You can play both options. Ravenous in the SB is a good target. If you play vs 3+ Emrakul's you can go for Stroke of Genius. It's harder but viable.
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You can play both options. Ravenous in the SB is a good target. If you play vs 3+ Emrakul's you can go for Stroke of Genius. It's harder but viable.
Here is a list that I have been working on. The Retrace Images have been great for both accelerating your fundamental turn and ramping your land count during the combo I have replaced Brainfreeze with Stroke because it enables the combo and is a kill con that does not care about Emrakul. The sideboard is a work in progress... I have just added some auto includes and some utility bounce.
I would really like to find a way to drop FoW and add Chant. Time Spiraling into fresh countermagic on the other side of the table against blue can be annoying. I do not like the idea of opening myself up to wasteland and not being able to tutor for the chant pre-combo. Any suggestions on how to shut out blue players post spiral with out splashing would be helpful.
// Lands
3 [JGC] Polluted Delta
12 [4E] Island (3)
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
3 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
3 [US] Time Spiral
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [US] Turnabout
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [TO] Retraced Image
4 [8E] Merchant Scroll
3 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [JGC] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
Pacts and FoWs are more than enough as far as I 've confirmed with the testing. But if you feel that you need extra punch in those blue match ups tru Defense grid (which is specially gore with Turnabout, targeting opponent obv.).
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
I'm playing a similar list than you, but i moved the 4th Turnabout MD and down the MD CoF to 2 due to you can't recur them after TS, i'm looking for a better untap spell to down the count to 0.
Image has been great for me too it's the best addition to the deck in months, i'm playing 4 MD as 2 turn goldfish is nuts and it's not difficult with this list (and the reason i haven't cut the CoF)
After doing a little research, there is Reality Spasm from RoE. Doesn't enable the turn 2 as well but recurable post spiral.
Reality Spasm English
Instant, XUU (2)
Choose one - Tap X target permanents; or untap X target permanents.
From the moment the first Eldrazi spawn squirmed free, everything on Zendikar took on an adjusted meaning, a new slant toward or away from the waking giants.
Illus. Jason Felix
Toils of Night and Day is better than that one (and still that much worse than Cloud).
Twincast would have great synergy with much of the deck.
This is old Permanent Waves tech; but wouldn't Toils + Candelabra > Turnabout in a deck such as this? Toils effectively makes Candelabra reusable with Time Spiral, and candelabra is just peaches in its own right. Also when playing Candelabra there's no reason not to play SDT all of a sudden, Could make far an interesting shell in all.
Is scroll rack better or worse than SDT here, or would they be able to work together?
Scroll Rack seem very slow for a deck that should strive to goldfish on turn 3. Currently testing the following list btw, which seem decent at least for now. The lack of Wish hurts sometimes, but I think the easy access to the sideboarded tundras makes up for it imo, and the 1-Intuition 1-win setup has worked well insofar (getting to 11 mana to Scroll -> Intuition -> Spiral is simpler than it sounds, and it can also get BF through Scroll). I dunno about the win itself; could be Stroke, could be Emrakul.
Top has been awesome in testing btw; helps you set up, helps you recover and gives you a virtual 10-card hand after Spiraling (which is nice indeed). Candelabra is likewise pretty swell and slightly better than Turnabout if you run it off 3 lands (especially when you have multiple out and can go into the bonus with Toils).
// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
10 [MM] Island (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Spells
4 [CHK] Peer Through Depths
4 [US] Time Spiral
4 [8E] Merchant Scroll
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [BOK] Toils of Night and Day
3 [US] Turnabout
1 [TE] Intuition
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 3 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [M10] Silence
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [U] Tundra
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
This list seems inherently flawed in my opinion, for several reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitium
The first thing I noticed after looking at your list is the addition of Sensei's Divining Top. In a deck that is about as mana-hungry as any other combo deck currently in existence, biding your time using this as a primary search function above other cantrips does nothing but eat up your resources. It might buy you several turns of fixing of your draws, but Ponder and or Preordain should already be used for those purposes.
You're also diluting your sideboard for a splash into White using either Orim's Chant or Silence. While this looks good on paper, it just isn't as good here as you may think it is. This archetype sorely lacks "ritual" effects, and tapping a Tundra (which would probably eat a Wasteland anyway by the time you are ready to combo out) only slows you down further, as you need to cast High Tide first and subsequently protect it. Tundra counts as an Island, so if you tap it first, you're robbing yourself of an additional U you can use towards your goal of ramping up your mana count.
Four Candelabras are way too many. You're utilizing this as a bastardization of Turnabout and or Reset, and while I personally think it is a solid card, opening a hand with one or two of these is extraordinarily bad - especially with Sensei's Divining Top and no real other action. Turnabout can slow down an attack and shut down other decks at the end of their turn to close the opponent out using their counter-magic. I would go something like this here:
-3 Candelabra of Tawnos
+3 Cunning Wish
In this particular instance, you are able to open up your sideboard as its own win-condition. Plucking into a random Candelabra to either open the game or Spiral into it once High Tide has been active can really blow open the door to give you more access to your action spells. Drawing into multiples post-Spiral is not very good at all. This is also true for Top (one Island=UU/cast, activate).
