[Deck] Affinity

@ Elfrago

Quote:

---

Could you give us a few more insights on sideboarding? What do you usually side out?

---

I look at choosing what to side out as this question:

"what are the least important cards in the main against my opponent?"

(I know, I'm stating the obvious.)

The primer shows a decent structure of how I value each card (I tried to show the most valuable at the top, descending to the least valuable). Perhaps I should say that more explicitly in the primer. The generic answer is at the bottom of that list. Ornithopter, Myr Enforcer, Workers, and sometimes Frogmites are the cards I side out. It depends on the match and how many cards I need to side in. Examples:

If I'm playing against certain control decks, Ornithopters flying is less valuable, and so I'm often inclined to remove them for gamebreakers like Krosan Grip.

If I'm facing Deed, then I never take out Myr Enforcers.

I have dropped 1-2 MoE against copious amounts of mana denial, but I'm not convinced that is the correct play. If I had a 4th Vial in the main, I certainly wouldn't do this.

If I'm only siding Pithing Needles, it often substitutes for the Workers.




peace,
4eak

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4eak

Tormod vs Relic thing

---

Relic is actually the better card in many other non-affinity decks, so I wanted to give it a shot.

I don't think our creatures are THAT bigger than an average tarmogoyf (which is, usually a 4/5 or 5/6 because of our artifacts). Our threats that trump goyf are Cranial Plating, MoE, a Ravager that eated 5 artifacts and a Enforcer with 1/2 modular counters.

What I found in my testing is that relic is better vs Aggro-Loam and Goyf/Tombstalker decks, where crypt is better against Combo and Ichorid.

I'm currently opting for a 2/2 split, that can be actually better against Ichorid's needles.

The 1/2 mana is quite costy for the deck, but often is worth it for the ability of constantly hitting the graveyard, making it impossible to reach 5-6 cards for TS, and making Loam much less powerful. The "draw a card, kill a Goyf/Vore" ability is nice too, cause 1 out of 3 times that card is a bomb (Ravager, Disciple, MoE, Plating).

When we're siding in graveyard hate against something that is not Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast, there's a lot of probability that is some sort of control or Aggrocontrol deck. Since we are post-SB, we shouldn't expect the game to last 4 turns, it will probably last more. The more the game progresses, the higher are the probabilities of Relic being the better card.

One thing that I don't like i Relic is that it conflicts with Chalice@1, which we (or the opponent) might play.

I guess that in the end, the graveyard hate of choice depends on the metagame, as always.


By the way, I do think that the list published on the primer IS the current list for affinity decks, with maybe just some minor tweaks (1-3 slots) to talk about.

I'm currently running that list with +1 Tree of Tales -1 Rainbow Land (but still not sure about this) and -1 Enforcer, +1 Vial (in a heavy Counter meta, vial becomes a threat on its own).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GreenOne

I don't think our creatures are THAT bigger than an average tarmogoyf (which is, usually a 4/5 or 5/6 because of our artifacts). Our threats that trump goyf are Cranial Plating, MoE, a Ravager that eated 5 artifacts and a Enforcer with 1/2 modular counters.

What I found in my testing is that relic is better vs Aggro-Loam and Goyf/Tombstalker decks, where crypt is better against Combo and Ichorid.

---

Yeah, this is basically what I was thinking. And since the combo matchup is practically unwinnable anyways (as the primer clearly emphasizes), it seems to make more sense to focus on wrecking Goyfs. Against those decks, Relic makes all your creatures unblockable (blocking with Goyf against an active Relic seems pretty dumb) and/or slows down their clock considerably. It's yet another bomb that needs to be answered by your opponent, otherwise you'll win.

4eak, you do make a good point about its cost, and I can't really argue against that. I just think that it's worth consideration alongside Crypt as a sideboard staple, due to how much it swings some matchups (namely, most decks running any green).

Crypt's GY effect is just as powerful as Relic's in these cases:

• Goose
• Ichorid
• IGG
• Loam
• Crucible of Worlds
• Tombstalker
• Mystic Enforcer
• Intuition Engines -- Witness/Academy Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold/Gigapede/etc.
• (and a ton others, Replenish, Squee, Lavamancer, Therapy, etc.)

