierarch but I gained a ridiculous amount of life so I have time to draw non-land cards! I am still getting rocked by 6 a turn and I get him to a point where I can actually win by attacking with Hierarch the sacking it and recurring it VIA Volrath's Stronghold! I do this for a little but soon realize I have to try and draw something, after a 4th sliver hits the board! I draw into Spiritmonger and Goyf and some lands and StP, cast them and Goyf gets Dazed (I cast them both in the same turn because I was forced to put pressure on him)!!!!! I get him down to 5 life and I am at 4 with Spiritmonger on the board and he has 2 Slivers (1 Muscle). He drew into his lone Hibernation Sliver and had the game won but since I was recurring Hierarch with Stronghold he wanted to try and bluff that he had FoW and then EOT vial in the winning Sliver after blocking Spiritmonger! he should have cast Hibernation Sliver and blocked, bounced it, and THEN Vialed it in. But instead he passes the turn and I recur Hierarch and swing with Spiritmonger he Vials in Hibernation Sliver and blocks then bounces and realizes the mistake! I am at 8 life and he can't possibly win! Next turn I swing into he creatures with both my dudes and he is forced to block at 3 life! YES!!! Barely pulled it out after he drew into 3 StP (last 1 avoived by sacking Hierarch), double Daze, FoW, and an insane curve!
game 2: A lot less epic. He does some weird stuff and I drop turn 2 Elder, turn 3 E Plague naming Slivers, turn 4 E Plague naming Slivers and he extends him hand! Go Engineered Plague!
Round 3: B/W/g Confidant with Goyf
Game 1: He mulls to 5 and gets stuck on Wastelands and does very fast to Doran and Hierarch!
game 2: 8 basic lands are the way to go!! And 23 is certainly not to many! I get 3x Sinkholed, 2x Vindicated, 3x Wastelanded and he dies to double STE and Goyf! After I remove his threats!
This deck really has so many answers its just crazy!
Round 4: ID
Round 5: ID
Top 8:
Round 6: Countersliver
game 1: I Thoughtseize his Crystalline and that stops him cold! Doran and Hierarch but him on an insane clock! And after I Swords his Muscle Sliver (he had 3-4 slivers in play) he is forced to start blocking and loses shortly after!
game 2: He mulls to 6 and gets stuck on 1 land and double vial for 3 turns! I decide to bait his counters with Deed and he FoWs it. I then drop E Plague on Slivers and follow that up with another E Plague on Slivers! I love that card! I can't draw threats but he is in such bad shape now it doesn't matter! I draw into Thoughtseize and take his lone K Grip (could not cast it still on 2 lands!) and then won shortly after with double Hierarch!
The top 4 decided to split the prize and play for the Force of Will which was donated by Super Games! I played against Burn and lost in a very close matchup. Game 3 I had it won. But, this is not a joke, he drew 12 action spells IN A ROW and managed to beat me. I really had the game won had I not drawn double Krosan Grip and more lands! It was bad luck but .. it happens.
Anyway here is how I sideboarded in the matchups and I found the best way to handle burn:
Against Burn: -3 Spiritmonger, -3 Deed, +3 Grip, +3 E Plague! E Plague stops Grim Lavamancer, Mogg Fanatics from ever damaging you, and Ball Lightning (if they run it). Look at it this way, its a hell of a lot better than Deed! And Grip if you expect Sulfuric Vortex or something similar. Deed is just to slow dealing with Vortex!
Against Countersliver: -3 Spiritmonger, -1 Vindicate, +4 E Plague. I was very tempted to put Choke in as well but it is not all that good against them. They have Vial and free counters and can easily aggro you out. Point is, Choke is more of a stall card for them rather than an answer. You would much rather draw into Goyfs and Deeds when you are in topdeck mode rather than Choke!
One final thing about the deck. I think the Crime/Punishment should be a 3rd Top. I love Crime/Punishment but there were a few games where I was really wanting to draw a Top and C/P would not have had much of an effect. As far as the SB goes, I am very dissatisfied with Leyline in the SB. I don't use it at all. I am tempted to put 3x Extirpate and a Relic in those 4 slots!
Grats on the result. Nice report, I also think that CounterSlivers is a good match up, to much removal for them to handle. They need damn good draws to win or plenty of Crystaline, man I hate that sliver.
Hey guys,
it's not that typical Rock, but I played this at the Dutch Legacy Championships and finished at 9th place. Some people asked me for the decklist and here it is:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Eterna Witness
2 Loxodon hierarch
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Savannah
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstaines Mire
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
Sideboard
3 Extirpate
3 Choke
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
So my score was 6:2 in Rounds.
I played against:
1st: Rock 1:0:1
2st: Loam 2:0
3rd: Sliver 2:1
4th: TES 0:2
5th: NQG/r 2:0
6th: Sliver 2:0
7th: team America 0:2
8th: Goyf Sligh 2:0
The best cards were Kitchen Finks and Choke. They've won me games. In the future, I don't know if I would run 4 Seizes and Therapys.But I expected many U/x decks. Sometimes, I boarded Therapys out, although it's very good with the finks. Test it out and you'll see.
Aw 9th, just missing top8 out of 140+ people. Nice result though and grats on that. Choke looks very solid, just let them tap out, Therapy or Thoughtseize a possible FoW and drop Choke. I'll probably run 4 Choke sideboard over 4 Duress in Mol next weekend. Kitchen Finks is a decent card. Not only the lifegain but the ability to be a 2 for 1 makes it fit for Rock decks.
What did you find of the Jotun Grunt's? I myself find them to be so good, a 4/4 for 2 mana and the upkeep cost is actually a benefit, especially against Loam or other graveyard decks. Gaddock Teeg, has he been usefull? Can only imagine you siding him in against TES. You lost that one so I doubt he was much of a help.
I'm also curious about the Team America match. What made you lose? Fast beats with disruption for your removal, land destruction combined with Stifles on your Fetchland?
Thanks for the gratulation. Ok, I'll tell some details:
1) The Grunt is a good card of course. But I think 2 are enough. You won't have him in the opening hand, becuase you can't cast him except you are playing against NQG or Loam.
2) Teeg is a god card. I boarded him against TES and Goyf Sligh. Against TES I lost the first game after I emptyd his hand with 2 Thoughtseize and 4 Therapys!!! In the second game, I hold a hand with:
Therapy, Thoughtseize, Teeg, Extirpate, Goyf, Land after taking a mulligan. I played my Bayou and he showedme the kombo in hand. My Chance was to draw a land during the next 2 turns but it failed.
I drew the land, when he already have done 12 EtW token. GG
I boarded him aso against sligh, because he is one more beater and he is an answer against Fireblast. I boarded out the discardspells.
3) Team America: In the first game, he played 3 Sinkholes and 1 Wasteland during his first 4 turns and stifled one Fetchie. Then, he cast a Tombstalker...
In the second game he had no Sinkhole, but all counter he needed for my Swords and Vindicates. He won the damagerace with one Tombstalker against my 3/4 Goyf and my Witness. When he killed me, he had 4 Lifepoints left!
Meybe I would change 1-3 discardspells (by putting them into the sideboard, replacing the Teegs) with f.e. Unearth. Unearth is a mighty card with all creatures I play except the both hierarch.
What defines a Rock deck. Is it the colors, or is it the presence of Pernicious Deed, even inspite of it's dyssynergy with solid threats like Goyfs and Doran that The Rock has access to. Or does any aggro control black based deck spashing white and green count as The Rock.
I'm just wondering because I've seen the below list played before and I'm wondering whether this deck qualifies as The Rock. It certainly seems like a faster more aggressive path to take the deck down.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
3 Doran, The Siege Tower
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate
2 Reanimate
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Personally, I think it should count. At the very least, Tombstalker deserves consideration in every single The Rock list out there.
The other reason I ask is that a person playing a Type 2 BWG Deck playing craploads of Planeswalkers accompanied with Wraths of God and Damnations and such took top 4 in a local tournament, even beating Landstill decks. Planeswalkers seem to have a lot of untapped potential, esp given their synergy with board sweepers. So that seems like a worthwhile direction to explore.
It was explained in the original topic, Hope it will be fixed soon :).
Rock was a Green/Black deck first using Deranged Hermit and Phyrexian Plaguelord. It also had hand control and some board control. Later the Hermit and Lord got removed and big creatures such as Spiritmonger where added.
What I think that defines a deck to be Rock is the following:
- Has Black and Green. White is a splash that not everyone runs.
- Is a board control deck.
- Has hand disruption.
- Runs big creatures and also utility creatures.
- Is a mid or late game deck.
If you look at Uri Peleg's deck at Worlds, that was a Rock deck. It ran hand disruption, big/utility creatures and some board control.
Planeswalkers seem to be good in Legacy, few decks can handle them. For Rock the obvious choices would be: Ajani, Garruk, Elspeth or Liliana Ves.Quote:
Planeswalkers seem to have a lot of untapped potential, esp given their synergy with board sweepers. So that seems like a worthwhile direction to explore.
Just like the Rock itself, these cards are Mid and/or late game cards. So if you would play them you should remove a card that is ment for these stages of the game.
There are only two that I would consider: Garruk or Ajani. Garruk seems like a win more card but the ability to keep pumping 3/3 or untapping to cast big spells attracts me. Ajani just sounds better to me because it can help in the bad match ups by gaining you those extra points of life or making your creatures bigger and able to attack+block thanks to the vigilance.
Yeah, I'm surprised that Planeswalkers aren't more popular in legacy.
In addition to the two you listed, Sarkdan Vol and that Planeswalker that's a one sided Armageddon are very strong too.
Combined with board sweepers like Deed and possibly Damnation/Wrath along with some StPs and other removal, and you have a very strong deck. Don't know if it could still be called The Rock though. I'll leave it to someone else to come up with the complete list.
As for the list I posted, I'm not so sure about The Rock's Deeds anymore. Spritmonger used to be good sure.
But now, we have Tarmogoyf, Doran, Mytic Enforcer and Tombstalker all of which are just as strong or stronger than Spiritmonger, but at a signfiicantly cheaper mana cost.
It seems like a shame to not run them because of Deed. And like I said, I see absoultely no reason why every Rock list shouldn't be playing Tombstalker atleast. It gets around Deed, and can be cast for very little mana usually.