[Deck] Tempo Faeries

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Originally Posted by Bardo

From the other thread, I'm not a fan of Terminate, since it moves a critical utility (your removal) into both your off-colors. I prefer Bolt, Smother and Ghastly Demise since each of those only requires one mana from an off-color.

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I'm just worried about the random creatures decks play in Legacy that cost more than 3.

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, or maybe I just can't let go of a card I've used so much in the past. It would make my deck more consistant because pre-sideboard I wouldn't even need a red source of mana ever. I just really like the 'Destroy any creature no matter how much its cmc is' clause the card has.

I guess the creatures I'm really worried about that sees play is Tombstalker, dredge decks, Reanimator decks, post-survival vengevine/ooze decks. Mostly random fringe decks people play.

I'll playtest it hard this weekend and see how many times I can't cast Terminate when I want to and see if those times I could cast Smother. With my manabase if I play it smart that should be slim to none.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

Hm, my opponent actually looked up the rule and came back and said it was triggered and said I could. Good to know, though, thanks.

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That was me, mujadaddy. Nice to meet you. It's a small... cyberspace?

And, being that I was wrong, I'll put that in my "wins" column. ;) Thanks for the info, Nidd. Goot to know.

Wow, nice to see so much discussion going on in this threat. And again, thanks for all the kind words. About the tempo thing; I think I'll write an article, and I'm about halfway finished.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Except for the Firespouts, I wouldn't call my removal package "tribal hate." Bolt is multi-modal, hitting TES players that get greedy on life; shaving a turn or two off your win when you're clocking them with Clique; killing Bobs, Nacatls and Hierarchs -- it's really flexible. Jitte I just love having, since it turns even a humble SSS or BB token into a 5/5, helps vs. burn and kills stuff. Jitte on a Tombstalker is kinda overkill, but really intimidating. :) Overall, Jitte is good because most of Faeries' creatures are kind of crap on their own.

In metas with more aggro-control and control, I'd drop the Firespouts for EEs.

From the other thread, I'm not a fan of Terminate, since it moves a critical utility (your removal) into both your off-colors. I prefer Bolt, Smother and Ghastly Demise since each of those only requires one mana from an off-color.

Also, I can see dropping Clique #3 for Daze #4; but Clique rocks. Hard.

I also might test a Badlands in place of Volcanic #4, though I'll probably go back the first time I need to mulligan because of it.

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Yepp, you're right. Firespout is the only dedicated tribal hate you're running. I'm just a bit too narrow-minded about Umezawa's Jitte and Lightning Bolt, because they're my boardings against tribal aggro. And yeah, a Tombstalker with an Umezawa's Jitte is about as intimidating as Emrakul.

By the way, I agree with your opinion on Terminate, I really dislike that it's in both of our splashcolours. But both, Ghastly Demise and Smother work really well for me.

I also agree with your opinion about Vendilion Clique, it's really strong. But I think it's BitterStalker's worst threat, despite being one of the most flexible cards in the deck. The reason why I would rather run the fourth Daze is basically just turn two Bitterblossom, which might be the strongest play this deck has. I might go back to the two Tombstalker four Bitterblossom setup; I had the Tombstalker clog my hand way too often yesterday. But I'm afraid I'm not going to see them often enough anymore in my tribal matchups then. I also dislike how much worse it makes the deck against Engineered Plague. We'll see how it works.

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Originally Posted by bsnake35

It comes from playing this deck in Type 2 for the duration it was legal. Against different deck types I do different things. That's what is/was nice about Faeries and FaeStalker, it can either be a dedicated control deck, i.e. 'slow', or it can be hyper-aggressive.

Against a slow control, i.e. Landstill, Counterbalance, etc, I run out as many BBs as I can because they just become overwhelmed too fast for them to come back from. Against Zoo I probably wouldn't run out multiples. It also depends on what other cards I have in my hand. If it is a hand full of counters I usually run out multiples and just counter the stuff that can kill em, EE or Quasali Pridemage usually. Like I said, and most people already know, it's really hard to win against an active BB, even in Legacy.

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Well, I didn't play this deck when it was in Standard since it didn't play at all back then. I stopped playing after I played Gifts Ungiven in Standard (which was a blast to play by the way).