Relic's GY effect is stronger than Crypt's in these cases:

• Goyf
• Terravore
• Reanimate

In most cases, you're paying 2 mana to draw 1 card and shrink Goyfs even further than Crypt. That mana is a heavy price for this deck; I often set myself back a whole turn playing Relic instead of Crypt, rarely to set my opponent back a whole turn or more where Crypt wouldn't.

On the other hand, playing Crypt means that 2 mana is spent playing the aggro role, without much difference in effect from Relic. I'm more interested in mana efficiency than a cantrip for an aggro deck. If relic cost 0 to put into play, and 1 to activate, then it would be different. I'm desperate to draw cards, but not for the cost of 2 mana.

Yes, the longer a match goes, the less Affinity is concerned with mana inefficiency, and the more concerned the deck will be about the draw effect of Relic. But, the longer a match goes, the more likely Affinity is going to lose anyways. That is the point of the aggro deck--win the game while mana efficiency actually matters. I want to sideboard cards that enable me to continue winning early, and Crypt's mana efficiency is very important factor.

In my experience, Goyf alone is not a good enough reason to play Relic over Crypt for this deck. My GY usually doesn't many cards in it to grow a Goyf, and a good portion of the matches where I play against Goyf, I'd rather have a creature than GY hate in the first place. Cranial Plating, Ravager, MoE, and Vial all improve creatures by large margins (while they don't improve GY hate), and usually playing the aggro role with a swarm has performed better than slowing the clock down to slow their Goyf down.

Aggro-Loam is the only match where I believe Relic is hands down stronger than Crypt for Affinity. If you face a lot aggro-loam, then clearly Relic is a better choice. For most metagames, I think Crypt is better.

Relic isn't a bad card, I just don't consider it a staple in Affinity. Admittedly, there isn't a substantial difference between Relic and Crypt--they very similar cards in the broad scheme of things.

I think GreenOne is correct. This is a metagame specific question. The primer had to offer some generalized advice, so that is why I phrased it like I did. Outside of Aggro-Loam, it takes a lot more thought and knowledge about a specific metagame to choose Relic over Crypt. I'm not saying there aren't cases where you should choose Relic over Crypt, but for most players and metagames, Crypt is a better call in general.

I also have to admit that GreenOne's 2/2 split is intriguing. The needle concern has come up a few times.




peace,
4eak

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4eak

Crypt's GY effect is just as powerful as Relic's in these cases:

• Goose
• Ichorid
• IGG
• Loam
• Crucible of Worlds
• Tombstalker
• Mystic Enforcer
• Intuition Engines -- Witness/Academy Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold/Gigapede/etc.
• (and a ton others, Replenish, Squee, Lavamancer, Therapy, etc.)

---

I agree on anything but this, each card has pros and cons, and rarely are on par:

Here's my list:
- Goose: Relic continuous effect of removing one card a turn is better in the long run, where the opponent could rech threshold again. Crypt is better in the first 3 turns. Keep in mind that every deck packing Goose is packing Goyf too. I'd say Relic is better here.
- Ichorid: the split might be better for opposing Needle. Relic is better against the draw-discard-dredge plan (that sucks against us anyway), and worse against everything else. Crypt is definetly better unless the opponent sided in chalices for some reason.
- IGG: Matchups where IGG is involved need our speed, and CA is really nothing we can take advantage on. It probably won't matter in the matchup, but Crypt is better.
- Loam: the continuous effect of relic shrinks their engine and the sacrifice ability of relic kills 1/3 of their creatures and makes 0/1s of another 1/3. Relic is plain better.
- Crucible of Worlds: the continuous effect of relic is definetly better: they can't any more recur fetches and manlands and city of traitors for the rest of the game. Crypt might be better against 'Geddon, but overall Relic is better.
- Tombstalker: Decks playing TS are usually putting a good amount of cards in graveyard per turn. Things like fetches, discard, cantrips, free countermagic and the like are filling the graveyard fast, so it's easier to recover after a crypt. Their disruptive strategy makes the game goes longer, enphasizing (sp?) the role of CA in the matchup. A good number of TS decks are packing goyf too. Relic is better here.
- Mystic Enforcer: same as goyf, but comes down much later. Getting to 4 lands is not as easy as it seems in a deck packing 18, so this comes down on turn 5-6 or even later. The late game favors Relic as does the fact that every deck packing Enforcer is packing goyf, but at this stage of the game their hand is so depleted they're going to wait a bit to rebuild threshold. So I guess relic is slightly better.
- Intuition: Opponent is usually playing intuition in our end step, so he's going to take advantage of the engine at least one turn if we have a relic and we're tapped out. Crypt is better.
- Other stuff: this includes Therapy, Replenish, Witness, Lavamancer, Gigapede, Eternal Dragon. The continuus depleting of the graveyard of Relic is making a good job. the opponent has a reduced amount of choice with witness, is probably going to lose the Eternal Dragon/Gigapede if he doesn't take it back early, lavamancer has a lot less food, therapy might be the only card in the grave. In this cases Relic is better. In all other cases the cards are on par. Crypt might be better when the games last less, that means against Lavamancer (but are we seriously siding crypts against it? And if so, aren't we siding grave hate because this deck is packing goyf/grunts too?), and Relic whan the game goes longer. I'd say Relic is better here. Replenish is a different thing: we want to be fast against Enchantress, but crypt doesn't work if the opponent has a Confinament in play. Enchantress basically wins against us with Confinament, so Replenish in this case might help mantaining it, but it's a narrow case. I'd say crypt is better anyway against Replenish.

Even though relic is better on it's own against most of those decks doesn't mean it works best with affinity, which is the point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pltnmngl

Even though relic is better on it's own against most of those decks doesn't mean it works best with affinity, which is the point.

---

You're right.
It strongly depends on the lenght of the game IMO. Since there is literally no deck that lets us goldfish, we're supposed to reach turn 6, where Relic is overall better: mana concern doesn't apply anymore, drawing multiples is welcome, and the additional abilities (remove a card a turn and draw a card) are far superior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4eak

Etherium Sculptor— The card is expensive for what you get in aggro-combo affinity. It does too little too late. I like the card, but it just doesn't add enough to the deck for the slot. This deck already has better ways to cheat mana at this point. The sculptor is very nice in affinity decks that play, well...fewer affinity cards, weaker mana-bases, and higher mana-curves. That card really belongs in aggro-control affinity decks, but it has no place in Vial Affinity.

---

I beg to differ. I'm just theorycrafting here, but hear* me out here:

Quote:

---

CardName: Etherium Sculptor
Cost: 1U
Type: Artifact Creature - Vedalken Artificer
Pow/Tgh: 1/2
Rules Text: Artifact spells you play cost 1 less to play.

---

Cards which look like they benefit from Etherium Sculptor's ability:

• Cranial Plating
• Master of Etherium
• Myr Enforcer

Now let's compare casting him to that of Frogmite, which has a very similar body...

1. Cranial Plating:
   Frogmite is better because the 2 mana spent on Sculptor could have been used for Cranial instead.
   
   
2. Master of Etherium:
   Frogmite must tip his hat to Sculptor and make his graceful exit.
   
   
3. Myr Enforcer:
   I believe Sculptor takes the crown for this one as well.
   
   
4. Aether Vial:
   Yes, I know this is a minor point but Sculptor can actually be vialled in when need arise (for instance you're stuck on 1 mana with a Cranial Plating in hand).

I think everyone can agree that those are at least 8 cardslots which would benefit from Sculptor's inclusion.


Dr. Etherium Sculptor, would you please step forward for the verdict.

There is the issue of redundancy with you, just like with Aether Vial or Springleaf Drum.
You are slightly more demanding on the mana payroll side.
On the other hand, you have shown motivation and dedication to contribute to the greater good.
That is why I would suggest replacing 2 Frogmites with Etherium Sculptors. *murmurs rising followed by a shrill bonejarring shriek*
ORDER IN THE COURT! ORDER. IN THE. COURT! One more such outburst, Mr. Frogmite, and there shall be consequences!

