At first I passed on the Diamonds because of the Deeds, but if you are cutting the Deeds they would work well. Damnation sounds like it would be a good replacement for deed.
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At first I passed on the Diamonds because of the Deeds, but if you are cutting the Deeds they would work well. Damnation sounds like it would be a good replacement for deed.
I don't think dropping the deeds altogether is the right choice. Combining them with Tombstalker and/or Garruk (Which I think every list should run) is usually devastating. Maybe you could try splitting between deed and damnation. However, already running death cloud, you have to wonder, how many sweepers do you want to run?
That is why we are deciding which sweeper to run in a smaller number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueskier
Part of me really wants to play 3 Deed, 3 Edict, 2 Damnation. That same part of me really wants to push a 3rd Damnation into the deck though, and try more Smallpox....which would probably cut Edict entirely.
Another part of me wants to commit suicide to spare itself from the insanity that is balancing the correct number of spot removal, mass removal, and aggressive removal (re: instant speed targeting), while not stepping on the toes of Death Cloud.
Most decks I play against have a small creature count, so Edict is great. You can just cast it in response to a lame dude being cast and kill whatever is on the board. If you happen to play against a tribal deck deed can help out 'till you find Death Cloud. Right now I have 3 Edict 2 Deed and 3 Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize is almost removal. On the play it can stop turn 1 Lackey, or wreck a elves or merfolk so Edict can do the rest.
This past weekend I went 3-0-1 and missed top 2 on tiebreakers.
Here is what I played:
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Bayou
3x Barren Moor
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Wasteland
5x Swamp
4x Forest
3x Terravore
3xTomb Stalker
3x Finks
4x STE
3x Raven's Crime
3x Thoughtseize
1x Worm Harvest
3x Death Cloud
3x Edict
2x Deed
4x Loam
2x Smallpox
SB:
4x COTV
3x Krosan Grip
3x Engineered Plague
3x Choke
2x Crypt
Round 1 Suicide Black (2-0):
Game 1: We both empty our hands quickly. He gets 2 Cursed Scroll down and pings me every turn. I find a Worm Harvest and beat down.
Game 2: He cant find removal for 2 Tomb Stalkers. I win.
Round 2 B/G manlands and Goyf (0-2)
Game 1: He keeps activating manlands to save Goyf from Edict. I never get enough mana to Harvest and stay alive.
Game 2: I he Wastelanded/Sinkholed 4 times, but this one is close. Eventually he wishes for a Tomb stalker that I cant block the turn before I would Kill him with worms.
Round 3 MUC (2-0)
Game 1: He steals a Finks with a Sower. I Deed and beat down with 2 Finks FTW.
Game 2: He counters some stuff. I dredge into Worm Harvest and win.
Round 4 Goyf Sligh (2-0)
Game 1: I chump a Figure of Destiny for 3 turns with STE's and empty his hand with Raven's crime. Eventually I find a Terravore and beat down.
Game 2: I Thoughtseize a Goyf, Deed a Goyf and edict a Goyf. Eventually I find a Terravore and win.
Things I learned. I want more cycling lands. I will either play seven or eight.
I felt like I never had enough time or mana for Deed. I always needed it to happen a turn sooner than it could. A replacement may be Crime // Punishment. This allows me to kill Things at 1 mana less. The downside is that some things might survive, and It won't ht tomb Stalker.
Edict Is nice, But I really like the extra effects from smallpox. This deck can afford to lose a land and usually doesn't have a creature out to sacrifice when I would need to kill an opposing creature.
I really wish I could get Strong Hold more often. This makes me think of a Living Wish Board. I could remove some big dudes from the main deck to use as wish targets, and make space for the Wishes. This also may be a terrible idea. Thoughts?
Planed Changes:
-1 Bayou, -1 Swamp
+1 Barren Moor, +1 Tranquil Thicket
-2 Deed, -3 Edict
+3 Crime//Punishment, +2 Smallpox
8 Cycling lands is probably going to be the way to go, I was considering that myself.
I suggest testing Damnation if you just need to blow up creatures. It is 4cc, but I didn't see a whole lot in that report suggesting all you needed to do was pop Deed for 1, so I assume 4 mana would have actually worked.
If you need to blow up more, Punishment might work out, but having to have all the mana on the same turn seems like a stretch (especially Tombstalkers). Maybe the Mox Diamonds should be tested again before an optimal choice can be made?
Why don't you splash ? In general, decks with Mox Diamond and/or Life from the Loam can EASILY play three or even four colors. Trust me on this...I've played 4c-Aggro Loam with hardly any difficulties, and I didn't even run STE. Wasteland is much less scary with ~30 mana sources and Loam, plus if they sac a Wasteland, Smallpox and Deathcloud just hit them harder.