Anyway, the difference between the difference in playstyles this deck has is quite simple. This has to do with whether you're control or beatdown which in turn has to do with fundamental turns. I'm talking about this in my article on tempo, but in general the player whose fundamental turn comes first is the beatdown. With Bitterblossom in hand our fundamental turn is turn two, we usually want to rush it out as fast as possible, preferably with some kind of free counter in hand. When we have Vendilion Clique or Tombstalker in hand, we become a bit slower; our fundamental turn will usually either be turn four or five. Obviously, this changes our playstyle a lot. What's strong about BitterStalker is that it can switch roles easily and we can go back to being control after our fundamental turn.

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Originally Posted by bsnake35

I have to disagree, I think a well timed Extirpate bends Dredge over. Also, I think Dredge is a terrible legacy deck (it seems better in vintage, but I don't play that format so I don't know). It's a 100x weaker version of ANT, which I happen to love. Also countering their Breakthrough/Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe and killing your own creature (even a faerie token) after they dredge with a lightning bolt or other such nonsense to remove their bridges from the game totally messes them up. It's kind of like belcher, very single minded and if you mess up their inital thrust they usually can't recover.

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Dredge is pretty strong when in the right hands. On top of that, it has the Belcher-like behaviour to just randomly win games. Have you ever played against lists with Bloodghast? They're incredibly stronger than those without. They have almost no bad dredges since they almost always hit some business and they're way more resilient to hate. When testing, I usually play against Bloodghast Dredge. In tournaments I usually don't (my only to losses ever against Dredge were against Bloodghast Dredge by the way).

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Originally Posted by bsnake35

Atropos:

This is the 'next level' of Canadian Thresh. It is much more resilient to way more decks. You don't just lose to a Counterbalance lock. You should check out U/W Tempo also if you like tempo decks. It's pretty good as well.

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I don't think this is the next level of Canadian Threshold. But I agree that it's more resilient than traditional, graveyard-based tempo decks with Tarmogoyf and such. What I do think is that tempo decks are the new face of control. I'm talking about this in my article as well.

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Originally Posted by bsnake35

I'm just worried about the random creatures decks play in Legacy that cost more than 3.

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, or maybe I just can't let go of a card I've used so much in the past. It would make my deck more consistant because pre-sideboard I wouldn't even need a red source of mana ever. I just really like the 'Destroy any creature no matter how much its cmc is' clause the card has.

I guess the creatures I'm really worried about that sees play is Tombstalker, dredge decks, Reanimator decks, post-survival vengevine/ooze decks. Mostly random fringe decks people play.

I'll playtest it hard this weekend and see how many times I can't cast Terminate when I want to and see if those times I could cast Smother. With my manabase if I play it smart that should be slim to none.

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Again, the thing about not playing Terminate is that you can operate off of two basics, which is really strong. Terminate really only works well when you have some duals, which you can't always afford to fetch for; you really don't want to play into Merfolk's Wastelands. So far, I've never had problems with my removal-suite. Except for one game against Zoo, when I had Snuff Out in hand and couldn't cast it because of his Gaddock Teeg. I needed another piece of removal for his Knight Of The Reliquary anyway. Which I topdecked in the form of Smother next turn.

Just another question:

If you were committed to a 2-color deck (U/b) would Ratchet Bomb be a viable card as opposed to Engineered Explosives to get to the critical mass of 3 (converted mana cost)? It seems really slow...you play it for 2, put a counter on it. Now you're waiting for 3 more turns to pop the thing off. Is Ratchet Bomb even an option? (For reference: I play 2 Engineered Explosives in the maindeck, along with 3x Trinket Mage)

You should probably still run a one-off off-colour dual to be able to cast Engineered Explosives for three. You're right about about Ratchet Bomb being awfully slow.

By the way, my article on tempo: Exploiting Tempo.

I have a question about the strategy against Decks like New Horizons. I agree that relic of progenitus is good here. But how is it with tombstalker and ghastly demise? Had someone ever problems with casting tombstalker because of relics?

Most of the time you're only going to use Relic's first ability, so it rarely matters.

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Originally Posted by Jona

Most of the time you're only going to use Relic's first ability, so it rarely matters.

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I haven't tested Relic in this deck, but in Merfolk I find myself blowing it up a la Crypt many times vs. decks like Ichorid.

