Yeah i just looked it up on the FAQ
=(Quote:
* Training Grounds affects only creatures you control on the battlefield. The costs of activated abilities that work in other zones (such as cycling or unearth) won't be reduced.
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Yeah i just looked it up on the FAQ
=(Quote:
* Training Grounds affects only creatures you control on the battlefield. The costs of activated abilities that work in other zones (such as cycling or unearth) won't be reduced.
I have been experimenting with this:
So far, Enlightened Tutor really works wonders. I am still skeptical over Jitte.Quote:
20 U/W lands
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Children of Korlis
1 Amrou Scout
1 Defiant Falcon
1 Ramosian Lieutenant
1 Whipcorder
1 Defiant Vanguard
1 Mirror Entity
1 Shield Dancer
1 Dunerider Outlaw
1 Big Game Hunter
4 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Training Grounds
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bound in Silence
Is Ramosian Sergeant really unncecessary? A potential turn 2 recruit/turn 3 double recruit sounds pretty nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
I think this deck actually has a lot of potential. Standstill should be an auto include. You can cast creatures under it with the rebel tap abilities.
Also, the deck should really abuse Children of Korlis some more. The fact that you can tutor him up with so many creatures (Lin Sivvi is scary) is a big surprise against an opponent who is unfamiliar with the matchup. Decks with Burning Wish have to go for Pyroclasm to get rid of all the creatures, or go for EtW because Tendrils won't get there when you can search for Children of Korlis in response.
You ought to include at least one Standstill in your list then. Its too strong to pass up, seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
I dont know if I've been playing with chaff players off of MWS but so far, I have a winning record. Most of the games that I've lost, I either got mana screwed or had to mull to 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Children of Korlis is awesome in keeping yourself alive. I once had a game facing a Progenitus and actually survived because of Children of Korlis. I had 2 Training Grounds so for two mana, I was able to gain the 10 life I lost every turn thanks to Lin Sivvi. I don't know what my opponent was doing by I managed to ramp with so much mana that instead of recruiting back Children of Korlis, I went for the Mirror Entity win. That was one of my most epic games.
So far, I only had one game where I actually like Jitte (it was against burn. Jitte kept me alive). Would a single Standstill be really helpful?
Also, I find that Ramosian Sergeants arent as good of a 1 drop as I would imagine because I am either going for turn 1 SDT, turn 2 Cbalance or turn 1 Training Grounds, turn 2 Lieutenant.
Also, instead of having toolbox control, I was thinking of toolbox life combo (Task Force + Outrider en-Kor) but I don't know how effective this would be.
Gocho, what is your current situation on the deck?
I don't test it because we have our monthly Legacy League Tournament this Saturday.
With all the European airports closed my ROE order will not arrive until the next week, so I'm testing another decks.
It's a pity, because if we can get a decent list, I think that the deck have potential.
Sergeant seems the MVC in the deck in my testing. She could search for almost any rebel and T1 Sergeant, T2 TG + Recruit for :1: is stronger that T1 TG, T2 Lieutenant and gives you a better option vs combo.
In the Countertop version, I agree that Sergeant is a bit useless. You have 8 possible turn 1 plays; 4 Top or 4 Grounds. These all tend to be better than just a lowly Sergeant, especially if you can follow the Grounds up with a Scout/Lieutenant.Quote:
Originally Posted by TokenMaster
Now, that being said, in the non CT version, Sergeant is definitely valuable. You only have 4 Grounds as a possible turn 1 play. Having the option of Turn 1 Sergeant AND turn 1 Grounds greatly increases the deck's consistency.
The real question in deck development right now seems to be Countertop vs. Standstill. Countertop's 8 requisite slots mean that consistent Standstilling is unlikely. This feels problematic, considering how outrageously good Standstill is with Rebels. I am also uncertain about the slot problem; my own build is a bit tight on extra slots, and I cannot imagine what I would remove for the additional 4 cards needed to support the Countertop engine. Nameless One's list has a surprisingly few number of rebels; only 13 in total. Given the importance of dropping an early recruiter (Scout/Lieutenant/Sergeant/Falcon), I feel that this number should be higher. My own count is about 18. This leaves plenty of room for 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Swords, and some Standstills, Bound in Silence, Tutors, etc.
