Team Grixis (UBr tempo)

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Originally Posted by kiblast

Great! a tempo deck filled with 2/1 and 2/2 dudes @cc2 , which doesn't play ''situational counterspells'' and Stifle. In the meanwhile, Tarmogoyf.

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What, you think Spell Snare is what stops Tarmogoyf alone? You still play Daze and FoW, and with black it's not like you have no outs (removal, pre-emptive discard, etc.). Also, Delver and potentially Tombstalker don't give a fuck about Goyf.

Landing this guy and cascading into a thoughtseize/inquisition has a similar function as trying to hold up mana for Pierce/Snare.

I don't think Stifle is quite the card it used to be and have dropped it from my RUG and TA lists.

I think this guy can see play in UBG Team America, which plays Goyf itself. But I wouldn't discount the idea of Grixis, because burn and the SB options it lends are still incredibly powerful.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

What, you think Spell Snare is what stops Tarmogoyf alone? You still play Daze and FoW, and with black it's not like you have no outs (removal, pre-emptive discard, etc.). Also, Delver and potentially Tombstalker don't give a fuck about Goyf.

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Well theorically fow and daze stop goyf as well, but they have drawbacks. Snare just needs to kp 1 mana open which is anyway good since you'll always bluff stifle.
Removal are nice in this format, but Snare is not dead against combo or control. And for 3cc creatures you have Daze/Fow. Just think as for Threshold.

Stalker might not give a fuck about Goyf but comes down 2/3 turns later.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Landing this guy and cascading into a thoughtseize/inquisition has a similar function as trying to hold up mana for Pierce/Snare.

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This is true, except that you have no control on what you are cascading in, maybe you need the removal and you flip the discard, etc. Is not that you are playing RUG Faeries/ Goodstuff and you're casting Bloodbraided Elf which can only flip bombs or cards that are never dead (read Goyf, Bolt, bs, Ponder, Ancestral Vision). If you play discard and black removal, you may flip the incorrect or a dead card.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

I don't think Stifle is quite the card it used to be and have dropped it from my RUG and TA lists.

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This is your opinion, mine is that stifle is super good.

CREATURES 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Vexing Devil
3 CASCADE NINJA
2 Vendilion Clique

INSTANTS 23
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Force
2 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Countersquall
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolical edict
1 Go for the Throat

SORCERIES 6
3 Thought seize
2 Chain lightning
1 Reforge the Soul

LANDS 18
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands


I think he will fit nicely in my grixis list. I just switched out Tombstalker and a land, but stalker will probably end up main and clique in the sb.

Sadly, we've been misled. The new cascade guy apparently costs UG, not UB. Thus, Grixis will have to wait for something else...

edit: And to add insult to injury, the card costs 1UG, not UG. He may find a home in that semi-competitive RUG deck with the Noble Hierarchs, Jace, and Bloodbraid Elves, but obviously he is very unlikely to see play in any sort of Legacy tempo deck.

Did everyone see Caleb Durward's article here:
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...erfect-stifle/

He talks about the following list:

Main Deck
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Darkblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Forked Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Snuff Out
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

Sideboard
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Force of Will
2 Perish
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize

I like this list so I looked up this thread. I'm looking for a deck to beat Sneak/Show and I like the discard here. And the clock. Is anyone still playing this deck? How are the msrchups against RUG, Maverick, Blade, etc?

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Originally Posted by Holden1669

Did everyone see Caleb Durward's article here:
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...erfect-stifle/

He talks about the following list:

Main Deck
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Darkblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Forked Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Snuff Out
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

Sideboard
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Force of Will
2 Perish
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize

I like this list so I looked up this thread. I'm looking for a deck to beat Sneak/Show and I like the discard here. And the clock. Is anyone still playing this deck? How are the msrchups against RUG, Maverick, Blade, etc?

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Match-up against rug, mav, and blade is pretty good in my testing.

This deck showed up at a local GPT Atlanta and the guy went x-0. The deck is a nightmare for combo decks and seems to have a lot of game vs. other Delver builds as well. He ended up beating the same UR Delver deck twice through 4x Price of Progress which was pretty solid. He told me after the event that the meta is extremely unprepared for Tombstalker which seems like a fairly accurate statement overall.

I think this is the best deck to beat combo without actually playing combo. The problem is that it tends to suffer against other popular decks -- e.g. Esper Blade has been quite difficult in my experience since we don't have Mongoose and Goyf. That said, the SB could be adjusted to deal with problem matchups.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

I think this is the best deck to beat combo without actually playing combo. The problem is that it tends to suffer against other popular decks -- e.g. Esper Blade has been quite difficult in my experience since we don't have Mongoose and Goyf. That said, the SB could be adjusted to deal with problem matchups.

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Thats why I sb 2 perish and 2 dread of night

I'm currently testing Caleb's list, and it's a real pleasure to play with.

I tested against Mav and TT, been positive for both.

