[DECK] Welderstone Survival

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Our metas are a little different, but I think Heap Doll in the MD is a dead card outside of Dredge. Sure it stops loam, but they should have a cycler to save the LftL.

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It does more than just that, i.e. getting rid of Squee, but those are the main things. I can definitely see moving it to the SB for a general meta.

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Platinum Angel to me is useless.

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It can be good against Zoo and several other mathcups against fast aggro decks where you need to stall a turn or two, but otherwise I concur.

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To be honest, I haven't used Jaya anytime yet so she maybe a wasted slow, but I've seen Imperial Painter win right off the back of Jaya burn. If you have 8 mana off Rofellos and Jaya, you can possibly just end the game right there with a huge burn.

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I have also never used Jaya. However, I can see the idea being really good, so I'm going to endeavor to use her the next few times I go through testing and see if she actually helps when I bother to use her.

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HPB, I highly advice playing at least 3 Grips.

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There's a card I completely forgot about adding. I doubt I'll go above two for my list, although I could see where you might want more. For myself, I never seem to have problems with Countertop with the four Pridemages, and two Grips will probably ensure that I won't.

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I've liked and disliked SDT. It helps find the combos and pieces, but since this white build already has a good chance on finding one of the 3 win-conditions, I think SDT can leave.

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I still really like SDT. It helps ensure land drops against TT and Merfolk, it can grab solutions we can't tutor up after we side against Combo and the like, and it is just absurd with Survival out, as you can shuffle your deck two or three times every turn.

As for Chrome Mox, I would rather play LED in that spot. It can serve the same purpose as TfK for getting cards to the graveyard, it allows for some interesting shenanigans, it can pay for multiple Survival activations when you need it, pays for Grindstone...

The list could go on, but LED is, in my opinion, much better than Chrome Mox in this deck. The real question here is whether SDT, LED, or Blasts deserve the extra spell slots for the deck.

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I'm taking this deck again this weekend with the new white list!

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Good luck again. Make sure to keep us informed as to how you do.

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As for Chrome Mox, I would rather play LED in that spot. It can serve the same purpose as TfK for getting cards to the graveyard, it allows for some interesting shenanigans, it can pay for multiple Survival activations when you need it, pays for Grindstone...

The list could go on, but LED is, in my opinion, much better than Chrome Mox in this deck. The real question here is whether SDT, LED, or Blasts deserve the extra spell slots for the deck.

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Wow, great catch here. I forgot that LED faciliates discarding artifacts in play.

I was a little worried about the exclusion of TfK making the Welder strategy bad.

Now LED most likely solves this. If you have Welder and Grindstone out, you can play LED pop it and discard painter and Welder out an activated grindstone to win without ever having to resolve Painter against blue decks.

I think Blasts cant take the place of 3 LED/3Chrome Mox/3SDT. The deck needs the artifact count up as well. 3-4 Blasts can take the place of creatures. We actually have 24-26 creatures now in the list, which is fairly high. I might drop to 3 Painter, but having random wins with it doesn't justify it. I've seen lists drop down to 3 Goyfs in RGBSA. Not sure if we can squeeze 4 Blasts into the MD. It would be ideal to alongside 4 Painters.

I'll test the LED this weekend. At least on paper, it seems good. And you can activate Survival and pop LED to get mana to cast your stuff too if need be.

HPB_Eggo, if you have the chance, test the decks out in tourneys on MWS and post your experiences. I'll put you on the front page for being the main innovator of the new ideas of Reaper King and LED. I do think our lists need a ton of fine-tuning, and as a Landstill player, you can see how the decks have finally been finetuned over many years of testing (e.g. old Landstill only runs 2 Standstill and Crucible while the newer builds can play out 3-4 Standstills without facing problems). I believe that this deck needs heavy testing to determine the right amount of cards to run, e.g. how many Welders/Goyfs/Painters/Moxen etc.

As far as I know, 3 Welder is the right amount. Drawing him early is useless, and drawing him in the mid-game with anger in the yard is where he shines. Playing him off Survival and only requiring one in play doesn't justify 4 slots for him. With a similar logic, I hope we can optimize exactly how many of each creature/spell we should run in the MD.

I think the core that is optimized is:

4 BoP
3 Welder
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reaper King
1 Grim Poppet
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Rofellos

Questionable slots:
4th Tarmogoyf
(3 Goyfs might be all we need, but it doesn't justify not running the 4th Goyf for random wins).