The only nice thing about Countertop in this deck that other decks cannot match is the repeated shuffling. If your initial top activation sees no cards of equal CMC, then you can recruit something up on the cheap and try again. But is it a necessary synergy? Is countertop important in the deck?
-ktkenshinx-
Currently, I have no problem with my current number of rebels. Basically, my main strategy is to stall via Counter-Top engine or fetch needed rebels. Then late game, go for a massive army of rebels with the help of Mirror Entity and Training Grounds.
At 1st, I tried just using Standstill but with no success. I tried both CounterTop and Standstill and it showed success, but since the deck was too tight, I ultimately removed Standstill. I could be wrong, but then again, I am still testing the deck. Also, I have sacrificed other permission spells to make room for CounterTop. So, my only castable permission is Force of Will.
ktkenshinx:
Would you like to share your current decklist?
The main difference in our lists is the number of rebels. Specifically, I really like the turn 1 Sergeant/Grounds option followed up by a turn 2 Scout/Falcon/EoT Brainstorm. In testing this has proven a strong opening that gets you ready to handle anything by turn 3, roughly the time at which mosts decks hit their stride. Backed up with a playset each of FoW and Daze, this has proven enough to weather those initial turns until you can get some recruiting going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Counter Rebels: Draft 1
Lands: 20
4 Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
1 Tropical Rainforest
1 Karakas
Creatures: 17
4 Amrou Scout
4 Ramosian Sergeant
1 Children of Korlis
2 Defiant Falcon
1 Shield Dancer
1 Defiant Vanguard
1 Mirror Entity
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Whipcorder
Spells: 23
1 Bound in Silence
4 Daze
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Path to Exile
4 Training Grounds
I have not decided on a sideboard, but it will probably include 1 Bound in Silence and 3 Crypt/2 Trap, the latter of which is, in my experience, an awesome package against graveyard based decks. The rest is sort of up in the air.
As to the maindeck, I have found that the initial 3 turns are the most critical in keeping the deck rolling. This is especially true against Zoo, Dredge, and Goblins. To that end, 4 Sergeants/Scouts and 2 Falcon smoothes out early game play, along with the possibility of a clutch Training Grounds drop on the first or second turn. Defiant Vanguard is awesome against Zoo/Countertop/Threshold because he wrecks Goyfs. Shield Dancer is a bit redundant in some cases, and I am looking to replace it with something.
I have considered adding in some Enlightened Tutors in place of a few rebels and maybe even the Paths. If so, then I would probably also add an equipment or two to diversify the tutor possibilities. Grounds is just so integral to the deck that failing to produce one by turn 4 is often a game breaker.
If I added Countertop to the build, I would make the following cuts:
-1 Shield Dancer
-2 Amrou Scout
-4 Daze
-1 Standstill
+8 CounterTop
This would still exclude the Tutors from the build, however.
-ktkenshinx-
ktkenshinx: Your list is almost identical to mine. I think 4 of each countertop piece is a bit much, though. I only have 3 of each and have 2 Enlightened Tutors in the place of the fourth copies.
How useful has Shield Dancer been for everyone?
Can you activate Shield Dancer twice? If you can deal double damage then it can kill goyfs and such if you have Training Grounds in play.
Also, I think its worth noting that a trick with Children of Korlis (CK). When you lose 10 life, you can sac it and gain 10 life.. each time. So if you have Lin Sivvi, Training Grounds, and another Rebel(s) in play, you can tutor CK, sac it, put it on the bottom, and then repeat for each other rebel in play (provided you have enough mana).
Shield Dancer kills goyfs with a single activation, you make * damage with her ability and 1 damage because she is a 1/3.
But yes, you can activate it twice, but only works as you want with double strike critters, because the ability redirects damage.