I didn't play against Esper, is it really a nightmare? You talked about Dread of Night, do you have an updated SB? I'm not convinced by EE, and think that Caleb's SB is missing Smah (for Batterskull), and another card for Dredge.

Dread of Night is a possibility, and so is Sulfur Elemental. You want to negate Esper's spirit tokens, and they can also come in against Maverick to kill Moms and Thalia.

For artifact removal, there is Crush, Shattering Spree, and (maybe) Smash to Smithereens. I do think you would want at least two pieces of artifact removal.

Dredge has a tough time beating Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb. You can also play a mixture of those along with Grafdigger's Cage.

I'm interested in this deck too, it seems pretty damn solid to me. What is it's matchup like vs UR delver lists?

So is the guy on the right a potential candidate as a 1-of?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oKJQV6Y2BJ...Spoilers+2.jpg

Could be the 10th creature imo.

I think Phantasm is just too weak. No pressure before turn 5/6 at least.

I tested the deck today and have been defeated by Sneak:
- preside => 0/8. Nothing to do, too many Back-up, not enough pressure, denial not effective.
- postside => 1/5. Not much better, again Nothing to do...


Quite sad of results against Sneak, which seems to be "the" new DtB. Have to add more SB slots against it. I tested with (in SB):
- 2 thoightseize
- 2 REB
- 1 pierce
- 3 surgical / extirpate
- 1 FoW

I think Duress is probably better than Thoughtseize, since it can't be Misdirected. Although, Leyline of Sanctity will threaten the discard plan if they choose to play it.

I'd probably shift to Flusterstorm/Envelop if I could.

I'll probably switch MD IoK to Thoughtseize, and replace SB Thoughtseize to Duress. It probably will reduce the MU against TT, but it seems to be mandatory.

Concerning Fluster, I'm not a big fan of it because it is "just" a spell pierce against Show, and it does nothing against sneak without another backup.

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Originally Posted by klaus

So is the guy on the right a potential candidate as a 1-of?
Could be the 10th creature imo.

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Running 10/11 creatures even without him seems essential because none is shrouded. The card seems very situational and bad versus like mono colored, combo and control/non aggressive decks.

As I am leaking only very few cards I might give this deck a second chance.

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Originally Posted by Watanabe

I think Phantasm is just too weak. No pressure before turn 5/6 at least.

I tested the deck today and have been defeated by Sneak:
- preside => 0/8. Nothing to do, too many Back-up, not enough pressure, denial not effective.
- postside => 1/5. Not much better, again Nothing to do...


Quite sad of results against Sneak, which seems to be "the" new DtB. Have to add more SB slots against it. I tested with (in SB):
- 2 thoightseize
- 2 REB
- 1 pierce
- 3 surgical / extirpate
- 1 FoW

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That's interesting. I have only played two matches against Sneak and Show with this deck so far but I won each of them 2-1 and thought the matchup was tough but winnable. Though I guess that in the games I won pretty much everything worked. Stifle and Wasteland hit his lands, Spell Pierce and Force countered a couple of key spells, and Thoughtseize made sure he couldn't recover before Delver killed him. Pithing needle on Sneak Attack was great as well, and forced him to dig for Show and Tell. And the games I lost... I just kind of lost horribly with no chance at all. So I guess that happens sometimes against that deck.

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Originally Posted by Holden1669

That's interesting. I have only played two matches against Sneak and Show with this deck so far but I won each of them 2-1 and thought the matchup was tough but winnable. Though I guess that in the games I won pretty much everything worked. Stifle and Wasteland hit his lands, Spell Pierce and Force countered a couple of key spells, and Thoughtseize made sure he couldn't recover before Delver killed him. Pithing needle on Sneak Attack was great as well, and forced him to dig for Show and Tell. And the games I lost... I just kind of lost horribly with no chance at all. So I guess that happens sometimes against that deck.

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I do pretty well against sneakshow with grixis too.

I'm really interested in the list presented by Caleb, and I started to test it a bit. I really feel like putting 4 Stalkers, and Clique didn't really convince me (even though I love it in Bant for instance). It seems a bit weak for 1UU. Also, I LOVE the sideboard options given by black and red.

Have you guys tested other creatures for slots 9-10, assuming a build with 4 Delver and 4 Stalkers? The ones I can think of are:
- Snapcaster : I'm still not convinced about its efficiency in a Tempo build (seems a bit slow, and 2/1 is not very frightening). I didn't test it extensively so I may be wrong.
- Sulfur Elemental : might be considered MD since it's good in the meta, and we need guys for the beatdown.
- Clique : too fragile for 1UU?
- Spellstutter sprite : er 1/1 ?
- Porcelain Legionnaire : half-joking. In fact, I would be interested in your thoughts about it. I didn't test it yet, but 3/1 first strike for 2 seems ok. Kills big guys coupled with a bolt too.
- Fettergeist: ok I stop now.

What do you think?