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Nice intro read. I've only tested sobm on mws. So far it works pretty well, but his list is still a little awkward.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
I would've gone at least -1 slogger, -1 trini, +1 raiders, +1 RPD. He's not claiming to be an expert though so, not gonna stress on his list.
Thanks for the nice review of the deck! Gives a lot of tips on why certain cards get played/ don't get played anymore etc..
May I add a little something. Not totally unimportant but..
Phyrexian Revoker
It can now hit Hierarch and Birds, which a peedle can't.
But it can't hit fetch/waste/ Academy Ruins/ Other lands you don't want to see.
Firstly, I very much doubt naming Revoker on Hierarch/Birds would be an insanely relevant play for us. Yea, it denies them some mana accel, but decks that run said creatures (primarily Survival) don't rely heavily on said accel, and the Exalted still triggers. Secondly, in regards to the fact it can't hit lands: if your 8 MD Moon effects aren't sufficient for land hate, then we have bigger problems beyond Revoker not hitting them. :rolleyes:
Revoker is amazing because he's an extra beater that sits above the typical Chalice @1. Do we sometimes set Chalice @2? Sure. But it is a far less common charge counter setting for decks that use Chalice (DS, Aggro Loam, Stax).
Forlorn Egoist
the synergy of moon shutting off duals and fetches, and revoker shutting off colored mana is nice. I just personally don't choose to run it. Revoker can potentially be the difference between a player getting out from under moon and being stuck under it
and now we can actualy name LED
Revoker also hits Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial, Pernicious Deed, and random occasional things like Vampire Hexmage and Goblin Charbelcher. He'll stop Gempalm Incinerator from eating your Pit Dragon. He'll stop Sword of Fire and Ice and Umezawa's Jitte from getting attached to stuff. And it IS relevant that he hits everything in the format except basics that nullifies the effectiveness of Blood Moons, including Noble Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, Lion's Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond, etc. He's a monster. Period.
I'm not sure this deck has been viable for a long time, but if it's going to be, you need to maindeck Phyrexian Revoker. It'll add another skill level to the deck, but it's so worth it.
This is my current list.
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
3 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
SB:
4 Stingscourger
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Arena of the Ancients
2 Manic Vandals
Nice list, Taco...but don't you think it's better to run the full set of Songs and cut on Sloggers instead vice versa?
I agree with Tacos. Revoker's hits are very devastating with good intuition. The set is still fairly new, but revoker has been great in testing.
Also, I've been getting into the habit of siding out songs sometimes, which has worked out really well. In my mox tournament, i had G2/3 running only 2-3 songs a lot of times. The logic for why I did it was that if the deck establishes significant control/removal to make things into an attrition war, I'd rather have a SB hate than mana accel. Yea, it goes against the "all in red" feel, but I personally liked how my deck was rounded out.
Hey guys. got an embarrasingly bad tourney report. 23 man 5 round swiss.
basically running hellbent stompy trying out maindeck revoker and 1 sword of body and mind.
R1 - UGB tempo/team america?
G1 - t1 magus resolves. SoBM prevents jace and shows me what he's playing :D.
G2 - he thoughtseizes, fow's, COUNTERSPELLS!, until he locks with deed and jace ftw. sadness.
G3 I throw locks at him to counter. put gathan raiders out. he puts out deed. I use revoker! He reveals his removal is go for throat instead of snuff out (lucks), promptly killing my gathan. I get there though 2 sloggers.
R2 - Ths jankiest mono black rogue i've ever seen. (got wo winners through a bye and paired up with me. FML! spoiler => i lose)
*No Need to read, I'm just venting*
G1 - t1 chalice @ 1. t2 gathan. t3 sobm equip and attack. (he doesn't play anything for 5 turns) I start milling ridiculousness. I saw Avatar of woe, sorin markov, plague wind, and banefull omen. wow. i also saw royal assasin, go for throat, edicts, snuff, and doomblade, which tells me i got a big chance of losing to this guy. I win g1, but....