This trick with CK is why I pack multiples CK in my decks :D, gives to you two or three extra turns after Aggro empty his hand, to find Lin Sivvi and recycle CK :)
The countertop version plays less Rebels because the deck needs the 8 slots to the countertop engine.
With Standstill you can play more rebels, and I won't go with less than 11 recruiters because as you know after playing Belcher, this is the perfect number to get 1 single recruiter in your initial 7. This gives you 11 recruiters + Mirror Entity + 5/6 utility rebels = 17/18
Both are good options, but the way you must play them are very different
Anyway, as I say, Standstill and Countertop didn't seems the cards that the deck needs in our testings. You don't need the extra draw from Standstill when you can play it safely and many times you must choose between Countertop or Recruit+TG with your cantrips. We must find a different pack yet that can make the deck faster to survive vs the fastest matches.
Cutting Sargeant, regardless of build, seems like downright blasphemy, it's the singlemost "brutal" turn 1 play the deck is capable of - Training Grounds is only useful with a recruiter without summoning sickness and Top isn't really all that on turn 2 (barring the turn 2 Balance -> lucksack blindcounter).
I agree with Gocho here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocho
I find that early game, CounterTop Rebels are very vulnerable. CounterTop Rebels only work really well if your opponent has a low curve. I guess my luck with the CounterTop Rebels started running out as the deck started to miserably fail. I am currently working on my Standstill version.
Gocho, would you like to share your current list? Thanks!
And I agree, Ramosian Sergeant is really good. Its essentially our Lackey. However, it did not work with CounterTop version because it doesnt curve out with it. It is going back in my Standstill version.
EDIT: Would See Beyond be good on this deck?
I don't think See Beyond is all that good, especially given that you can do that with Brainstorm for one more card at instant speed for one less mana. You can usually shuffle your junk away at will with rebels or fetches.
Would a rebel deck that has countertop, but doesn't rely so heavily on it work? I'm currently using 2 Coutnerbalance since I'm already using 3 Enlightened Tutor and 3 Sensei's Divining Top for utility. I haven't found as much use for countertop as I'd hoped, but it doesn't get in my way much, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flrn
This is a very interesting thread .
I have a few questions to the players of this build . I've noticed none of you use AEther Vial , does Vial help in this deck at all ?
I've noticed a no Cataclysm . I assume that Training Grounds would be awesome post Cataclysm , has this been tested ?
There is some flexibility on the manabase but I can see this deck getting away with playing Wastelands . Has Wasteland been tested ?
I'm playing the Rebels+Still list in the first page yet. I don't like the alternative rebels that we found. I order a playset of TG to test it vs real decks but doesn't arrive.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Wow! Cataclysm seems a perfect card for this deck. You need a lot of mana to play with rebels, but a playset of Flagstones of Trokair would make the trick, one land from Cataclysm, another one from Flagstones and another from your hand, and you are on your way again :wink:Quote:
This is a very interesting thread .
I have a few questions to the players of this build . I've noticed none of you use AEther Vial , does Vial help in this deck at all ?
I've noticed a no Cataclysm . I assume that Training Grounds would be awesome post Cataclysm , has this been tested ?
There is some flexibility on the manabase but I can see this deck getting away with playing Wastelands . Has Wasteland been tested ?
I'll test it in the Standstill slot.
- 2 Stadstill
- 2 Marsh Flats
-1 Plains
-3 Path to Exile
+2 Cataclysm
+3 Flagstones of Trokair
+3 Swords to Plowshares
Make me want to fit some artifacts in the deck, ¿TOP? ¿Another one?
But I don't think that Wasteland could come in without Cataclysm. You need a lot of mana, and the tempo loss would affect you more than your opponent. Wasteland after Cataclysm is an excelent trick if you have ends with 2 lands, a recruiter and a TG and your opponent only have a single critter.
What matchup is Cataclysm supposed to improve?
This is the first question in TheSource when any new cards appears for any deck, but we don't test the deck enough to know which are the worst matchups. So, it's impossible to know what machups improves Cataclysm.
But land + creatures destruction in almost one side is enough good to worth the testing, much more when we need an alternative way to Countertop or Standstill.