Starcity's new buy list - Consequences?

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Originally Posted by wcm8

At the very least, they could reprint format staple uncommons in easily accessible products. Like how they had a couple StPs and Mishra's Factories in the Elspeth/Tez duel deck. Cards like force of will, wasteland, aether vial, and so on should really be reprinted in a widespread, relatively cheap way -- FtV sets don't really increase availability enough to effect prices. It's one thing that old reserve list rates become expensive, but it's another if format staples needed to even start building a budget deck outprice some dual lands.

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Its likely they will. I know that some people term decks "Knight of the Reliquary" decks, because of its utility and pervasiveness in the format. I'd suspect that knights would be undervalued at 10$ if not for the fact that they are being reprinted in a large scale in knights vs dragons.

Wizards is standing on a gold mine of reprinting "unreserved" legacy staples in a large scale. These cards would sell product and absolutely no one would blame them for reprinting Force of Will on a large scale (hey, they are a company).

All of the people mentioning the reprint policy are right, especially the guy who said Wizards just "kicked the problem ahead of them".

SCG is raising their prices and knowingly raising them everywhere, but the problem is that Wizards puts far too much stock in collectors, and not enough stock in the people who actively want to purchase and play their game. The reprint policy should have gone in "From the Vault: Relics" and been buried forever. Wizards has an entire team who have the job of figuring out how they can reprint old cards and release them without flooding the market.

If you are a Legacy fan and you are unhappy with the prices of cards it is your duty to call, e-mail, write or personally tell people at Wizards what you think of the reprint policy.

I think what people are missing is that it isn't really SCG's "fault" that they are buying duals for so much--if they don't raise their buylist prices, then they're going to be consistently out-competed by ebay auctioneers/MOTLers/others, and then they won't have duals to sell to players wanting to play in their tournament series. As it is, selling all of your cards (at least the nice ones, since I have no doubt SCG is going to be as stickler-y for conditon as they have been in the past) to SCG starts to look like a pretty good idea, since you avoid the death-of-one-thousand-cuts of paypal and shipping and opportunity costs. Well, at least it will until ebay prices adjust to between scg buy and scg sell.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure Bleweiss is right about the judge foil Force of Will--it's got to be coming, especially since they've provided many other judge/FTV foils of popular legacy cards, like Lackey, Vial, Wasteland, Onslaught Fetches and Top. I'm just keeping my NM forces, and trading the rest off to finish dual playsets, etc.

Most of this is likely just a market bubble caused by Candelabra going big (and probably being over priced due to a run on the card as of now, it will settle to 150-200 depending). A similar thing happened around the same time last year. People are buying all of these cards, then realize they don't want to play with them and move on.

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Originally Posted by Eksem

Well, let's not make SCG into crooks just because they pushed what is most of you peoples favorite format when WotCs management of the reprint policy is the real problem here. We (as in we, the part of the community that despise the reprint policy because of situations like these) let that disucssion die way to easily. WotC just kicked the problem ahead of them, and now it is resurfacing again.

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Quoted for truth, most reasonable comment in this thread so far.
SCG reaps the rewards of organizing their own Legacy circuit, but that doesn't justify any conspiracy theory. Prices go up because demand exceeds supply, and the real culprit of scarce supply is the current reprint policy of Wizards.

I don't understand all the hate for Star City. They don't control enough of these cards to approach a monopoly so they are still subject to supply and demand. They need supply so they up their buy prices and advertise them on the their site. I'm not sure what is so sinister about this. If you want cheaper prices than what they are offering then buy from another retailer, Ebay, MOTL, your local game store or other players.

They have had a large hand in the rapidly increasing interest in Legacy, but they are the ones who took the risk in starting up legacy $5k's when they weren't getting enough players to make them profitable on their own. Isn't more interest in the format what everyone wants anyway? The only time you are really at their mercy is at their events where they are the only dealer and you really need/want a card. Apparently people have tried to fix prices on low print run cards like Candelabra, but again it's not like they have all of the Candelabras in the world. They are able to sell at higher prices because they are the most well known and have integrity. Again, not sure where the sinister element is in doing their job well and the ethically right way. I mean people complain when they take their site down during the B&R updates, are you crazy? You have some right to grab up the cards everyone knows are going up for the old price and deny them the profit of that after eating the cost of stocking those cards?

The real blame has to go to the reserved list. It is a fact that there are a fixed number of each of those cards and they can only support so many players. More players entering the format raises demand for these cards as many of them are integral to the format. The only way to prevent the increase in cost of these cards is to print more of them and increase the supply. Only WOTC can do this, not Star City.