2-4 Qasali Pridemage
(I don't justify this since our aggro plan is really Goyf, and not Zoo beats)

1 Genesis
(I can see him coming in with Qasali being used)

1 Jaya
(I think she's strong to be in the optimized shell above. She is pinpoint removal via burn or REB and she has burn reach to end games.)

1 Sundering Titan
(I play him mainly against control and to end games faster)

1 Sharuum
(win-more IMO. Uncastable outside of BoP and if you're recurring some artifact, it means that you spent way too much resource on dumping goodies in your yard. If there's goodies in your yard, Welder does as much as Sharuum does without having the problem being hardcasted. If you're Welding Sharuum, then something is very wrong since you can easily weld out the target that you want Sharuum to bring in)

1 Duplicant
(Grim Poppet answers most creatures by either killing them or shrinking them small enough that you're safe. Against Reanimator, Duplicant might be better but that meta is non-existent in general)

1 Heap Doll
(Good against Loam/Survival/Dredge. A one-off is possible but if you're really facing against Survival, you should have an advantage because Welder Survival is the most synergistic Survival deck out there. If you're facing Loam, then instead of stopping their loam engine, you should go straight for Reaper King/Painterstone wins or Painter/Jaya. The only matchup where he's really relevant is against Dredge, but you can usually cheat on Dredge by blasting your own creatures if you run REB in the MD, but that gameplan is too slow. If you suspect Dredge in your meta, then 1 Heap Doll should be in the MD)

1 Triskelion
(at least in my testing, there was never once where I needed to burn my opponents. There are times where I needed to ping creatures, but Grim Poppet does it better since it not only kills 1/1-3/3 but it shrinks 5/6 goyfs down to 2/3s.)

1 Magus of the Moon
(Never used him. My meta is mostly monocolor Merfolks, burn, Pox, some Thresh and Ultimate Walker and Loam. In most of those decks that run multicolor, he's easy to answer with float W off Tundra or Seismic Assault. Definitely a MD slot if your meta is filled with 4c Countertop and ITF etc)

1 Teeg
(I think Teeg doesn't stop combo as well as Canonist does. emdlin has mentioned in the storm thread that he doesn't fear Teeg at all. Teeg doesn't stop the ANT player from MTutoring or InfTutoring up bounce but Canonist at least buys another turn for their answer against the hate bear. If you dropped 2 Canonist. They're going to have a hard time if they don't have Virtue's Ruin/Echoing Truth etc. If you need Teeg to win the control matchup, then I can't justify it because this deck has a good control matchup since if you resolve either Welder or Survival, you're in great shape with the card advantage. Welder also allows you to cheat things in play without casting them. Other than that, Canonist is an artifact that slows down ANT, Enchantress, Zoo).

One last thing that we should consider, was the old discussion on Vial Survival.

Our vialable targets are:
1cc
3 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
4 BoP

2cc
4 Tarmogoyf
1-4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Painter's Servant
1 Rofellos

3cc
1 Squee
1 Jaya

I can't justify vial though. We can already cheat things without casting them. So vialing in a Goyf/Painter isn't that much of a big deal I guess.

I am not sure about the LEDs... since they are really only good, when you have Painter and Grindstone or one of them and Welder in play and the other in hand.
Seems very situational to me.

I am not sure about 3 Welders only. The same argument you brought up could be said for Painter's Servant. (which are even tutorable wirth E.Tutor)
I often saw my Welder sworded or in grave. Without Witness it is even worse.

Scooter, having thought about it. I'm still up for 3 SDT over 3 LED since it gives a better topdeck/mid game.

I'll test LED around outside of the tourney to see how it goes.

I disagree with 4 Welders, but it's playstyle. I'm assuming you play Welders without Survival or Anger in the yard. I usually only play my Welders if:

1) I want to bait removal to keep Painter alive
2) I have Anger in the yard so I can activate him without worrying that he dies
3) I have Survival in hand/play.

The point is playing Welder without any of the 3 motives above is a waste. Welder pretty much dies to everything, and there's absolutely no way he will stay in play. Therefore Welder can only be abused in Survival lists. If you played a Welder just for the sake of playing Welder, you're asking that he gets killed, especially when you're setting up. The best and only time to play Welder is to be able to use his abilities when your opponent is hellbent so you can try to stick him in play, or play welder if you have anger, so just 1 activation is enough and all it takes.

As far as I play the deck, I use Welder as a tool to support Painterstone combo. And if I get him to stick off a Survival or use him just once with Survival, he's served his purpose for the deck.

Is your list more reliant on Welder? Maybe changing the playstyle would help but that depends on the decklist you're running. What's your current decklist like?

