Natural Order Rock

I'm currently working on the following version:

Mana:
20 random lands of some sort
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Dudes:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wall of Roots
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Empyrial Archangel

Spells:
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Lolshares
4 Glittering Wish
3 Maelstrom Pulse (will be Vindicates when I get the cash for them)
3 Natural Order
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Behemoth Sledge
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Crime // Punishment (will be Pernicious Deed once I get me a copy, random Crime seems fun, though)
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Krosan Grip

Feedback is very welcome.

EDIT:

Changed my list a bit.

EDIT2:

Would Devoted Druid be better than Wall of Roots in a format less dominated by aggro - or would Wall of Blossoms simply be better due to the cantrip? I think Elves of Deep Shadow is better than birds in the lists that runs Jitte, and Noble Hierarch could also be better there actually, I think.

OP, I like your list, The Rock is a strong shell for NO.

Here's what I would probably play...

4 x Bayou
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Bloodstained Mire
2 x Forest
2 x Scrubland
1 x Savannah
1 x Swamp
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Volrath's Stronghold

4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Tarmogoyf
3 x Eternal Witness
3 x Kitchen Finks
2 x Birds of Paradise
2 x Tombstalker
2 x Doran, the Siegetower
1 x Progenitus

4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Vindicate
4 x Natural Order
3 x Swords to Plowshares

Or for a strictly BG version of it...

4 x Bayou
4 x Wooded Foothills
4 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Forest
2 x Swamp
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Volrath's Stronghold

4 x Eternal Witness
4 x Kitchen Finks
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Tombstalker
2 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Birds of Paradise
1 x Progenitus

4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Natural Order
2 x Smother
1 x Reanimate


It's a bit more agressive than your list, and thus less reliant on Natural Order. It also has more ways to kill your opponent's creatures, which is important.

Try it, I think you would like this list a lot better. Every single card it plays is either mana, or a bomb.

I love NO Rock. I like the basic/consistent shell of the OP. I really like Top in Rock decks though, because it lets you run Confidant, lets you hit the type of disruption that you need, makes sure you don't draw Progenitus, and helps to find NO. Here's rough draft:

4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Elves of Deep Shadow
3 Wall of Roots
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Progenitus

4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Natural Order
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Smother
1 Putrefy
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
2 Darkblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Relic of Progenitus

Elves of Deep Shadow over BoP because it wears a Jitte and trades with T1 Lackey.

The manabase is very consistent, especially with 7 mana creatures, which I think allows you to run at least 3 Wasteland almost for free.

No Deed MD because it kills all of your dudes too. :rolleyes: There may not be enough removal in this version, but hopefully the Walls and Finks help stall enough against aggro until you can hit NO.

SB is pretty generic with mostly usual suspects. Might need more graveyard hate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

That'd leave:
// Lands
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Savannah
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Progenitus

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Natural Order

That list could still use a third Eternal Witness, and three or four Divining Tops, but I like the look of it.

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I like this list, and is what I would like to build. I also agree that another Witness would be optimal maybe dropping a Pridemage.
I'd be interested to know how people are finding Cabal Therapy? I feel that Hymn would probably be the better choice, particually when all of your creatures are good and not expendable.
Although most lists seem to agree, I think you need to run in NO Rock 8 discard effects, any less and I can't see you easily getting off a Natural Order vs any deck running counterspells.

I don't see the neccesity of running four copies of Qasali Pridemage when we're already playing four Vindicates that are perfectly capable of blowing up any must destroy artifacts or enchantments.

Especially when we already play Thoughtseize and Hymn to help with making sure the problem cards don't get played in the first place.

He's great utility yes, but Qasali is either a 2/2 bear or a 3cc disenchant. I completely understand decks like thresh that don't have any disenchant effects going gaga over him. But four here seems like overkill.

This deck isn't even that vulnerable to countertop seeing as how most of the stuff it plays are 3cc and 4cc anyways. I can't think of too many artifacts/enchantments that this deck is terrifed of or must be able to deal with asap.