Your list has no way of getting around Emrakul or other cards with triggered (or replacement) effects in the main-deck, which aren't as uncommon as one might think. This archetype is picking up in popularity, and being prepared Game One by having a readily available plan is just as important as your sideboard games two and three. Basically the deck auto-loses to those archetypes and forces you win Game Two, and then win Game Three on the draw. We want to win Game One, grind it out Game Two, and hopefully steal Game Three on the play (if it comes down to that).
Your list seems more dependent on opening draws and drawing out your early turns using Top and less on main-phase cantrip effects. I see Peer Through Depths, which is decent, but you're opening yourself up to giving away information and not allowing yourself to choose a potentially critical land to continue ramping up your sources. Impulse obviously does this better, although you go down four deep instead of five (which may or may not be beneficial).
quick question why do you play toils of night and day when mana short exists? is it just storm fodder or what?
It untaps Candelabra and / or Islands for starters. I was going to write a lengthy response but then again I'm also going to sleep. Maybe later. Short answer is that the presence of Time Spiral does necessitate changes to support it better and it doesn't compare well with Spring Tide (and Solidarity less so).
So, after some further pondering I decided to scrap the halfassedness of Toils and simply rip not only a page but the entire fricking book out of Permanent Waves and just go for Mind over Matter as the last untap effect. Since it generates absurd amounts of mana with Candelabra this also makes Stroke that much less prone to fizzling which makes it the win condition of choice. It also doubles as a CA engine with SDT since a single top can cycle all the dead cards on hand (and 2 tops can cycle through your entire library given a modest mana investment).
Top is necessary in my opinion since it not only fixes your draws but also acts as a guaranteed cantrip post-spiral, which makes it far less likely to fizzle and also gives you an edge in FoW-wars (10 cards vs 7 cards is a huge deal here). The Wishboard never really struck me as necessary (since most of the time I'm really only looking for additional Tides or Spirals) and really does eat up space that can be used to shore up bad matchups instead (ie Storm Combo, Ichorid and anything running more than 8 counters postside). The only peeve I currently have with it is flat out losing to Chalice@1 preside. Peer through Depts digs deeperthan Impulse when looking for additional Spirals which is all there really is to it. I only need 3 lands to go off consistently so I'd rather just dig for the essentials (the information is in my opinion less important here since playing Impulse is already a dead giveaway for Tide combo).
Current List; still not set on the SB or the exact numbe rof untappers:
Lands
8 Fetches
10 Island
Combo
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Turnabout
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Mind over Matter
1 Stroke of Genius
Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Peer Through Depts
3 Sensei's Diving Top
Tutors
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
Protection
4 Force of Wil
Sideboard
2 Tundra
2 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
2 Rebuild
3 Wipe Away
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
EDIT: Random thought - replace MoM with maindecked Rebuild. It resets candelabras, draws cards with top and deals with chalice and assorted random. It even replaces itself when dead. Neat.
But BF still copies a lot and counters is useless when storm count is 18+Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJunkie
However, it is good against mindbreak traps
Neither Emrakul or Brain Freeze are good against Mindbreak Trap, since it REMOVES all copys of a certain spell from the stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
For the time when he cast trap targetting BF or Emreakul you will have 3-4 FOW in hand.
Belive me, he must cast Mindbreak Trap early, trying to counter your kill spells is useless.
Hey All,
I am new to this thread but have been following it. I have been testing the list below with decent success. The deck basically goes off turn four every game. With two different means of winning it has proven versatile against many match ups. I would like to get any advice if possible from others running similar strategies.
Land 18
14 Island
4 Polluted Delta
Creatures 2
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells 40
2 Pact of Negation
4 Retraced Image
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral
1 Stroke of Genius
Sideboard 15
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Snap
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
Just a few thoughts: I have included Emrakul as he seems to be a better win condition than brain freeze. I have consistently been able to hard cast him on turn four after a time spiral or two. It is actually pretty fun to go crazy and draw a ton of your deck, make a bunch of mana, then do it all over again. Not to mention the look on your opponent's face when you hard cast an emrakul on turn four. I have also included a stroke of genius in the main. It makes sense to me to have it in the main not just the wishable side. I am not sure of this yet. I haven't tested it enough to know.
Overall this list has worked pretty well for me. I would really like to hear what other spiral tide players are thinking.
@Sturtzilla: Pact of Negation don't go well with Emrakul imo...
Also, how is Retraced Image doing for people playing it?
I already play G for Xantid Swarm, but would really like to know how many times does it is useless without the cantrip, or without another land in your hand.
And how is the Merfolk MU going for you guys? Even with Xantid MD, it is going pretty ruff for me...
I dropped it pretty quickly. Sure it can enable some T2 kills, but that requires you find Tide, Spiral, Untap and preferrably Force with only one cantrip, in a hand naturally having 3 lands (including 2 islands in the opener) in the top 8. Midcombo it's win-more since (in my pretty limited testing; go exam) the deck can generate enough mana off 3 lands just fine. The fact that it doesn't play ball with Fetchlands (and by extension top and brainstorm) doesn't exactly make it better either in my eyes.
@Sturtsilla: You realize that you run a grand total of 5 win conditions there? The Emrakuls looks unnecessary between Stroke and Wish.