Dismissed.


*see what I did there? Yes I'm bored :/

Also, thanks a bunch for the awesome primer!

@ Nazgath

Quote:

---

I beg to differ. I'm just theorycrafting here, but hear* me out here:

---

I think we all know which cards are affected by Sculptor. The problem is that he can only come into play when you already had the mana to cast the cards which would benefit from Sculptor (most of the time), and you were likely sitting in top deck mode or close to it. If you have the 1U to cast Sculptor, then you should already be very close to emptying your hand in the first place.

If Sculptor was a 1cc 1/1 that did the same thing, then his mana acceleration would be playable and more relevant on the turns that mana acceleration really matters.

Sculptor does too little too late.

Quote:

---

I would suggest replacing 2 Frogmites with Etherium Sculptors.

---

Test away. When you open with Sculptor in your hands, ask yourself if you preferred the card was a Frogmite or a Sculptor.




peace,
4eak

It was mentioned before that a standard sideboard package of:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Meta cards

Is a good choice, but my play group consists of alot of aggro decks such as:

White Weenie (Side boarded kataki + Disenchant)
White Weenie (Kithkin creatures)
White Weenie (Knights + Jitte)
Merfolk (U/G that has a sideboarded Trygon Predator)
Black Weenie
Counter Slivers (UWG has Harmonic Sliver)
Goblin Deck With a black splash
Burn (Person that's playing goblins has SBed Shattering Spree)

Combo is not present but control decks are. Packing wraths, damnation, deed, and some white deck packing cataclysm + karakas.

Mono Blue Control
Landstill (U/W)
Landstill (U/G/B grip, deed and damnation)
White deck packing Cataclysm+karakas
B/G/W Deck with lots of regenerators and packs Deed+vindicate

There is no combo for me to worry about, but the precense of hate for it is quite a bit. What would be a suggested sideboard option against these.

Would the card from Mirrodin called Krark-Clan Shaman help against those aggro decks? Atleast sideboard material?

@Zappa
You can't do nothing against people siding hate against you. Just change deck if Kataki/Spree/Null Rod/whatever becomes popular.

Against tribal aggro decks I'd say that Shaman is a good choice, both allowing a combo with Disciple an dealing with weenies even if they have a couple lords in table. Sacrificing your Frogmites/Workers to it doesn't seem too costy.

Against the control decks I'd try Thorn of Amethist and/or Winter Orb.
I tested Thorn of Amethist and I'd say is really unsymmetrical with almost 30 creatures, 1 and 2 CC cards, and Thoughtcast (that has affinity).
Winter orb was tested by 4eak and he was good with it, so probably is a good option too.

I just feel bad if I would avoid playing it coz of hate. Especially after spending all those over time and double shifts to get an all foil version of this deck. I know it's pointless but it just looks so cool :laugh:.

But anyways, I like facing all sort of decks with Affinity regardless of hate or not.

I noticed that you guys are running a 3/3 split between vial and drum along side 18 Lands. Has the vial ever been an issue? I see vial as something you want to see within the first couple of turns, and not later. Shouldn't the card be an auto 4 of? Running less just decreases the chances of it in the opening, and becomes and getting it after a couple turns just seems almost like the reason behind scultor. By the time it comes out, it's a little too late.

I'd like to ask you Affinity experts if some of the new cards could find a home in this deck:

Soul's Fire: It's like an expensive Fling but much less risky.

Salvage Slasher: Good with Ravager, replacement for Frogmite?

Viashino Slaughtermaster: Kicks ass with Cranial Plating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moczoc

I'd like to ask you Affinity experts if some of the new cards could find a home in this deck:

---

Hi, I am not an expert yet but I play this deck all the time now ever since I got into it. But I'll do my best to answer your questions though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moczoc

Soul's Fire: It's like an expensive Fling but much less risky.