I think at the very most, two might make sense in a countertop heavy meta, alongside the four vindicate, four thoughtseize and four hymn. And I'm eager to see how I can accomidate two into my current build.

Any comments on the decklist I posted above?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

I don't see the neccesity of running four copies of Qasali Pridemage when we're already playing four Vindicates that are perfectly capable of blowing up any must destroy artifacts or enchantments.

Especially when we already play Thoughtseize and Hymn to help with making sure the problem cards don't get played in the first place.

He's great utility yes, but Qasali is either a 2/2 bear or a 3cc disenchant. I completely understand decks like thresh that don't have any disenchant effects going gaga over him. But four here seems like overkill.

This deck isn't even that vulnerable to countertop seeing as how most of the stuff it plays are 3cc and 4cc anyways. I can't think of too many artifacts/enchantments that this deck is terrifed of or must be able to deal with asap.

I think at the very most, two might make sense in a countertop heavy meta, alongside the four vindicate, four thoughtseize and four hymn. And I'm eager to see how I can accomidate two into my current build.

Any comments on the decklist I posted above?

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I tend to agree with you on the Pridemages, I guess with vindicates it's not necessary to run them.
I think both your decklists look solid. The list running tombstalker however, it's almost a shame not to run deed in this list. Tombstalker works well either pre (doesn't die) or post deed (remove the cards in the graveyard). But I'm speaking without testing.

When evaluating Deed, you have to consider that Deed, unlike most other cards, eats up two turns of mana, not just one. So it has a much higher bar to clear for inclusion than other 3cc cards like Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse and such. When evaluating Deed, it should be considered a 5 mana or a 6 mana card, because that's how much mana you're going to be sinking into it in most situations.

You can certainly replace Doran with Deed. It depends on what matchups you see more often, swarm aggro, or blue based control/aggro control.

Deed is definately superior in the former matchup. But the latter matchups almost never cares that much about Deed, you play more creatures than they do. But Doran is something that they pretty much always use up one of their counterspells on. And thus Doran clears the way for a Natural Order next turn which if it resolves, pretty much guarentees victory for you. That's why I'm perfectly fine having to bring in 4 Deeds and the 4th Kitchen Finks from the sideboard and other tools against aggro on game two, but not designing my maindeck primarily to beat aggro.

Yes I know that Deed has other functions, but the primary function of Deed was always to kill creatures.

Deed was just absolutely incredible in The Rock before Tarmogoyf. Back then, the only creatures that The Rock played that are less than 3 mana were 4 Birds of Paradise and creatures that The Rock wanted to have killed asap like Veteran Explorer and Sakura Tribe Elder. That was a situation where Deed almost always gives you a massive amount of card advantage.

The build of The Rock I posted plays...
6 1cc creatures
4 2cc creatures
8 3cc creatures

The only decks in the format that play a larger number of low casting cost creatures are swarm aggro.

For card advantage, playing 3-4 Dark Confidant instead of Tombstalker/Doran/Eternal Witness is something that I've been strongly considering. If I did that, I would certainly play that 4th Kitchen Finks as well. Just the thought of accidently revealing a Tombstalker or Progenitus is terrifying, but I'm sure it wouldn't happen that often. Even revealing a NO could be bad though.

Deed in the SB has been better for me because I usually have enough spot removal to deal with threats CBT decks run wich seems to be the majority of the meta which I have been facing but G1 against decks like goblins and zoo are better because of NO-genitus I have noticed.

Since everyone else and their mother keeps posting decklists, this is what I'd go with, and yes it has 0 testing. :tongue:

G/b/w NO Rock

Lands (20)
4 G/B Fetchland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (21)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch (or Wall of Roots, whichever... this slot is the most debatable one to me)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Progenitus

Spells (19)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Natural Order

Rather than get cute with Top's, Confidant's, and Witness's, the deck decided to just go for straight beatdown, discard, and removal. Without drawing Natural Order, the deck still functions very well, similar to how G/b/w Survival plays without Survival. Obviously, casting and resolving for Natural Order will win games that you otherwise wouldn't have won.