Legacy is the best format in Magic by far in my opinion, but when you are shut out of many decks permanently because of cost it stifles deck building, fun and interest in the format. I too worry that legacy will eventually become like vintage, but I think the only way to stop that is to get rid of the reserved list.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

In all seriousness, the growing price on competitive staples, in addition to the growing demand for Dual Lands, has caused me to completely stop playing for the time being.

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Maybe you shouldn't have sold everything off every time you quit/changed decks.

All of this stems from the reserved list. If wizards abolished the list and reprinted FoW, duals, wasteland, vial, SDT, goyf, etc. etc. then the prices would be fine. This is supply and demand; legacy is a relevant format so people want all the cards for it thus driving the prices. SCG makes it relevant with their 5k series so yeah. I'm just glad I started to invest in legacy before the 5k's started because back then you could get any dual lands for under 50 bucks a pop. FoW was 25 at most. Wasteland was a 10 dollar card. Goyf was 35ish. Vindicate was under 15. SDT was under 5 dollars which was incredibly cheap in retrospect for that awesome card. I wish the card prices were like that again; that was affordable but now underground sea is pushing 100 dollars, all the blue duals are over 70 sans volcanic island, polluted delta being 25 is just wow. Really wish WotC had abolished the reserved list back when it was a highly talked about topic but instead they just strengthened it despite it being obsolete and useless. I would still run my revised dual lands if they reprinted them in foil or black border or something due to how much more pimp they would be due to the low supply. Example: Birds of paradise from M11 is $3. Birds of paradise from beta is over $150. I wonder if reprinting birds every core set until magic died would affect the price of birds of paradise from beta (hint: it wouldn't)

Legacy will go the way of vintage if the reserved list isn't abolished and staples reprinted. WotC doesn't care; they're just a bunch of greedy pigs anyways that only care about 2 formats those being standard and limited. Everything else means nothing to them. Which is sad considering how great a format legacy is and how it's infinitely better than standard, extended, limited, and vintage. WotC could make money off of it but choose not to instead clinging to the reserved list like it's the holy grail or something and if it goes away it will be the end of the world.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

All of this stems from the reserved list. If wizards abolished the list and reprinted FoW, duals, wasteland, vial, SDT, goyf, etc. etc. then the prices would be fine. This is supply and demand; legacy is a relevant format so people want all the cards for it thus driving the prices. SCG makes it relevant with their 5k series so yeah. I'm just glad I started to invest in legacy before the 5k's started because back then you could get any dual lands for under 50 bucks a pop. FoW was 25 at most. Wasteland was a 10 dollar card. Goyf was 35ish. Vindicate was under 15. SDT was under 5 dollars which was incredibly cheap in retrospect for that awesome card. I wish the card prices were like that again; that was affordable but now underground sea is pushing 100 dollars, all the blue duals are over 70 sans volcanic island, polluted delta being 25 is just wow. Really wish WotC had abolished the reserved list back when it was a highly talked about topic but instead they just strengthened it despite it being obsolete and useless. I would still run my revised dual lands if they reprinted them in foil or black border or something due to how much more pimp they would be due to the low supply. Example: Birds of paradise from M11 is $3. Birds of paradise from beta is over $150. I wonder if reprinting birds every core set until magic died would affect the price of birds of paradise from beta (hint: it wouldn't)

Legacy will go the way of vintage if the reserved list isn't abolished and staples reprinted. WotC doesn't care; they're just a bunch of greedy pigs anyways that only care about 2 formats those being standard and limited. Everything else means nothing to them. Which is sad considering how great a format legacy is and how it's infinitely better than standard, extended, limited, and vintage. WotC could make money off of it but choose not to instead clinging to the reserved list like it's the holy grail or something and if it goes away it will be the end of the world.

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Most of the cards you said aren't on the reserve list. In fact, ONLY the duals are on the reserved list. If Wizards doesn't take advantage and reprint these other staples then they either have a good reason for it, or are just dumb.