---

I suppose you could use it on the old version of affinity that uses Chromatic Star, Fling/Shrapnet and Atog. As a subtitute for the Fling/Shrapnel. But since you're posting about it on Vial Affinity, and the deck has undergone some changes. There's several problems that arises when it comes to that card.

1) It is red, which would mean he have to do some tweaking on our mana base in order to support a card that does not offer much. Much same reason why fling/sharpnel was taken out.

2) It is not an artifact.

3) Casting cost is a bit much. It is just too expensive for the deck.

4) It runs into the same problem as Fling/Shrapnel. There will be SOME games when it would be nice to have, but MOST of the time it won't contribute much and slow you down also. Which is something that Affinity cannot afford to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moczoc

Salvage Slasher: Good with Ravager, replacement for Frogmite?

---

The problem I see with it is there wouldn't be too many cards in your graveyard. The only time when you'll be having alot of cards in your graveyard to fully utilize this card is when you're already winning.

What if its dropped after a deed? A big creature with such a little defense and no evasion is not something I'll rely on. Disciple is already the card that I want to see wehn I am in a position that I am losing.

The card is too situational. Also running too many colored cards will cause some conflicts on your early plays, and those early turns is what's most important to affinity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moczoc

Viashino Slaughtermaster: Kicks ass with Cranial Plating.

---

Unfortunately it adding him will require tweaking with mana base. He is also not an artifact, and he only has a defense of 1. Looking at his casting cost, I would much rather run Atog, and Atog was pretty much dropped already for vial affinity.


Hopefully the next set (after Conflux) we will have something for us to toy with. :cry:
But if you wanna try out the new blue artifacts they may have some room for blue based affinity.

@ 4eak

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4eak

I think we all know which cards are affected by Sculptor. The problem is that he can only come into play when you already had the mana to cast the cards which would benefit from Sculptor (most of the time), and you were likely sitting in top deck mode or close to it. If you have the 1U to cast Sculptor, then you should already be very close to emptying your hand in the first place.

---

You're forgetting that this is the Wasteland format. That being the precise reasoning you provided for the inclusion of Darksteel Citadel.
Sure Citadel is more relevant because it ensures early-game 2cc drops, but nonetheless...

Frogmite doesn't require coloured mana, ok, but Sculptor can be vialled in.
The only real advantage I see with Frogmite is that he gets less often fucked by Pernicious Deed & Friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4eak

Sculptor does too little too late.

---

In goldfishing, maybe...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4eak

Test away. When you open with Sculptor in your hands, ask yourself if you preferred the card was a Frogmite or a Sculptor.

---

I've tested a bit because it coincided with my interests, but I don't have time for the real deal. However, I can say that I was pleased by Sculptor's performance. I suggest you try him out.

@4eak: First off, rediculous primer. SO good. Thanks for putting your time into it. I was about to drop the deck after being too frusterated by all the card options but I feel a lot better about it now. Couple Qs though:

How do you feel about berserk? I have always wanted to try it but I don't own any and don't have a lot of playtest opportunities outside of sanctioned play. I know it would go in the shrapnel blast/fling type spot that has kind of been eliminated from the deck but is it even a possiblity?

Also, I recently traded away my chalices in hopes canonist would be the answer to all my problems but it really isnt. Do you know of a suitable replacement that wont involve me spending the same or more money to re-purchase chalices? I like your suggestions to bring it in non-combo matches. Sure it is pretty good against combo but for my meta the little applications to things like boros/burn are very important. The problem I am faced with now is I am locked into white as my third color because I am playing canonist instead of chalice but there is little to no combo in my meta. This in turn denys me playing krosan grip. Ugh. I am playing disenchant at the moment but...what would you do in my situation if getting chalice was not an option?

Lastly in the MUC analysis, you didnt mention propaganda. I feel I am most scared of that card when playing that match up. Wouldnt that make it a little more unfavorable?

Thanks again for the awesome primer.