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HPB_Eggo, if you have the chance, test the decks out in tourneys on MWS and post your experiences.

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I've mostly been playing this in my own meta, so trying it online may be a good idea.

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Scooter, having thought about it. I'm still up for 3 SDT over 3 LED since it gives a better topdeck/mid game.

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What we need to learn is whether card quality or mana acceleration is what the deck needs. I'm thinking that, with mana acceleration in the form of Birds, Rofellos, and, in some ways, Goblin Welder, card quality is probably better than additional mana acceleration.

I concur with three Welders being the right number. However, going below four 'goyf with no other comparable beaters that can easily be cast is probably not a good idea. RGBSA and Surviving Bant can go below four because they play other beaters that are, while not necessarily as good, completely capable of ending the game by themselves. We simply don't have any replacements for 'goyf in the deck atm.

My verdict on Jaya is that she should be cut completely. Getting her is almost always reliant on Survival, and I would rather be using Reaper King than Jaya in every case I have pulled her out so far.

Finally, Vial is probably not a good idea. There is very little reason to want to be holding onto our guys until the end of the opponents turn, which is one of the real strengths of Vial, and we can side in blasts against blue to make counterspells matter less.

Reaper King rocks:

It is now the Precombat Main Phase
sco0ter plays Windswept Heath from Hand
sco0ter taps Forest
sco0ter plays Grindstone from Hand
sco0ter taps Taiga
sco0ter plays Goblin Welder from Hand
<GlennF.> Ok
sco0ter taps Tropical Island
sco0ter plays Squee, Goblin Nabob from Hand
<GlennF.> Ok
sco0ter is looking its Library...
sco0ter puts Reaper King into play from Library
sco0ter puts Squee, Goblin Nabob to Graveyard from Play
sco0ter taps Windswept Heath
sco0ter puts Windswept Heath to Graveyard from Play
sco0ter's life total is now 10 (-1)
sco0ter puts Tropical Island into play from Library
sco0ter taps Tropical Island
<GlennF.> Ok
sco0ter puts Shield Sphere into play from Library
sco0ter shuffles library
sco0ter stops looking its Library...
sco0ter puts Reaper King to Graveyard from Play
sco0ter puts Shield Sphere to Hand from Play
sco0ter plays Shield Sphere from Hand
sco0ter taps Taiga
sco0ter plays Goblin Welder from Hand
<GlennF.> Ok
sco0ter taps Goblin Welder
sco0ter puts Reaper King into play from Graveyard
sco0ter puts Shield Sphere to Graveyard from Play
sco0ter taps Goblin Welder
sco0ter puts Grindstone to Graveyard from Play
sco0ter puts Grim Poppet into play from Graveyard
GlennF. puts Tarmogoyf to Graveyard from Play
Grim Poppet now has 3 (+3) counters.
Grim Poppet now has 2 (-1) counters.
GlennF. puts Dark Confidant to Graveyard from Play
Grim Poppet now has 1 (-1) counters.
GlennF. puts Eternal Witness to Graveyard from Play
Grim Poppet now has 0 (-1) counters.
GlennF. puts Noble Hierarch to Graveyard from Play
It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
sco0ter taps Grim Poppet
sco0ter taps Grim Poppet
sco0ter taps Reaper King
sco0ter taps Reaper King
GlennF.'s life total is now 10 (-10)
<sco0ter> End my turn
It is now turn 12 (GlennF.)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
GlennF. untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
GlennF. draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
<GlennF.> Thinking
GlennF. plays Savannah from Hand
GlennF. taps Savannah
GlennF. taps Savannah
GlennF. taps Bayou
<GlennF.> gg & cu, nop reason to play vs trashpiles.
<System> Player Lost


In fact he is best in letting this deck look like a "trashpile" to make opponents even more pissed when they lose to him.
Otherwise I am still not sure, if he is worth the slot over Duplicant.

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Otherwise I am still not sure, if he is worth the slot over Duplicant.

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Reaper King destroys things other than creatures. This is really very important when playing against, for instance, Countertop; enchantments, artifacts, and Planeswalkers all go down to Reaper King while Duplicant sits around and fails to do anything. Its the flexibility that makes Reaper King better than Duplicant or Sundering Titan.

Yes, I know what he does...

The thing is, that he is slower, usually by one turn. You need more setup (more mana, more Scarecrows, more Welder actions) to get it's effect, while Duplicant has it's unconditional Cip trigger.

Here's my report for today. The new GRw version is so much better than GRu.