Splashing would give you pretty good stuff for that deck.
White: Vindicate, Swords, maybe 'Geddon in the board.
Red: Burning Wish, Pyroclasm/Firespout in the board, Blasts in the board.
Blue: Intuition, Brainstorm, Fact or Fiction.
Speaking of which, I think some card digging in the form of Top would be very much needed. Without exaggeration, I'd say that any control deck not running blue needs at least three of those to avoid mana floods or useless cards in the mid- and lategame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
Intuition may be just what is needed. It can help make sure I can get a threat or Loam or Volrath's Stronghold. I like how it is very synergistic with the recursion elements in the deck. Would it be worth including one Eternal Witness to tutor up with Intuition?
I'm not sure how useful Top would be. Late game I am usually recurring loam, so I know what I am drawing...
Top doesn't seem to be as good here because it's much more focused on the early game control than Aggro Loam and Rock, which can land early threats and ride them out aggro-style. Terravore and Tombstalker require a bit of time to set up, so mana is probably going to be better spent on control elements than topdeck manipulation.
I like the concept of Intuition, but not sure if it's worth putting in for gimmicks. It'd be very hard to get the specific spell/land you wanted out of it in a pinch without putting Witness back in, or constantly going for the Loam/Stronghold/Creature play. That said, it'd probably be a minimum of 3 Intuition and 1 Witness having to come back in, which really means it's taking the slots of the control spells you'd want it for otherwise. It's also more than likely going to be a time walk for the opponent, just because you'll probably not have the mana to cast it and whatever you tutored for in the same turn.
That said, going for red and Burning Wish might be more acceptable, because the sideboard has more slots to work with than the maindeck at this point, and the chance that you are spending a turn to tutor means you are actually getting what you want out of it. It would also allow for more consistency with early Loam gimmicks, as you could go with the 3/1 plan.
I think it's turning the deck a little more into Rock/Aggro Loam hybrid than Death Cloud based control, but it might actually be worth it to not have to play catch up to aggro, as Burning Wish -> Pyroclasm requires less mana commitment and management than Damnation or Deed.
The Extended lists that ran Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime actually cut Death Cloud. I have not tested those lists, so I do not know the reason why, but it might be worth giving it a shot.
Looking over some Extended lists, it seems Crime//Punishment has replaced Death Cloud as a sweeper. Crime//Punishment does not seem that good in Legacy, but I would still try cutting Death Cloud to see if that could improve any matchups.
How about a new take. One thing that is really going to affect the deck is Leylines, and the thing is, this deck is not forced to run Loam. After looking at the extended versions, I think this deck can be very viable in the format, but none of them ran Loam. I personally would never run Loam without Burning Wish in the deck. And I have played enough Aggro Loam to tell you how fucking annoying it is drawing cycling lands and then throwing them into play after you just sweeped the board. Especially hands with 1 real land and 2-3 cyclers, and in a build without Mox Diamond, that will be annoying as hell.
The point is, why make the deck succeptible to so much hate cards when you don't have to be. Still run Loam, maybe 2 or so just because it is that good, but play kill sources that are not so reliant on the graveyard and will make the deck just sort of chuckle when the opponent opens with Leyline! New idea:
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker/Terravore
3x Deathcloud
4x Thoughtseize/Duress
3x Deed
3x Top
2x Life from the Loam
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Damnation
3x Snuff Out
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bayou
3x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Swamp
4x Forest
Smallpox can be VERY good, or it can really set you back and delay the game. Oftentimes it really does put you in a situation like the Pox decks, where you really aren't glad to cast the card in your hand since it may hinder you more. I love and really hate Raven's Crime. It can be good, but it is so reliant on Loam that I don't even want to play it. I tested the card out and really disliked it because, unlike what Death Cloud should be doing, it is either hit or miss, as opposed to something that is always going to be good by itself (Deed, Snuff Out, etc.).
I like Garruk can be very synergistic w/ Death Cloud. It can allow for bigger clouds with the untaping or a threat right after the cloud. Along the same lines, Bitterblossom could be another win condition which is not dependent on the yard and doesn't die to Cloud. However, the life loss may be too much with Death Cloud and Snuff Out.
I don't like Snuff Out in this deck. There is no need for the free spell because this deck doesn't mint baying for other removal like Smother, Diabolic Edict, or Terror. I think that one of the aforementioned removal spells would be better than Snuff Out.