@ Nazgath

Quote:

---

You're forgetting that this is the Wasteland format. That being the precise reasoning you provided for the inclusion of Darksteel Citadel.
Sure Citadel is more relevant because it ensures early-game 2cc drops, but nonetheless...

Frogmite doesn't require coloured mana, ok, but Sculptor can be vialled in.
The only real advantage I see with Frogmite is that he gets less often fucked by Pernicious Deed & Friends.

---

I promise I have not forgotten the power of wasteland in Legacy, I hope the primer shows it.

Frogmite has several advantages over Sculptor that you have missed. I ask you read the primer for why we play frogmite. His ability to be played during mana denial and continue to accelerate other cards for free eclipses Sculptor's conditional playability and late effect. Frogmite has much higher synergy with the deck, he is free, and he is a more aggressive creature because of it.

Quote:

---

In goldfishing, maybe...

I've tested a bit because it coincided with my interests, but I don't have time for the real deal. However, I can say that I was pleased by Sculptor's performance. I suggest you try him out.

---

I didn't offer advice without having tested the card first (the previous Affinity thread will also show I've tested the card ). Sculptor's ability does too little too late in my testing, and he doesn't merit the opportunity cost of other cards we already play in the deck.


@ Kilz88

Quote:

---

How do you feel about berserk? I have always wanted to try it but I don't own any and don't have a lot of playtest opportunities outside of sanctioned play. I know it would go in the shrapnel blast/fling type spot that has kind of been eliminated from the deck but is it even a possiblity?

---

I would play Shrapnel Blast and Fling before Berserk. If you are very interested in an explosive card, then try those first.

Quote:

---

Also, I recently traded away my chalices in hopes canonist would be the answer to all my problems but it really isnt. Do you know of a suitable replacement that wont involve me spending the same or more money to re-purchase chalices?

---

Chalice is one of a kind. There isn't a suitable replacement for its effect. I'm sorry, that sucks. Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance is probably the closest effect (not even very close, I know), as it would be boarded in against many of the matches where you would board in Chalice.

Quote:

---

This in turn denys me playing krosan grip. Ugh. I am playing disenchant at the moment but...what would you do in my situation if getting chalice was not an option?

---

Which is more important, Split second DE or E-canon?

Quote:

---

Lastly in the MUC analysis, you didnt mention propaganda. I feel I am most scared of that card when playing that match up. Wouldnt that make it a little more unfavorable?

---

Hehe, I didn't mention Propaganda directly. The card is seeing a lot less play in the main, and we have K-Grip in the side. Even with propaganda, Affinity still has the advantage in this matchup.

Propaganda, by itself, is not scary. I'll be happy to pay 2 to swing for 10 with my Plated creature or MoE. Propaganda + B2B is what you scared of facing. Even this isn't awful, especially with a vial in play. Disciple + Ravager wins very easily, and it doesn't require swinging to win.

What MUC must have to win this match:

Artifact board control. You should be most scared of Disk, Shackles, Powder Keg, and EE, in that order.

Shackles and Board clearing win this match. Propaganda and B2B, while they can improve the state of the game, do not win the match. MUC should think twice about keeping a hand that doesn't have Shackles/Board clearing in the opener against affinity.



peace,
4eak

Hey 4eak, great primer. It actually sold me on building this deck and giving it some play time. It seems really fun. One question I had though was about the mana base.

You said the deck often finds itself color starved, but the main list you have only has blue/black requirements outside of colorless. So why not Underground Seas instead of City of Brass? Granted, they dont make green for grips, but thats easier to get from the Trees/drums.
It was just a thought, I havent had the ability to run the deck yet so I may just be missing something obvious but it made sense to me.

Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimmerz213

So why not Underground Seas instead of City of Brass? Granted, they dont make green for grips, but thats easier to get from the Trees/drums.

---

You're siding in Grips because you do believe you're going to need them in the SB games. That's why you need all the Green sources the deck can offer.
City of brass is usually not a great pain: between our low curve, mana accelerants and affinity cards we're rarely taking more than 2-3 dmg from a City. That's the same amount a deck with fetches will take, so I guess it's acceptable for a 2of.