Tournament 25: 09/13/09
1st/2nd: Chris Z with Welderstone Survival and Jeff with Ultimate Walker
3rd/4th: David with GRB Aggro Loam and Eddi with Death and Taxes

Participants:
Jeff - Ultimate Walker
Will - Affinity
Mike G. - Pox
'lil Chris - UGR aggro control?
Eddie - Death and Taxes
Eugene - UGbw Countertop
Chris Z - Welderstone Survival
David - GRB Aggro Loam
Drew - Imperial Painter
Last guy?

Decklist:

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
4 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Tree of Tales

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rofellos
4 Painter's Servant
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Jaya
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reaper King

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grindstone
4 Survival of the Fittest

SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
5 REBs
2 Krosan Grip
1 Heap Doll
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle


Match 1: Will with Affinity.
Game 1:
He won the die roll and I kept a good hand of ETutor, Survival, SDT, lands. He went first and before I could do anything, went nuts on turn 3 with double Myr, plating and double frogmite.

Game 2:
-3 SDT, -1 Sundering Titan, +2 Grips, +2 Needle
He probably kept a hand of 3 Plating. I gripped one Plating and resolved Welder, which kept his board off when he swings in as I weld his creatures out. Welder bought time for me to Paintergrind him.

Game 3:
I kept a weak hand of ETutor, Grindstone but drew into a Painter, and went off fast.


Match 2: Eddie with Death and Taxes
Game 1:
As usual, I lose the die roll. I kept a hand of Survival, SDT, lands and stuff. He plays Canonist and I delay Survival, sculpting my hand. I didn't want to risk losing Survival to Oring and since he was playing slowly, I followed as well, and resolved Survival with GGG to tutor for enough targets in cased he Oringed. He cataclysmed leaving him with Jitte, Canonist, Land and he drops a vial. I'm left with Survival, Taiga and Tree of Tales. I proceed to grab Pridemage to settle Vial, and the game drags a little longer with him stuck on 1 land unable to equip Jitte and me not drawing lands as well. Eventually, I get my lands and go off with Grim Poppet killing his board.

Game 2: -1 Sundering Titan, -3 SDT, +2 Needle, +2 Grips
I can't remember our matches since I played Eddie twice today, but I believe this was fast because he didn't have the removal for Painterstone, which I happened to draw, and resolve a Welder as well.


Match 3: David with Aggro Loam
We drew into Top 4, but playtested a couple of games. We ended up being 2-2, 2-2 pre and post board. Pretty even matchup. If Loam gets the shit, you lose. I got wastelocked on turn 1. If Survival sticks, you should win. Either way, Pridemage was MVP against Chalice and Seismic Assault. Since Loam is not a blue deck, you should recklessly try to grab up Painterstone. Post board 3 Crypts and 2 Grips help a lot. Pithing Needle also works against Wastelocks and Seismic Assault.

Match 4: Eddie with Death and Taxes
Game 1:
This time, the games were more exciting. He resolved Mangara and Karakas, but only used him once for the rest of the game. I guess my deck was putting out a ton of combo-pressure that he cannot afford to lose tempo. I got Survival out unanswered and happily tutored for my targets until he hits Stonecloaker and removes a couple of critical cards off my yard. I try to be careful with not losing squee and he gets double cloaker out after a cataclysm and starts beating me. I successfully keep Survival and set up Quirion Ranger. I weld Tree of Tales for Reaper King, in response he flashes Stonecloaker. I tell him that the 2 targets are no longer legal so the exchange is not made. I used Quirion Ranger and discarded Grim Poppet to weld him in. He resolves and I blew up a Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker on the board. The game turned in my favor after he blinks Oring on my previous Welder to Oring Survival. I get 2 Welders out and Grim Poppet, which translates to him having no attacking force. We move onto game 2.

Game 2:
I kept a pretty strong hand but with no green: BoP, SDT, ETutor, Survival, Plateau, Mountain, Painter's Servant. I topdeck into a Taiga and the game ended fast with Paintergrind.


Match 5: Jeff with Ultimate Walker
We split but playtested two games. I won both games off the back of Sundering Titan. From my experience, Landstill/Walker control decks are solid but have trouble dealing with multiple bombs. He runs Fire//Ice so I have to try to prevent myself from getting two-for-1ed. I bait Goyfs and Grindstones to resolve Survival, and instead on getting Squee online, I chose to go straight for Welder Titan. Turns out it worked well as I destroyed 3 lands per activation. Haste helps too.