G2 - everything i play gets removed, i never get chalice out to stop any of it, and he beats me down with ridiculousness. He's like a 14 yr old kid that literally waited to kill me with sorin markov's mindslaver ability using my tombs. :(
G3 - at this point i wanna shoot myself and i'm in store for more suffering. He cuts me good, causing me to mull to 4-5. I get no land, but he refuses to kill me. He literally waits till time is out and kills me on turn 4 of overtime. (half of me wants to strangle him)
*venting finished*
R3 - Junk (more sadness. imo worst mu. i face this guy a lot. he placed 3rd at scg san jose and i pretty much already know i lost)
G1 - he wins die roll and rolls me with mox, basics, thoughtseize and goyfs/ kotr
G2 - he rolls me again with mox, basics, Maelstrom pulse, Deed, swords, and goyfs.
R4 - Reanimator.
G1 - t1 chalice@1 gets countered. he goes islands and careful study. I resolve magus, and he never reaches black mana.
G2 - He plays islands and preps for a sick play. I play trini, he dazes, i use ssg, he uses the dazed island in hand to discard to FOIL the Trinisphere! he also gets to pitch inkwell from foil as well. I pass and he goes petal petal exhume. Looks bad. I play magus. he swings. i top jitte and attack! he swings. I top SoBM. He swings, jitte saves me. Soon he realizes I'm gonna win through life gain, pro blue and wolf tokens. lol :D
R5 - Spring Tide (This guy has a crazy UB list that took 5th in a 59 man,look up Bryce Yockey to see list.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...cklists/page10)
G1 - Chalice@1 gets there.
G2 - He discards magus, counters trinisphere. Beat him down a little, but he goes off t4/5 ish?
G3 - i mull to 6. yikes! bait w/ t1 dragon, but he doesn't counter. trinisphere next turn is good! I eventually hit magus and luck out.
so 3-2, and a 10th place finish. Miss t8 by tiebreakers (Damn u black rogue!)
+ revoker is beastly
+ SoBM was really good, but not a staple. Fun and kind of gave me an "i win" feeling whenever it resolved though.
- Small turn out resulting in bad prize pool. (Moat was advertized)
- rogue decks getting byes
- inability to beat junk with moxes (help plz!)
@Tacosnape:
Does Ratchet Bomb serve a particular use against a specific matchup? I think Ratchet seems like a versatile catch-all answer, but it's horrible at its main function, answering. Against creatures, it's slower than Pyroclasm, Stingscourger, and even sometimes slower than Arc Slogger. Against everything else noncreature, you have Pithing Needle/Beetle or Manic Vandal.
Arena of the Ancients :eek: Very innovative find, hats off to you.
- inability to beat junk with moxes (help plz!)
Ratchet Bomb is the droids you're looking for. My list hasn't changed in a while, but I did pitch FTK for ratchet Bomb #3 and Powder Keg 1 (Might as well, right?). I like Bomb because it's a permanent solution, not one that gets removed--which happens all the time to Revoker. Also, I like having at least some mass removal potential versus tokens, etc. I do miss having 21 creatures and 24 after boarding.
Revoker is good... even if he gets removed [less removal for RPD], Taco is right with Revoker main, as I board him in in 80% of the time, and he helps to hit the permanents that ignore Moon [Vials, Moxen, Mana-creatures].
I am very happy with my build right now, which looks like this:
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Blood Moon
3 Koth of the Hammer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain
/////
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
3 Anarchy
3 Boil [could be anything]
Only 7 cards that cost 4, and 3 ot them can produce mana [untapping with 4 lands, and maintain hellbent never felt saver] =D
What about Lady Latex? Meta-choice?Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Jaya Ballard is pretty strong. It's spotremoval/reach and wins against Merfolk. It's also nice with Koth.
Oh, and I agree on Phyrexian Revoker being awesome. In testing it proved that it could beat greedy hands easily when combined with another screwpiece.
mox diamond - You still run Trinisphere and Revoker to deal with Mox Diamond so dealing with Diamond isn't that different than dealing with Hierarch besides being able to kill Hierarch with Jaya. Otherwise, you might have to consider casting Chalice at 0 but you have to face the risk of shutting off your own Mox and Gathan Raiders. But sometimes that play is worth it if you have a turn 1 Magus down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Ratchet Bomb - What I'm trying to drive home is that I think Ratchet Bomb is a versatile solution to permanents, but it's BAD at it. From what I understand, the only token generating cards that you need to worry about are: Thopter Foundry, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Sigil of the Empty Throne, and Empty the Warrens, and Bridge from Below, and you are running cards that already prevent or deal with these cards.