Maelstrom Pulse over Vindicate?

Play both.

Hanni, why play 29 mana sources when your curve tops off at 4? I think 26 is the most this deck should ever play. I would cut some of the BoPs and the Dryad Arbor.

And also, there is very little reason to play Qasali Pridemage (and Maelstrom Pulse) over Vindicate. For a midrange deck with a diverse curve like this one, being able to kill creatures is actually more important than being able to kill artifacts and enchantments. In part for that same reason, I think Hymn is stronger than Duress in the deck.

So that frees up between 6-8 slots. Why not play something like Kitchen Finks and either some Tombstalkers or Eternal Witnesses in the slots freed up to give you a better game against tribal aggro, zoo and goyf sligh?

I didn't test the deck at all, you're more than likely right about mana sources. Like I said in quotes, those last 4 accelerators were the weakest slots and probably worth cutting.

There is very big reasons to run Qasali Pridemage. It's not just for its artifact/enchantment destruction ability. It has Exalted, which a highly valuable ability, and plays beatdown on his own. A 3/3 is very solid at beatdown, especially if you run a bunch of removal. The fact that it can blow up artifacts/enchantments just adds to The Rock removal package. One of the best Rock creatures printed, IMO. You can save your Pulses (and Vindicates if you run them) for creatures if you have Pridemages to handle artifacts/enchantments. Pridemage is an absolute bomb in The Rock. Haven't tested NO Rock much, but I'm sure the same philosophy's apply.

I also do not think Hymn is stronger, because A) it requires double black and B) is random discard rather than specific. Since we want to be resolving NO, Duress > Hymn. In typical Rock maybe that's different, since it plays more of a resource war, but I'm still of the opinion of Duress > Hymn. I'd normally play Cabal Therapy over Duress, but given that we use NO, I figured Duress would be better. That has no playtesting behind it yet, so whether Duress or Therapy is better I have yet to determine.

Free'd up slots are good. If -1 Dryad Arbor, -4 Noble Hierarch allows the manabase to still function effectively, I'd fit in 3 Vindicate and 2 Tombstalker, for sure. Or hell, 4 Survival and 1 Squee. Who knows.

@Hanni: Why don't you play Kitchen Finks? They are that good - a nightmare for aggro as long as they can't find StP/PtE and ideal sacrifice fodder for NO and Therapy.

With that many sacrifice outlets, there is only little reason to play Duress over Therapy. Often enough, you have a BoP/Hierarch/Wall or Kitchen Finks to flashback Therapy.

I like the b/g build better, harder for wasteland to hate out, less mana screw. This deck is direct, and to the point. So the only reason to play white is for STP for lackey? What about just playing snuff out like eva green? Shouldnt hurt to much since we are playing finks. What do you guys think?

Wasteland is indeed a problem for the GBW build, like I saw yesterday against Mono Green Chalice Aggro on MWS. I don't know if he was just incredibly lucky or just played a bazillion Wastelands, but in five games, he always started with at least 2 Wastelands in his hand (last game, he had 4 Wastelands on Turn 5... :eyebrow: ).

However, this problem is likely going to be fixed once the enemy fetchlands are released which should help alot. The GB build is a bit more consistent, but I don't think it is worth the loss of power and flexibility of a GBW build.

I've been tossing around a list for a couple of days. First of all, there's no Deed, so "The Rock" might be a stretch. When I tried to add Deed, I disliked how it played with the rest of the deck.

The list is very control oriented. I figure it's alright to be the control deck and be light on win conditions, because a resolved Natural Order shouldn't need aggressive friends. That left a lot of room for removal, disruption, and a shot at the combo match. Here's what I have:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Quasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Smother/Mortify...I might run 2/1
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Nantuko Monestary
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Forests
3 Savannah
3 Bayou

There's some obvious tension between Natural Order and Gaddock Teeg, but in the matchups in which Teag shines, Progenitus isn't amazing. Natural Order into Progenitus might speed up your win a turn, but your dudes aren't getting blocked by Combo, so your Pridemagi, Goyfs, and Teeg can probably get there one turn later.