The second game ended similarly as well. Ultimate Walker's inherent flaw is that it wins pretty slow, i.e. it wins with the ultimates of planeswalker (hence it's name? LOL) with the exception of Elspeth.


Comments:
I think this deck is finally begin to take some shape. I would like to thank people on the source for paying attention and contributing to this, mainly sc00ter and HPB_Eggo. HPB_Eggo came up with the janky idea of Reaper King, but it's most definitely a great card in this deck. I used Reaper King to destroy Elspeth @7 counters.

The white build is definitely the right direction, and ETutor has never been more powerful in any other deck. ETutor in this deck almost seems like MTutor in ANT.

From playtesting, I conclude that Jaya is a bad MD slot. Thinking about it, she's really too expensive. If I want to play and use her on the same turn, I would require: 3RRRG, and the triple red makes it impossible in the deck. For the same purpose, Survivaling Reaper King and Welding and playing Painter's Servant is much faster, you only need: 2RGG.

Jaya is coming out and I'm giving her a chance in the SB, but sadly, she might just be totally out of the deck. The deck has a chance against Dredge match one since you can also get a god hand with Painterstone, and has a pretty decent chance post-board.

The deck does innately well against blue-based deck postboard with 6 REBs. Pre-board, you need to rely on baiting carefully. Against Countertop deck, the white-version is weaker since it's susceptible to 1-2cc. Run more grips in a countertop heavy meta, and try to resolve Pridemages.

When playing the deck, I'm generally unafraid on any form of aggresive aggro e.g. Affinity, Goblins. This is because with the power of Survival tutoring, you can easily get out of a nasty hole. The main aggro decks that give this problems are discard and LD-based Eva decks. SDT in those matches help a lot more. Oh, and SDT is much better than Chrome Mox. The card tutoring is good and although drawing multiple SDT sucks, you can set yourself up with Welder.

Combo is still a bad matchup, but hopefully with 3-4 Canonist and 6 REB you should do okay. I would side out the Welder Package and play straight up painter and try to race combo by disrupting them with REBs and Canonist.

All in all, the deck felt very natural to play, and more importantly, it's a super fun deck. I'm loving Welder more and I think this is one of the deck that he fits in in Legacy. Also, my SB options were great, since Crypts and Needles can all serve as Welder fodder. So, there wasn't anything clunky at all, aside from Sundering Titan being bad against monocolored decks and Jaya being useless all day. Grim Poppet was MVP in my aggro matches.



@Reaper King: Don't cut him. He's the Vindicate Angel of the deck. And you know what's better? When your opponents bolt and Firespout your board with Reaper King and Painter and Grindstone, and you point out that Painter is a 2/4. He's such a janky card that people don't read him, and hence makes him even better for your opponents to try to bolt Painter. Reaper King is good. He's won (or stabilized) me 4/8 games today, hitting artifacts, Bob, Elspeth and Countryside Crusher. Scooter, 4 Painter and 1 Grim Poppet is enough scarecrows to support Reaper King. HPB_Eggo was playing a suboptimal list with too much scarecrows (Scuttlemut is just strictly worse than BoP and Heap Doll and Heap Doll is strictly a SB card). Painter is easy to cast anyway, and getting Welder, Reaper King, Painter involves 2RGG, which is not too difficult by the time you're going off.

The list you played looks pretty solid. I definitely agree that Jaya should move to the SB.

The only thing I can disagree with is MD Sundering Titan. I've played with him quite a bit, and, with the exception of something like 4C Landstill, I always find myself grabbing and setting up Reaper King first. That suggests a SB slot to me, although I'm not sure what to put in the MD; for myself, the two Heap Dolls are solid slots, but that's mostly a meta decision.

I also think Genesis needs either a MD or SB slot, as it will sit there and win the game against control. True, graveyard hate kills it, but that doesn't make it bad.

I'm still looking at seeing whether LED makes the cut, so I'm going to test something along these lines, using your list as a starting point...

-1 Titan, -1 Jaya, -1 Teeg, +3 LED

I'll let you know how it goes.

Yeah I forgot to mention changes I'd make to the deck after today's testing:

-1 Jaya
-1 Teeg
-1 Mountain

+1 Tree of Tales
+1 Genesis
+1 Duplicant/Triskelion/Heap Doll/not sure, probably Shield Sphere to allow Welder to go off.

I think of all the games I played, I didn't want or desire LED. But feel free to test it. I have a feeling it's going to be a win-more card.

I like Titan in the MD, since it wins aggro races. It's great against 3 colored decks. You don't really need to go greedy on 4 colors. I think we need 1 Shield Sphere to enable Welder.