All of this stems from the reserved list. If wizards abolished the list and reprinted FoW, duals, wasteland, vial, SDT, goyf, etc. etc. then the prices would be fine. This is supply and demand; legacy is a relevant format so people want all the cards for it thus driving the prices. SCG makes it relevant with their 5k series so yeah. I'm just glad I started to invest in legacy before the 5k's started because back then you could get any dual lands for under 50 bucks a pop. FoW was 25 at most. Wasteland was a 10 dollar card. Goyf was 35ish. Vindicate was under 15. SDT was under 5 dollars which was incredibly cheap in retrospect for that awesome card. I wish the card prices were like that again; that was affordable but now underground sea is pushing 100 dollars, all the blue duals are over 70 sans volcanic island, polluted delta being 25 is just wow. Really wish WotC had abolished the reserved list back when it was a highly talked about topic but instead they just strengthened it despite it being obsolete and useless. I would still run my revised dual lands if they reprinted them in foil or black border or something due to how much more pimp they would be due to the low supply. Example: Birds of paradise from M11 is $3. Birds of paradise from beta is over $150. I wonder if reprinting birds every core set until magic died would affect the price of birds of paradise from beta (hint: it wouldn't)

Legacy will go the way of vintage if the reserved list isn't abolished and staples reprinted. WotC doesn't care; they're just a bunch of greedy pigs anyways that only care about 2 formats those being standard and limited. Everything else means nothing to them. Which is sad considering how great a format legacy is and how it's infinitely better than standard, extended, limited, and vintage. WotC could make money off of it but choose not to instead clinging to the reserved list like it's the holy grail or something and if it goes away it will be the end of the world.

Let's take a minute and just take in what's happening...this format is finally becoming real. What all of us old timers have always wanted. Now that it's here people are having sticker shock. Open your eyes! This is the inevitable result of supply and demand not some plot by SCGs. They are a huge force in the market, for sure, but the demand is real and growing. AND this demand is coming smack in the face of a finite supply. If you want a villain look no further then WoTC and their idiotic reserved list.

While Wizards' policy towards the Reserved List certainly increases the price of Legacy, most of the higher prices on SCG's new buylist are actually not on the Reserved List. There are certainly reasons for and reasons against continuing their policy, but I won't belabor the point here.

If you asked me what are the most important cards in the format (other than cheap staples like Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares), I would respond with 1) fetchlands, 2) Wasteland, 3) Force of Will, 4) duals, and 5) Tarmogoyf, roughly in that order. Of those cards, only the dual lands are subject to the reprint policy, but it's not as though SCG's buylist prices for duals (ranging from $20 for Plateau to $70 for Underground Sea) is still well below market value. So it seems incorrect to attribute the higher buylist prices to the Reserved List alone. (As an aside, SCG will buy the original fetchlands for $10-15, but that's considerably considerably below current market value and unlikely to increase the prices further.)

What I'm concerned about is the price of staples for Tier 1 "budget" decks like Goblins and Merfolk. These buylist prices set the price of Wasteland to $30, of Force of Will to $40, of Aether Vial to $10, of Rishadan Port to $25, of Lackey to $10, and of Piledriver to $12.50--and in all likelihood, much higher, because the buylist prices of a reputable dealer like SCG represent the minimum for these cards.

I previously believed that you don't need dual lands to compete in Legacy; your lack of access to them would certainly restrict the options you have available, but Goblins and Merfolk are excellent decks, even if some give them crap. But when you're looking at a minimum of $120 for Wastelands, $40 for Vials, $100 for the Ports, $160 for the Forces, and $90 between the Lackeys and Piledrivers, I can no longer say that there is a competitive budget option available in Legacy (unless you count Dredge, which I personally do not regard as Tier 1).

Those prices above were the ones that really surprised me (along with $100 for Grim Tutor, $25 for Karakas, $25 for Maze of Ith, $10 for Top, $20 for Sneak Attack, $15 for SoFI/SoLS, and $15 for Vindicate). However, there is still hope--none of these cards I just mentioned on the reserved list, so hopefully some reprints can lower the barrier to entry for these decks. In fact, of all the cards on the SCG buy list, only a handful are subject to the reprint policy. Of these, only the duals are extremely important staples and SCG's relatively low buy prices won't contribute significantly to continued increases in their prices (although they can certainly increase due to other factors).

I agree with everyone saying that Star City Games is not to blame for the increased cost of playing this format. I'm very glad that Legacy is a blossoming format, with them playing a huge role in the development. Their buylist prices reflect supply and demand. I'm just lamenting that there is no longer a great budget option available for new players, now that the cost of Goblin and Merfolk staples has shot up so dramatically, but there is no reserved policy that stops Wizards from reprinting any of those staples.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

When you're talking about the sustainability of Legacy, and by extension the game of Magic, "less growth" shouldn't be strived for. Regardless of what you may think of newbies entering the Legacy scene, it's the pot monsters that keep the game (competitive, financial, etc) going, not the top 1% of players.