What decks are you going to board it against and only use the first ability? And please don't say Threshold, I'm talking current decks that are actually competitive (I'm sad that my Mongeese are so bad in Legacy right now :()

UBG Threshold is actually quite strong right now. Well, probably only today and tomorrow, but is was really strong against Vengevine. It was just a bit boring. Anyway, against Dredge I mainly use the first ability as well, we can usually counter their attempts to go off, and then it's hard for them to recover via slowdredge. I also bring it in against New Horizons and Zoo. Depending on the list, Zoo has 10-12 creatures against which Relic Of Progenitus is pretty good.

Didn't read the whole thing, but something I always thought about this deck. Lightning Bolt is a very strong tempo play.

Sure, if your meta is all about Tarmogoyfs and KotRs it might not be that good. But against Merfolk, Zoo and Goblins it's very good!

Just picture the sequence of plays: You're on the play against Zoo. You play and a land and pass with Stifle up. Your opponent plays Taiga and Wild Nacatl. With Bolt in hand you can just kill at EOT and play a Bitterblossom safely on your next turn. If it was a Smother your could do that, but you would take a whole lot of damage.

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Originally Posted by mcfarland

That was me, mujadaddy. Nice to meet you. It's a small... cyberspace?

And, being that I was wrong, I'll put that in my "wins" column. ;) Thanks for the info, Nidd. Goot to know.

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Yeah, you completely won, then ;) Nice to meet you, too, and nice tricky deck!

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Originally Posted by Jona

my article on tempo: Exploiting Tempo.

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Re: Dreadnought -- yeah, I suppose you're right -- having him in-deck makes me hold onto Stifles and play badly. Out he goes.

Article is fairly good -- Metalwalker's post (#5) is a good compliment to yours.

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Originally Posted by Jona

Anyway, the difference between the difference in playstyles this deck has is quite simple. This has to do with whether you're control or beatdown which in turn has to do with fundamental turns. I'm talking about this in my article on tempo, but in general the player whose fundamental turn comes first is the beatdown. With Bitterblossom in hand our fundamental turn is turn two, we usually want to rush it out as fast as possible, preferably with some kind of free counter in hand. When we have Vendilion Clique or Tombstalker in hand, we become a bit slower; our fundamental turn will usually either be turn four or five. Obviously, this changes our playstyle a lot. What's strong about BitterStalker is that it can switch roles easily and we can go back to being control after our fundamental turn.

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You're preaching to the choir here.

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Dredge is pretty strong when in the right hands. On top of that, it has the Belcher-like behaviour to just randomly win games. Have you ever played against lists with Bloodghast? They're incredibly stronger than those without. They have almost no bad dredges since they almost always hit some business and they're way more resilient to hate. When testing, I usually play against Bloodghast Dredge. In tournaments I usually don't (my only to losses ever against Dredge were against Bloodghast Dredge by the way).
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No, I have never played against lists with Bloodghast but I've heard they are slower and more consistant and thus should be easier to beat than Dredge that can randomly 'go off' turn one or two with the correct draws. If you draw a single Extirpate and use it on their business cards, i.e. Bridge, Ichorid, and even to a lesser extent, Dread Return and have a counter for their other plays, which this deck should because it runs something like 17 counters on average it slows dredge down enough to be easily beaten. I've never had a problem with Dredge playing this deck, but I do agree that it can just 'go off' and win randomly which is annoying.

Some brewing on the train today.

Esper Fae

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Ponder / Preordain / Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Bitterblossom
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra

SB:
Perish
Gravehate
Peacekeeper
Paths

Any reason we're not playing this? Plow has to be better than Bolt or any of the /b removal.

You could even sub a Tundra for a miser's Karakas -- which is super-tech with Clique.

Alternately:

-4 Stifle
+1 Daze
+3 Spell Snare

Thanks to Jeanbathez for reminding me:

Here is a link, if anyone wants to watch, of me losing against Blake for the top 8 spot of SSG Open Minneapolis.

It wasn't a very well played game, mostly because Magic will be Magic and sometimes you don't draw enough lands. Also, I had never played against U/G Survival so I wasn't prepared for it. That changed rather quickly. This is a video from earlier this year:

http://ggslive.blip.tv/file/4105350/

I love the commentary. All of them never saw this deck before and they thought it autoloses to slow control! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Any reason we're not playing this? Plow has to be better than Bolt or any of the /b removal.