I actually want a 4th Finks in the deck, that card is REALLY good. I decided to cut the Tombstalker/Terravore slot and try out Liliana Vess, its fucking awesome. Unreliant on the graveyard in every way, fetches out whatever you need at any time and avoids Counterbalance all day.
Snuff Out is in there to protect the Planeswalkers. There will be times where you just can't get enough creatures out to block/stall, and Snuff Out kills basically every relevant threat in the format with the except for Tombstalker (which is not so much a problem when you run Death Cloud). I am very tempted to take Loam out of the deck entirely and put in Putrefy/Smother/Edict in its place. Loam feels, a lot of the time, like win more. It usually isn't necessary and the additional removal would be pretty solid. Most likely I would play 2x Chainer's Edict in those spots or add in the 4th Finks and perhaps another Planeswalker or Damnation or even Kodama's Reach/Search for Tomorrow.
There are a lot of radically different ways to take this deck. I really don't want to go the Loam route since I am tired of having Tormod's Crypt/Relic and Leyline tear the deck apart until I find an answer. So far I really want to cut Loam entirely, but it is nice having it there since Wastelock just wins games by itself.
Also, Garruk is spectacular in this deck. Bitterblossom is very interesting. I like its synergy with Death Cloud, but the lifeloss could prove to much and it has no synergy with Pernicious Deed at all. If you were to play Bitterblossom the Finks count would certainly have to be 4 but I am not sure if that is enough since this deck does a lot of damage to itself.
Looking at the list of Pulp_Fiction and other posts, I guess you'll have to decide which direction the deck wants to take. A Rock-ish board control deck with lots of removal (in which Death Cloud wouldn't be so spectacular, I think) ? Or a land destruction deck in which the LD also acts as removal and discard (Smallpox, Death Cloud), which I think is the original idea behind the deck ?
In the second case, you just cannot run without Loam. It's THE card that breaks the symmetries of Smallpox and Death Cloud, and a great draw engine. You might even want Crucible for that, as well as Sinkhole. In the first case, Loam isn't needed much if you don't play any Smallpoxes.
@Pulp_Fiction: I wouldn't worry too much about Leyline, which I hardly see played anymore. Crypt/Relic DO have some effect versus you, but it's far from gamebreaking if they get rid of a Loam, more like a 1-for-1 or 1-for-2 trade. Death Cloud and Smallpox get more symmetric, but they still cost your opponent cards. Playing Aggro Loam a lot as well, I seldom hated the cycling lands, since playing 4 Mox and 20-21 "normal" lands, hands with more than one cycler that you need to play are rare.
I think the two cards aren't comparable at all. One destroys all permanents of one casting cost. The other one destroys creatures, lands, and cards in hand. Crime//Punishment is an ordinary sweeper which can be easily put into a deck not running many permanents, while Death Cloud needs cards that support it, like Loam. Crime//Punishment just serves as defense against troublesome permanents, while Death Cloud has a very gamebreaking effect if it resolves.Quote:
Looking over some Extended lists, it seems Crime//Punishment has replaced Death Cloud as a sweeper. Crime//Punishment does not seem that good in Legacy, but I would still try cutting Death Cloud to see if that could improve any matchups.
Death Cloud has to stay in this deck, or it might as well become a Rock variant or just step all the way into Aggro Loam territory. The card is the endgame here, if it resolves, you pretty much win.
And I still really hate the concept of Tarmogoyf in here. He's a fast beater that acts as a wall early on, and is on par or weaker than Tombstalker and Terravore in the late game. Not really worth the slots, in my opinion.
I still really like Garruk as a concept, and possibly Vess (Death Cloud -> mass reanimation anyone?). The problem here is that creatures need to not be able to come through, or there needs to be creatures that keep coming back/regenerate.
I'll check in again later and see what's going on, but for now there's still a ton of work needing to be done with the new comp.
Forgive my ignorance but everyone is talking about how this deck is awesomesauce. What are the non-favorable matchups for this archetype and what are the abysmal ones?
As I said in the first post TES is abysmal. I have played 4 matches and won only one game. The only other match that felt bad was a random deck with a lot of manlands that was not 43land.dec. I have not done extensive testing so that is all I know.
Can't beat a combo deck. Probably can't beat a regular Loam list that has Dreams, Vore, and Assault.
Planeswalkers that are only good post Death Cloud are pretty abysmal. The only one that's even close to justifiable is Garruk and he is still loose.
This weekend Conflux release events interfered with my weekly legacy events, so I did not get to test out the planeswalker version of the deck. I would love to hear from Pulp Fiction about the matchups for the deck. Also, Deathwing, If you have any testing data I would love to hear it. I am trying to get ready for a tournament in two weeks.