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This method of thinking is really nothing more than just a bi-product of Star City's dominance on American legacy. There is plenty of evidence to substantiate their growing influence on American Legacy prices, which is in large part due to their growing success of their Open events. They are trying to cash-in on the popularity of Legacy the day after Standard events because they know people will spend their money on playing when they've already driven so far out of town that they might as well invest in another day's worth of Magic. It's enticing, and they're taking advantage of that (which is why their prices continue to rise).

Most people attending these Open events want to make the Invitational, as that is the ultimate goal of anyone investing their time in playing with the highest caliber of players on the biggest stage. This is forcing players to invest more and more into the format - in America - to spend more money and in turn picking up points to qualify for the "Big Event."

Sustainability really has nothing to do with the "pot-monsters" of Legacy right now in America, but rather the growing influence of the Open Series taking place the day after the Standard Open and enticing players who play in arguably the most popular format - Standard - to stay in town one more day and try their hand at playing in a format that continues to explode in popularity. This, along with their Invitational (which now has Legacy written all over it), is driving their prices higher and higher and forcing players willing to participate into spending the money to obtain the necessities of the format or otherwise miss out.

There is no reason Candelabra of Tawnos should be over two-hundred dollars; no reason at all. Scarcity has all but little to do with it. Rather, the secondary market (and I watched this very, very carefully after Alix won Edison with Tide as a miniature "experiment") appears to be heavily influenced by Star City's pricing guidelines. Online retailers and other similar C.C.G. businesses let Star City do the dirty work with their tournaments and in turn mutate their prices to match what S.C. does with theirs. It's true that the Reprint Policy instituted by Wizards has a lot to do with the relative scarcity of cards as time goes on, but the relative value of most Legacy staples (Duals aside) have remained at a constant level since the format's inception - right up until the Open Series began exploding in popularity.

Anyone notice entomb is still at 30?

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

While Wizards' policy towards the Reserved List certainly increases the price of Legacy, most of the higher prices on SCG's new buylist are actually not on the Reserved List. There are certainly reasons for and reasons against continuing their policy, but I won't belabor the point here.

If you asked me what are the most important cards in the format (other than cheap staples like Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares), I would respond with 1) fetchlands, 2) Wasteland, 3) Force of Will, 4) duals, and 5) Tarmogoyf, roughly in that order. Of those cards, only the dual lands are subject to the reprint policy, but it's not as though SCG's buylist prices for duals (ranging from $20 for Plateau to $70 for Underground Sea) is still well below market value. So it seems incorrect to attribute the higher buylist prices to the Reserved List alone. (As an aside, SCG will buy the original fetchlands for $10-15, but that's considerably considerably below current market value and unlikely to increase the prices further.)

What I'm concerned about is the price of staples for Tier 1 "budget" decks like Goblins and Merfolk. These buylist prices set the price of Wasteland to $30, of Force of Will to $40, of Aether Vial to $10, of Rishadan Port to $25, of Lackey to $10, and of Piledriver to $12.50--and in all likelihood, much higher, because the buylist prices of a reputable dealer like SCG represent the minimum for these cards.

I previously believed that you don't need dual lands to compete in Legacy; your lack of access to them would certainly restrict the options you have available, but Goblins and Merfolk are excellent decks, even if some give them crap. But when you're looking at a minimum of $120 for Wastelands, $40 for Vials, $100 for the Ports, $160 for the Forces, and $90 between the Lackeys and Piledrivers, I can no longer say that there is a competitive budget option available in Legacy (unless you count Dredge, which I personally do not regard as Tier 1).

Those prices above were the ones that really surprised me (along with $100 for Grim Tutor, $25 for Karakas, $25 for Maze of Ith, $10 for Top, $20 for Sneak Attack, $15 for SoFI/SoLS, and $15 for Vindicate). However, there is still hope--none of these cards I just mentioned on the reserved list, so hopefully some reprints can lower the barrier to entry for these decks. In fact, of all the cards on the SCG buy list, only a handful are subject to the reprint policy. Of these, only the duals are extremely important staples and SCG's relatively low buy prices won't contribute significantly to continued increases in their prices (although they can certainly increase due to other factors).

I agree with everyone saying that Star City Games is not to blame for the increased cost of playing this format. I'm very glad that Legacy is a blossoming format, with them playing a huge role in the development. Their buylist prices reflect supply and demand. I'm just lamenting that there is no longer a great budget option available for new players, now that the cost of Goblin and Merfolk staples has shot up so dramatically, but there is no reserved policy that stops Wizards from reprinting any of those staples.