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I agree Plow is the best there is, but how do you deal with Goblins? That is by far our worst matchup and one that is readily played at many major and smaller tournaments. Firespout seems like a must. You could run Wrath of God in that version or 4 Paths along with 4 Plows but I don't know how the consistancy of the deck would be affected. Also, Wrath would be way too slow. (i.e - One turn most of the time)

Agreed. The difference between 2R and 2WW is huge (no sarcasm intended; Wrath is essentially unplayable in this format). My argument is that all of your non-Merfolk, Goblins and Elves match-ups would get better at the expense of the tribal m/u.

Maybe the default splash color for Faeries shouldn't be /r. Maybe the default should be /w, switching to /r in an expected metagame with a lot of tribal decks.

Played this today:

// Lands
1 [IN] Island (4)
1 [9E] Plains (2)
1 [OD] Swamp (3)
3 [B] Underground Sea
2 [U] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [NE] Daze
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [9E] Tempest of Light
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [OD] Innocent Blood

3-1 drop (I really don't enjoy Magic much these days)

Beat Reanimator, TES and Goblins, Lost to Merfolk


I'm almost certain now that R > W in almost any metagame. Oh and Sprites are clunky as hell.

You don't loose a lot if you cut W (only Swords, Ghastly Demise is almost as good, the only think it doesn't kill is Confi, but 4 Snares should take care of that.)

I'm not really a fan of Terminate, the format has become so friggin fast that 2 Mana removal is really clunky.

The version I consider the strongest is probably something like :

// Lands
1 [IN] Island (4)
1 [OD] Swamp (3)
3 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [5E] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [NE] Daze
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Ghastly Demise
1 [OD] Innocent Bloodt

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [AT] Lightning Bolt

You MU against spellbased stuff is great, so I optet for maximum removal in the board to shore up creature MUs.

I've slowly been obtaining cards for a blue tempo deck over the past couple of months, and I've decided to either go with this or a U/Goyf/r midrange tempo variant a la NLThresh. Here's the list I've built and have been testing for a little while on MWS:

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

4 Bitterblossom- I've tested the 3/3 split with Stalker, and I like 4 Blossoms and 2 Stalkers a lot more.
2 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Umezawa's Jitte- This slot will possibly change a lot over time. -1 Jitte +1 Preordain might just be better.

4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain

4 Force of Will
4 Daze- I like 3 normally since it's a pretty dead draw later on, but as previously stated, it gets a lot better with 4 Blossoms. Would be the third Preordain otherwise.
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

3 Terminate- Higher potential over Smother's consistency. The removal slot will be heavily tested.
2 Engineered Explosives- I like Firespout more, but EE has more applications game 1, so it gets the nod.

Side:

3 Nihil Spellbomb- As a fairly seasoned Dredge player, I can tell you from experience that Extirpate is the worst threat in terms of graveyard hate. I can understand siding it if you want to fight Loam or something similar, but it only removes 1/3 of Dredge's triad of doom (with a bit of splash damage to the other two). Spellbomb doesn't affect your Tombstalker and cantrips- sign me up.
2 Extirpate- That being said, Extirpate is still grave hate and has a wide variety of uses even though it's card disadvantage most of the time.
4 Ghastly Demise- In my mind, much better than Bolt out of the side since it's not in the splash color, can hit bigger things, and outside of Bob, black doesn't really have anything threatening. I try to keep sideboard cards as to close to one mana as possible (especially in a tempo deck), which is why I wouldn't consider Smother for the side.
3 Spell Pierce
2 Firespout
1 Sower of Temptation- I borrowed this from NLThresh. Goes in against decks that pack big creatures but have either little or no removal- New Horizons, Sneak Show, etc.

I agree with bsnake35 and paK0, the reason to run red over white is Firespout. It improves our two worst matchups, Goblins and Merfolk. Against Goblins Engineered Plague might actually be better than Firespout, but it sucks against Merfolk, which is a heavily played deck, at least in most metas I play in.

By the way, KevinTrudeau, I like your list, but Lightning Bolt really is better than Ghastly Demise off the board. It's really important that you can use with full power on turn one, and you're running the Badlands anyway.

That being said, I think it's time to pick up the fourth Chinese Bitterblossom again.

A hearty thanks to all the contributors to this thread.

Although I am not currently playing this deck, the lessons and theory about card choices and Jona's article about Tempo have definitely helped my game.

Playing another type of "tempo" deck at the moment - Team America - but very interested in taking it in the Bitterblossom direction. It is such a versatile card.