I'm a big Mortify fan, but with the Pridemages main, you can probably run the cheaper Smother in its place. I'm a big fan of running a million removal spells.

I know, from experience with GBrSA, that just Thoughtseizes and Therapies aren't enough to win the combo matchup. Teeg is pretty solid against both Combo and Landstill, and at least he's a warm body to throw in front of Merfolk and Goblins. Kitchen Finks are very solid, playing nicely with Therapy, Natural Order, and opposing creatures.

Is it a mistake to not run Deed in a list like this? Honestly, I think I like Damnation more than Deed if you are packing some extra enchantment removal like Pridemage or Grip.

@AngryTroll: Wouldn't it be better to put Teeg in the SB for combo? It just leaves you with too many dead cards in the MD.

Has anybody tested the deck with the new fetchlands yet? I played a few games with the following list yesterday:

4 [A] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [RAV] Forest
2 [B] Savannah
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [10E] Plains

1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [8E] Birds of Paradise
2 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [ALA] Hellkite Overlord
1 [CNF] Progenitus

3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

With the new fetchlands, I think the deck has finally a far more consistent manabase (I'm still looking for the right numbers of each land). The high number of green fetchlands makes it easier to run Dryad Arbor, too, which in turn makes Cabal Therapy and Natural Order better. My problems with the deck is the general inconsistency (manaflood or risky 1-land hands). I hope that the addition of 2-3 SDT along with 9 fetchlands helps in this regard.

Finding the right number for some cards is another problem. I already cut Witness because, while being a cute trick sometimes, she doesn't add much to the board or is win-more.
Hellkite Overlord costs one valuable spot, but is totally worth it. He gives you a Plan B if you draw Progenitus, helps to win the game faster if your opponent is below 16 life (and you know your opponent can't do anything against the Dragon) or other shenanigans (like giving another turn against Imperial Painter by reshuffling Progenitus, giving me the extra turn I needed :laugh: ).

I feel like the deck needs more beef because Goyf and NO simply aren't enough sometimes. I'm considering Doran, but with all the fetchlands, Stronghold and SDT, Knight of the Relinquary might be the better choice due to its utility factor.

Any thoughts?

Edit: I made the following changes:
-2 Hierarch
-1 Kitchen Finks
+3 Knight of the Relinquary
+1 Qasali Pridemage
(yeah, I know, it's 61 cards now, but I can't figure out what to cut yet)

First tests showed that Knight is a real house and should definitely be considered.

This was an idea someone else posted in the Hexmage thread. But I truly think a worthwhile direction to explore is to try adding...

1 Dark Depths
4 Knight of Reliquary - great in the deck already with all the fetchlands
4 Vampire Hexmage - decent on own, great against planeswalkers, chalice and a multitude of other scenarios, and you can always sac it to Natural Order

This gives the deck two different terrifying/gamewinning combos, pretty much guarenteeing that you will see atleast one combo by turn 4/5. Or alternatively, even if your first combo attempts gets stopped by a counterspell/disruption, you'll have no problem finding another one.

Possibly, such the deck could also make room for
4 Living Wish

and a wishboard featuring
1 Qasali Pridemage - when you need disenchant effect
1 Ethersworn Canonist - hits storm/belcher combo HARD
1 Gaddok Teeg - hits storm/belcher combo
1 Vampire Hexmage - combo or kill a planeswalker or chalice or something
1 Dark Depths/KoR - combo
1 Tombstalker - When you have a full yard
1 Kitchen Finks - When you need life
1 Eternal Witness - To recoup a countered NO or a wasted Dark Depths, or just to grab a Vindicate or StP from the yard.
etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

4 Vampire Hexmage - decent on own, great against planeswalkers, chalice and a multitude of other scenarios, and you can always sac it to Natural Order

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Just FYI Hexmage isn't green.