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This is pretty much what I'm thinking. SCG is just doing what is smart for them in a business sense. If you want to get mad at them for providing a circuit of high-scale legacy tournaments (and sometimes taking losses) and buying Legacy cards at fair prices, I'd hate to have you as a patron.

Only the duals are essential that are on the reprint list. The other cards listed and essential to the Legacy format are NOT on the reserved list (at least those top 5 that lordofthepit has named). Even if the duals are removed form the reserved list, or if the reserved list is abolished, there is no guarantee that there would be a large scale reprinting of the duals. After all, force of will is worth more than almost all the duals and still has not seen a reprint despite not being on the reserved list.

As for merfolk and goblins having a higher cost of entry for newer players, I see no problem with that. Merfolk and Goblins are top tier decks. If you told me that the cheapest standard deck was tier 1, I'd say thats a good thing. When you note that several of the cards are also able to be used in MULTIPLE tier 1 decks, the costs can be justified.

It is my hope that many of these staples are reprinted, but if it does not happen, I have a feeling that Legacy will be just fine.

Also, what is a "pot-monster"?

I think that the decision for them to start doing heavy buying is more of a "Go big or Go home" mentality. They want to push the format they need the cards to sell. To get the cards in though they need to raise the price for the buys. Its going to be a up going loop. just watch...this time next year...+$200 duals.

@ Hollywood -

If you noticed, my comment wasn't about the prices/cost of entry, it was solely about the notion that a smaller Legacy scene with less growth = desireable as it's more "intimate" as workingdude described it. SCG and their Open Series influencing card prices is an entirely different matter from "we don't want new players, we're happy with the same group of guys we've had for the last X years... go away".

@ workingdude

I've been pretty active in the fighting game community for the last 7-8 years (Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike in the mid 2000's, Super Street Fighter 4 now, I'm Arsenal on shoryuken.com). The term "pot monster" is a derogatory term used in the fighting game community for those tournament entrants who are nothing more than pot money as they stand no chance of placing in the top 8 money spots. The term "stream monster" is also used as those who watch the tournament on streams, and comment about how "pro" they are and how they could've won had they been at the tournament.

I've always been against the reprint policy, as I had much to lose and not much to gain from a massive reprint, but this is ridiculous. I thought $40 Force of Wills were on the high side, and boy was I wrong. I though SCG was selling Wastelands at 30, not buying. Holy cow.

Even just 2-3 years ago, Wastelands were $9-11 a pop, which was really nice, and Duals were a lot more reasonable. Seriously, I'm not liking where this is going. No other store is as large as Star City, and Star City controls prices, plain and simple. It's the same as if I had $1,000,000 sitting around and I posted a Legacy buylist all over the internet. If I was paying $12 on Tops, what would Top actually be "worth"? $15? $18? The point is, with this kind of buying power, you can artificially or in actuality raise/lower/control prices.

Is it time to reprint select staples? Most definitely. I've been opposed to reprints for a long time. A LONG time. I'm one of the guys who usually tells the kids who can't afford Legacy to get jobs (not always, but I've long been in favour of no reprinting). When I start getting itchy, it's bad. I think cards like Brainstorms, Swords, Tops, Vials, Wastelands and those really widespread staples need to get reprinted and bring the price down to where they were in 2009. In November 2009, you could get Mint Revised Seas for $50. I remember because I was thinking about buying them. That January, they jumped up. My point is, I don't want to drop the necessary money to buy another set at this point in time since it's WAY too expensive. I'm not saying duals need to be reprinted, but I think certain cards do need to be. I'm not sure how far to go with this, but my point stands: SCG and Wizards need to work together to get more players and bring the initial cost down.

-Matt

I remember less than 2 years ago, when I first got into eternal, I bought my set of Forces from a friend for $82 and a bag of stolen McDonalds.

Seas were 40 bucks, 50 if they were particularly nice, and wastes were $10.

What the fuck happened?

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

What's the point of running these events if you're going to raise the price of a card like Wasteland to $40.00 or more, in turn forcing other businesses to raise it to that price, when it really is and should be only a $10.00 card at best?

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I think your opinion on the matter is colored by the memory of the card as a 5 dollar card, and considered pricey on account of being uncommon at that. (or having 9 of them and trading them off to your friends for nothing so they could get their play-sets together and who really care it's not like it's a rare.) Yeah $40 seems shocking. But man, a huge percentage of the field needs 4, and there are only so many in circulation.