I don't think many people here are overly fond of Ratchet Bomb, but unlike Powder Keg it does also hit enchantments and Planeswalkers *mumbles* but it can't blow up artifact lands. =( Sometimes it's just nice to have some type of board clear, albeit one that in some cases depending on the threat can take 2-3 turns to rack up the necessary charge counters.
@ Phyrexian Revoker MD:
I have to say that I am indeed intrigued by this as it seems that in nearly every MU I am making some excuse to board in Pithing Needles (still working on getting my Revoker playset) so the MD slots are entirely justifiable. I think I'll plan on playtesting this and seeing how it works. Has it been success for other players?
Forlorn Egoist
Against Planeswalkers though, you already run Revoker. Unless you preemptively cast Ratchet Bomb, it's never going to kill planeswalkers fast enough for it to matter. I'd honesty run Pithing Needle alongside Phyrexian Revoker over Ratchet Bomb if planeswalkers are a concern.
And against enchantments, the problematic enchantments against Dragon Stompy are Moat, Pernicious Deed, and essentially any white enchantments Enchantress plays MD and post-board. Ratchet Bomb is the tits against Moat, I'll give you that, but do you really need it? Moat isn't really easy to cast with Moons in play and you can win via the hard way ala Pit Dragon, Arc-Slogger & Koth's ultimate. Revoker and Needle stop Pernicious Deed cold. Against Enchantress, Anarchy owns them unless they have Karmic Justice on the table, and isn't susceptible to O-Ring or Seal of Primordium like Ratchet Bomb.
I addressed this to Tacosnape but I'll ask anyone: What are specific matchups that Ratchet Bomb is the best card to bring in g2 and g3?
EDIT: On another topic, is Red Sun's Zenith too janky for Dragon Stompy? I think it might serve as good reach plan later in the game. It's also effective somewhat-recurring removal. It's not bad at taking down Tarmogoyfs, especially considering the fact that it shuffles itself after resolution so it doesn't incidentally pump the Goyf you just damaged or pump your opponent's subsequent Goyfs.
What would red sun's zenith be replacing again? And banefire seems much better anyways or even demonfire. RSZ seems awful.
Phyrexian revoker is the nuts in here. It punishes people for keeping one landers with sensei's divining top by naming top, names 'walkers, gets pridemage...the card is very good and can go with mana denial by naming mox diamond as well. I'm with tacosnape you should MD 4 of the card always. Also helps against combo by naming LED which is awesome since you just took their most powerful card and reduced it to nothing unless they take a turn to answer revoker at which point you can lay down more lock pieces or a RPD.
Moat isn't the best vs. us because of koth's ultimate, RPD can fly over it, and you can deal 8 damage with arc slogger. Moon effects are bad against them as they run at most 5 nonbasics those being taiga, savannah, and serra's sanctum. If they draw a fetch off the top I guess it gets hit but then they have red mana for words of war. Anarchy is king in that MU though.
This deck should be really powerful if it's built right it has all the tools it needs to win.
Thx for the tips guys! Funny thing about the revoker and ratchet plan is that I've had unfortunate experiences with both plans against junk against the same guy. lol
I ran 3x ratchets a few months ago, but when I put it out early, he played conservative and removed it. When I did it late, I would get beat out b4 it could do anything. I realize it's technically one of the best options. I'm just sad we don't have better :P.
As for revoker, i revokerred his mox, but it just ran into an StP. I feel mox wrecks me bc, if i magus, he can stp it, and if i go chalice/revoker, I give him time to fetch basics. This puts a lot of pressure on me to get a moon+chalice@0 first turn and kill him b4 he reaches a swamp.
All in all, I just feel it'll always be a bad mu that I try to avoid. More unfortunate is that like 4-5 of them hit top 16 in scg edison lol.
On revoker in general, he's definitely a beast that I'm sticking with. He was always a welcome draw, and single handedly beat team america for me on the draw (shut down deed).
Taco... please tell me.
Which artifact is so dangerous that we need to board Manic Vandals?
And MUCH more important: Against which decks you board Stingscourger??? The only MU I can really imagine to board them is Sneak & Tell.
Is that so? I assume you play in a huge Sneak & Tell-meta with 4 Scourgers AND 2 Arenas?:really: