Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
The big upside of Xantid is that it comes down so fast. If they can handle it with jittie we have already played our most important spells. Resolving our first Enchantress effect is the big thing. Everything else is way less important.
City of Solitude has imo the same problem as Choke. It comes down too late. At this point we probably got an enchantress effect countered or we had to wait until round 3 or four to even try to cast it.
I even was thinking about boarding in Mindbreak Traps against Control and boarding some other 2 cards.
Trap could help us to resolve this one important enchantress effect. It might look crazy, but if we have some in our side for Combo we could bring them in vs Control, too.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
unicoerner
The big upside of Xantid is that it comes down so fast. If they can handle it with jittie we have already played our most important spells. Resolving our first Enchantress effect is the big thing. Everything else is way less important.
City of Solitude has imo the same problem as Choke. It comes down too late. At this point we probably got an enchantress effect countered or we had to wait until round 3 or four to even try to cast it.
I even was thinking about boarding in Mindbreak Traps against Control and boarding some other 2 cards.
Trap could help us to resolve this one important enchantress effect. It might look crazy, but if we have some in our side for Combo we could bring them in vs Control, too.
unicoerner, don't get me wrong Xantid Swarm does show some potential I just don't feel it is the best fit. One of the strangest parts of this deck is it blanks opponents removal, and Xantid gives them a target. It also has to attack so anything flying could give it trouble. Please do not take my comments as a reason not to test I have been wrong before, but I do feel there are better options.
If you want something that can affect the resolution of an Argothian Enchantress turn two I would suggest Autumn's Veil Playing with this card allows you to still play your T1 ramp/growth and then T2 Arothian with Veil (if needed.) This way you force your opponent to 1. have the counterspell, and 2. have back-up.
I have thought about this card for the sideboard for a while, but I have never tested it. In the same vein I have played a version that main decked Spell Pierce. This was in a build where I was playing pain rainbow lands and the damage to stop stuff didn't seem worth it in the end. Now that we are on a much better mana base Spell Pierce may be a strong option again as it will help us force through our important pieces and/or also slow our opponent whichever yields greater results for us at the time. It does slow down reanimator.
I suggested City of Solitude not as a card to play before the enchantress, but to play whenever to draw the counter or shut off that plan. It is decent. As you have said in your post you have resolved a Choke, well if it were a City your problems would be solved. What I do not like is that it can get pierced fairly easily and doesn't draw out the hard counter. It's still a solid option though.
What I am going to try is something like the list below (I made the changes bold):
Main Deck (60)
Enchantress Engine
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Green Sun's Zenith*
Ramp
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
Card Selection Engine - Improved (plus items with an *)
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Abundant Growth
Lock
4 Energy Field
2 Sterling Grove*
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Pithing Needle
4 Rest in Peace
Wins
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Words of Wind
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
Mana
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest*
7 Forest
2 Windswept Heath*
2 Karakas
1 Island
2 Serra's Sanctum
Sideboard (15)
4 Multani's Presence
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sterling Grove
This list doesn't look to force anything through, but it looks to play the numbers game and win when your opponent is out of counters, or through Emrakul.
Control decks can not counter everything, and this list looks to sneak through carpets and Multani's to keep the pressure mounting to finally break through the counter wall. Both of those cards are easily cast and can sneak under Daze & Spell Pierce quite well to form an alternative draw engine until we stick an enchantress effect. This list does not aim to resolve the first enchantress, but it aims to resolve an enchantress. Through the improved card selection engine we should be able to present threats to draw out the counters and stack the deck to draw into more must counters. When I have time I will test it, but I think it can work.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
@Unicoerner: Try Xantid Swarm and tell us the result.
Spell Pierce: it can be a solution to protect mains enchantments and a weapon versus combo.
@Freggle: I counted 61 cards in your deck :smile: .
You prefer Mirri's Guile instead of Enlightened Tutor ?
I don't think Mirri is better. I suggest x2 Mirri's Guile and x2 Enlightened Tutor.
Why do you keep Sigil ?
Have you already try Words of wind with Cloud of Faeries ? You need only to have :3::g::u: on 2 lands to combo.
I have finished MUs VS Storm and OmniShow with my last list:
Storm: 30/70 - 45/55 (Side : x1 chalice of the void, x1 Mindbreak trap, x1 Canonist, x1 Rule of law, x1 nevermore)
OmniShow: 20/80 - 40/60 (Side : x1 chalice of the void, x1 Oblivion Ring, x1 nevermore, x1 humility)
I can't win the first round without very big luck (like kill T3 with Helm and the opponent has no counter/discard and no luck).
Then, even with side, Storm/OmniShow can managed them with discard or others cards like Shattering Spree.
Both doesn't like Chalice with 1 and/or 2 counters.
Storm:
This deck is very fast and discard turn 1 or before start combo so even we have a side card in start hand, it's not enough.
And even with Canonist on the battlefield, I'm often too slow to kill my opponent before he get a spell to manage Canonist and start combo.
Maybe the solution is LeyLine:w: MD or in additional side.
OmniShow:
When Omniscience is on the battlefield, the game is lost...We need to have lot of Oblivion Ring to remove it during Show&Tell, put a Emrakul is completely useless vs Omniscience. A chalice with 1 counter help to slow the opponent and a chalice with 2 counters avoid him to cast Burning Wish to get Emrakul (with Time of need) or to get storm kill.
Cast Nevermore for Show&Tell can win the game but it will always countered.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
My short answer is yes. My long answer... I don't think the two are comparable / perform the same function.
In the actual Established Enchantress thread. We discussed the benefits and drawbacks of Energy Field vs. Solitary Confinement and although both have a lot of overlap we realized that each have their own unique pros and cons and I deemed that in my developmental lists that both should be run.
I feel that Mirri's guile and Enlightened Tutor will have a similar outcome. Initially I played Enlightened Tutor in my :u: enchantress deck. I liked it, but I had grown to hate the card disadvantage, and the way it didn't work well with a fragile Energy Field.
I began to test Mirri's Guile and was taken back as to how good it was. I feel it allows the deck to avoid mulliganing a lot (a common problem for enchantress decks.) It also helps stabilize Solitary Confinement, and makes / made the choice to pay for Elephant Grass easier (knowing what was coming.
On MTG Salvation people talk about the strongest opener for the standard GWx list is T1 growth, T2 Argothian --> Guile. It is very strong, and smooths out the deck quite a bit. I feel the lists that I played with guile vs. the lists I played without that the lists with were overall more sound, and "failed" less (a string of bad top decks costing a match)
I used to think Mirri's Guile was nothing but a durdle card, but I have to eat my words / thoughts on that as I have been proven wrong in testing it.
...but to answer your question do I like or feel that Mirri's Guile is more important to the deck than Enlightened Tutor? Yes, but a mix like confinement / E. Field is likely the most correct.
Over the course of a match or a tournament it is my estimation that Mirri's Guile will do more "work" than an Enlightened Tutor but be far more subtle about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
Why do you keep Sigil ?
I keep Sigil of the Empty Throne because if it is not interacted with on the stack and you have a Sterling Grove out you will almost certainly win as it is very difficult to deal with. I like that it can not be affected by revokers / needles. I think it's good to have an attacking wincon and a targeted wincon at the very least. Emrakul can be the sole attacker, but I'm trying to find ways to close out games faster. It should be noted that I do question it though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
I know of the other :ug: lists out there, but I'm not looking to go infinite with it, just be annoying and bounce controls stuff. It's likely wrong, but I wanted to put something different in for Oblivion Ring since under confinement you don't want to see it usually. I want to find a way to get at least 3 if not 4 o-rings in the board for show and tell / Hypergenesis decks, but not main I don't think.
As for the 61st card. Yeah I messed up. I'm genuinely concerned with my reading comprehension / writing / communication lately. Sorry for the oversight.
For Storm I would recommend Leyline of Sanctity. This is another card I'm not particularly fond of because of it's variance, but I do think it is our best weapon. Paired with Sterling Grove it's quite good, not unbeatable, but good.
@Dihensoeur - Why all of the "1 of's" in both you main and board?
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
My short answer is yes. My long answer... I don't think the two are comparable / perform the same function...
Ok! It's true that Mirri's Guile is a strong card T1/T2.
Have you already try Ancestral Knowledge ? An Enchantress player suggest it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
I keep
Sigil of the Empty Throne because if it is not interacted with on the stack and you have a
Sterling Grove out you will almost certainly win as it is very difficult to deal with. I like that it can not be affected by revokers / needles. I think it's good to have an attacking wincon and a targeted wincon at the very least. Emrakul can be the sole attacker, but I'm trying to find ways to close out games faster. It should be noted that I do question it though.
Sigil of the Empty Throne still too slow and give targets for removal (like Xantid Swarm). It can't be affected by revokers / needles but by Stifle and revokers / needles can be easily managed by Enchantress (Oring/Equipoise/Seal). Ok Sigil put tokens even enchantments are countered that's cool. But I don't think that's enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
For Storm I would recommend
Leyline of Sanctity. This is another card I'm not particularly fond of because of it's variance, but I do think it is our best weapon. Paired with
Sterling Grove it's quite good, not unbeatable, but good.
I already tested Leyline + Sterling Grove VS Storm and it doesn't work. You need to win to have x1 Leyline in hand and put 2 Sterling Grove before Storm start and the probability to do it is very small. And even you have all put, it can win with Hibernation or Empty the warren. Leyline can protect us from discard to put T2 a Canonist to get time to kill him before he manage our Canonist, I think this is actually the best solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
@Dihensoeur - Why all of the "1 of's" in both you main and board?
To have a little solution MD and to reinforce it with sideboard.
I'm changing completely my deck and sideboard to improve MU vs OmniShow. I'm testing Cloud of faeries with :u:Words.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
I have. I really like the card, but at the time (again the pain lands build) it felt like too much durdleing. I still don't think it's the right fit, but if it would be it would be like a "1 of" like you Sylvan Library in control list, and not a 4 or feature as it's utility only comes in mid to late game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
Sigil of the Empty Throne still too slow and give targets for removal (like
Xantid Swarm). It can't be affected by revokers / needles but by
Stifle and revokers / needles can be easily managed by Enchantress (Oring/Equipoise/Seal). Ok Sigil put tokens even enchantments are countered that's cool. But I don't think that's enough.
You may be right. If anything the more and more I play this deck I think it should be Luminarch Ascension or Hoofprints of the Stagif I wanted that type of effect. The 5 CMC of Sigil is too easily beat with a mid game Pierce.
I'm considering that switch OR just another Helm of Obedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
I already tested Leyline + Sterling Grove VS Storm and it doesn't work. You need to win to have x1 Leyline in hand and put 2
Sterling Grove before Storm start and the probability to do it is very small. And even you have all put, it can win with
Hibernation or
Empty the warren. Leyline can protect us from discard to put T2 a Canonist to get time to kill him before he manage our Canonist, I think this is actually the best solution.
What storm deck are you testing against, and how do they beat this consistently against you? Leyline is also strong against discard and sacrifice effects so it fill many roles. Again, I know the card can be a little high variance, but what is the alternative?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
I'm changing completely my deck and sideboard to improve MU vs OmniShow. I'm testing Cloud of faeries with :u:Words.
Keep us posted. Omni-show comes down to 4 Oblivion Rings in the board I feel. I like Oblivion Ring over Detention Sphere at the moment because we can more consistently hard cast it when we face Chalice of the Void.dec
4 Ring in the board, and 4 Mirri's Guile make the odds pretty good you'll have one in hand as early as turn 2.
Probability of having a Mirri's Guile or Oblivion Ring in hand turn 1. 65.3593571031819%
Probability of finding one by turn 2 if you on the draw and resolve Guile: 21.737556561086%
* Please double check my math I'm using the online calculator here
If the deck does run Enlightened Tutor paths to Oblivion Ring increase.
I have been testing (2) Enlightened Tutor with (4) Mirri's Guile and have been very happy with the mix.
I'm very interested in learning more of how to mathematically approach the card mix to find the optimal tune of various builds. I have some leads with friends as to how I should approach this, but if anyone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate this. (I'd like to figure in Guile triggers and fetch shuffles so yeah it's currently way beyond me)
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
I think Leyline/Grove is ok against Combo. Having said that, I've lost in a tourney turn 2 to ANT despite having both in play. Ad Nauseum into double bounce.. dead. Made me wonder why I bothered. Leyline happens to be good against other decks running Thoughtseize anyways, so there's no reason not to play it vs combo I suppose. Something like Mind Break trap would probably catch them off guard better, depends on your meta if you can justify the space for it though, since its narrow.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheSleeper
I think Leyline/Grove is ok against Combo. Having said that, I've lost in a tourney turn 2 to ANT despite having both in play. Ad Nauseum into double bounce.. dead. Made me wonder why I bothered. Leyline happens to be good against other decks running Thoughtseize anyways, so there's no reason not to play it vs combo I suppose. Something like Mind Break trap would probably catch them off guard better, depends on your meta if you can justify the space for it though, since its narrow.
I'm not ANT expert, but from reading the established thread on this forum I think ANT lists with double bounce are fairly rare. However, given your meta I would ask are you also running (3) Pithing Needle? I think if you pre-game Leyline and Turn 1 Needle you should be okay and even better on a turn 2 Sterling Grove.
Edit: I forgot for a second that Needle doesn't work on LED.
Is that a nutz draw? Yes. ...but (again not an expert) isn't a turn 2 double bounce draw a nutz draw for ANT?
I think this is a better plan because they expect to play through counter magic and run a mess of targeted discard / Silence effects. They also don't run any symmetrical draw 7's (to my knowledge.) So I see the success Mindbreak Trap seems equally if not more weak. ...I do see that Gainsay's WoW list did run Mindbreak Trap so maybe I'm wrong. I still need to test Gainsay's list to understand the interactions better.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
I don't believe in Leyline+Grove to beat Storm (too slow and to difficult to put 2 grove). ANT can reuse bounce with Ill-Gotten Gains and has often 2 or more bounce in side.
My suggest :
- x4 Leyline to prevent of discard
- x1 Canonist to stop storm and gain time before he manages it. Canonist can be put get with tutor T1 and put T2.
- x1 Rule of law to stop storm and to force opponent to manage Canonist AND Rule of law (that are need differents cards to be managed)
- x2 Chalice of the void : Chalice with 1 counter quickly can slow ANT and Chalice with 2 counters "kill" ANT (because all ANT's tutors cost 2)
My strategy is to slow him and kill him as fast as possible with Helm.
Mindbreak trap can be a solution, but be careful of Silence.
OmniShow:
I think too that ORing is the best solution with some Nevermore to consume counterspell.
Faeries + Word :u: :
I think this combo work only if the deck is only focused on the combo like Enchantress TOP8.
For the moment, I prefer Helm.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
I don't believe in Leyline+Grove to beat Storm (too slow and to difficult to put 2 grove). ANT can reuse bounce with
Ill-Gotten Gains and has often 2 or more bounce in side.
My suggest :
- x4 Leyline to prevent of discard
- x1
Canonist to stop storm and gain time before he manages it. Canonist can be put get with tutor T1 and put T2.
- x1
Rule of law to stop storm and to force opponent to manage Canonist AND Rule of law (that are need differents cards to be managed)
- x2
Chalice of the void : Chalice with 1 counter quickly can slow ANT and Chalice with 2 counters "kill" ANT (because all ANT's tutors cost 2)
My strategy is to slow him and kill him as fast as possible with Helm.
Mindbreak trap can be a solution, but be careful of
Silence.
OmniShow:
I think too that ORing is the best solution with some
Nevermore to consume counterspell.
Faeries + Word :u: :
I think this combo work only if the deck is only focused on the combo like Enchantress TOP8.
For the moment, I prefer Helm.
@ANT MU - I don't agree with shutting off our own engine in an attempt to stop our opponent.
I think it's good we agree that Leyline of Sanctity is the best card out there to combat discard (amongst other things) and that we should pack 4 in the sideboard.
I think we also agree that we should be packing (4) Oblivion Ring in the sideboard to combat Show and Tell based combo decks & Chalice of the Void decks (amongst other randoms.) That would leave us with (7) remaining slots to play with.
Of these (7) I pretty firmly believe that at least (3) should be given to Carpet of Flowers to swap in over Wild Growth for mana advantage over :u: decks. That gives us (4) total question slots.
The more and more I think about this I feel that 1-3 of these slots (depending on how many are already main) should be for more Green Sun's Zenith to either bring the total count to 3 or 4.
This will give us the most redundancy to push through an early enchantress effect against control.
The last few should be Pithing Needle in my mind. This card can always do something to varying degrees of success. Mainly it can cut off a number of commonly played sweepers like Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, or any plansewaker.
Against Maverick it can shut off Qusali Pridemadge, Karakas (Emrakul), Maze of Ith
Against :u: WoW Enchantress it can name Words of Wind
...I can go through a number of MU's where the card is really good (which I will at some point) but that is beside the point.
I think Chalice of the Void is a good card but a bit narrow in our uses. If I were to play it against ANT I'd drop it for 0. To cut off all of their free storm, and color fixing mana.
Vs. ANT we/I already run (2) Sterling Grove main to combat random what not, or become a bad-ish tutor.
We also main deck (4) Rest in Peace severely limiting Cabal Ritual and Past in Flames
We can drop Pithing Needle on fetches T1 to increase the disruption.
Then we have Solitary Confinement to hide behind if we slowed them down enough.
To me that is plenty. Our nuts opener vs. them would be pre-game Leyline, T1 Needle (fetch of choice- Delta?), T2 RIP or Sterling Grove
If I wanted to experiment I might try (1) Taiga main and (1-2) Blood Moon in the board.
Then you could go Pre-game Leyline, T1 Ramp/Growth, T2 Moon if you had the nuts, but your worse off against High Tide if you go for that plan and it requires more card to fall your way for that to work.
I would not cut off your 1's with Chalice, and I would not cut off our draw engine with Ethersworn either, because you are limiting your ability to win. ...but that is just me.
Also, against control - Emrakul has been proven as a reliable win condition vs. them, however just wait until you can go infinite with Karakas so you don't get board swept (if you have RIP out.) Pithing Needle on Wasteland is acceptable in this MU after EE.
EDIT:
Here is where I currently am with my 75:
Maindeck
Creatures (5)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Argothian Enchantress
Enchantments (30)
Ramp
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Wild Growth
Consistency
2 Abundant Growth
2 Sterling Grove
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Enchantress's Presence
Disruption
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
Alternative Win
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
Artifacts (2)
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
Instants (2)
2 Enlightened Tutor
Sorceries (2)
2 Green Sun's Zenith
Lands (19)
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
7 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 City of Brass
1 Island
Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sterling Grove
General Sideboarding:
Generic Blue Control: -3 Wild Growth -2 Sterling Grove -1 Enlightened Tutor +3 Carpet of Flowers +2 Green Sun's Zenith +1 Pithing Needle
Generic Black Disruption -2 Sterling Grove -2 Abundant Growth -1 Enlightened Tutor +4 Leyline of Sanctity +1 Pithing Needle
Generic Green Sun's Aggro -2 Abundant Growth +1 Pithing Needle +1 Sterling Grove
Generic Show and Tell -3 Wild Growth -2 Sterling Grove -1 Pithing Needle -1 Green Sun's Zenith +3 Carpet of Flowers + 4 Oblivion Ring
...I can detail more if interested.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
Of these (7) I pretty firmly believe that at least (3) should be given to
Carpet of Flowers to swap in over
Wild Growth for mana advantage over :u: decks. That gives us (4) total question slots.
The more and more I think about this I feel that 1-3 of these slots (depending on how many are already main) should be for more
Green Sun's Zenith to either bring the total count to 3 or 4.
This will give us the most redundancy to push through an early enchantress effect against control.
I don't know if it's the best strategy VS control. We have always the plan Replenish that we should not forget. It can be a good strategy vs control, :b: disrupt, :g::b: destruction and artifact destruction. And we can use chalice with 1 counter that control doesn't appreciate.
But it's true that Carpet of flowers allows to ramp very quickly (no place actually in my sideboard for it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
If I wanted to experiment I might try (1)
Taiga main and (1-2)
Blood Moon in the board.
For me Back to basics is better than Blood Moon. It paralyzes the opponent instead of Blood Moon for which opponent responses with fetch to get basic land and use non basic land as uncolor mana and so can always play many spells.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
I would not cut off your 1's with Chalice, and I would not cut off our draw engine with Ethersworn either, because you are limiting your ability to win. ...but that is just me.
Helm allows us to kill in the turn and it's an artifact so it isn't affected by Ethersworn Canonist and we can tutor it during the opponent's turn. (We can kill with Ethersworn too :D ).
We need to participate in many tournaments to really test our deck ^_^.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Look at this two lists. Top1 and top4 in a 42 man tournament.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=69595
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=69598
IMHO, there are too many helms on both (I´d rather have one more win con), but props to them.
Like to see this deck making good results. I´ve been an enchantress player since legacy is legacy and is good to see different builds.:smile:
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
manugl84
Thanks you for your links! I discovered a good combo : Web of Inertia + Rest in Peace. With this, we can stop aggro but stop Emrakul too! So no annihilator effect!
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
[QUOTE=AlmostGrown;680646]How good were the Living Wishes for you? I'm skeptical at a Wishboard in any deck outside of "true" combo, but it looks really good in this deck.[/QUOTE
I like the wishboard a lot. Has anyone ever considered a cavern of souls in the s.b.? I think it would help a lot In the blue match ups to land our critical enchantress,even though I know this build isn't as focused on the engine itself.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jjuday25
I like the wishboard a lot. Has anyone ever considered a cavern of souls in the s.b.? I think it would help a lot In the blue match ups to land our critical enchantress,even though I know this build isn't as focused on the engine itself.
Already considered. But I have no place in sideboard to add lands/creatures and no place MD to add Living Wish. I don't believe in living wish.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
I don't believe in Leyline+Grove to beat Storm (too slow and to difficult to put 2 grove). ANT can reuse bounce with
Ill-Gotten Gains and has often 2 or more bounce in side.
My suggest :
- x4 Leyline to prevent of discard
- x1
Canonist to stop storm and gain time before he manages it. Canonist can be put get with tutor T1 and put T2.
- x1
Rule of law to stop storm and to force opponent to manage Canonist AND Rule of law (that are need differents cards to be managed)
- x2
Chalice of the void : Chalice with 1 counter quickly can slow ANT and Chalice with 2 counters "kill" ANT (because all ANT's tutors cost 2)
My strategy is to slow him and kill him as fast as possible with Helm.
Mindbreak trap can be a solution, but be careful of
Silence.
OmniShow:
I think too that ORing is the best solution with some
Nevermore to consume counterspell.
Faeries + Word :u: :
I think this combo work only if the deck is only focused on the combo like Enchantress TOP8.
For the moment, I prefer Helm.
You should strongly consider Suppression Field vs Storm.dec.
All except Tide tend to deploy lots of nonland mana sources + fetches.
Combine it with at least one chrome mox and see them pale *g*
Should resolve the tempo race.
It also shines when resolved early vs RUG/ BUG.
Alternatively Runed Halo and Nevermore, though slow
can save you starting T2.
Regards,
Matt
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LurkingMatt
Quote:
Suppression Field
Activated abilities cost more to activate unless they're mana abilities.
I don't understand why Suppression Field can be used vs Storm.dec. It doesn't work for Lotus petal or Lion's Eye Diamond because they are mana abilities. Can you explain me please ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LurkingMatt
It also shines when resolved early vs RUG/ BUG.
I agreed. But need at least 3 slots for them and they are not compatible with Helm/Words.
I abandoned Suppression Field for Pithing Needle to fight planeswalker. Even if Suppression Field affect planeswalkers, I saw in test that it's not good enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LurkingMatt
Runed Halo doesn't work for Empty the warrens but can be a help for Tendrils if we are a slot for it.
I agreed for Nevermore (I play one in SB), it can be used for Show&Tell.dec too.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
My last list:
Lands:
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
7 Forest
Accelerating/Draw:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
Kills:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Helm of Obedience
Tutor:
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mirri's Guile
Control/Protection:
1 Puca's Mischief (can be a kill too)
1 City of Solitude
1 Nevermore
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Energy Field
4 Kirtar's Desire
4 Rest in Peace
Sideboard:
1 Equipoise
1 Cursed Totem
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rule of Law
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pithing Needle
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Nevermore
2 Leyline of Sanctity
What's new?
Kirtar's Desire: Because Energy Field/Mitard is not enough sufficient (mostly with Abrupt Decay) and not enough fast depending of the situation. Stop a Delver T1 or a Lackey is very good, can be easily pass over Spell Pierce or Daze. And it's good for us if opponent use spell on it instead of other enchantments.
Puca's Mischief: I like this card. We can get easily any opponent's permanent (like creatures or planeswalker). It's a good card of control and can be a kill (with opponent's permanent).
Example: you can exchange a wild growth with a Deathrite Shaman or Delver or Germ (Batterskull) and Wild Growth still in your land and so continue to give you additional mana!
There is a combo with Illusions of Grandeur but I don't like it. I find Mischief enough.
Leyline of Sanctity x2 MD: It's a test. Only x2 because it's not essential to have it in start hand for the first round, but it can be useful in MidGame.
What do you think?
Regards.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
It's nice to see others are still tinkering with this combo.
Having played many versions of this deck I can fairly safely say that this is not like the GWx lists. Our primary goal is not to silver bullet our opponent until we can get absurd amounts of mana and finish them off with a bunch of angles or Words of War. Our "silver bullet" is to just win. All of our card choices should look to forward that goal.
With the rise of BG lists running Abrupt Decay Energy Field did loose a lot of potency. So much so that I would actually table them for the time being.
Since most of those lists also sporting discard it only makes sense that we focus our energy on card draw and make every card count.
This gives rise to cards Abundant Growth and Ground Seal, and the sorting of Mirri's Guile. These will allow us to fight through tough openers where we face off against a ton of discard.
This also gives us some tools to fight through some board sweepers.
Here is a list I have been testing:
Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress
Enchantments (32)
4 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Ground Seal
4 Rest in Peace
4 Solitary Confinement
Artifacts (3)
3 Helm of Obedience
Lands (19)
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
15 Forest
Sideboard (15)
3 Seal of Primordium
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
4 City of Solitude
This list is very stable / resilient. The card draw allows us to fight through a lot of disruption while dig for our combo. It also makes an early Solitary Confinement stable. I'm not sure where, but the 75 should find room for 3-4 Karmic Justice for sweepers.
This list is not looking to protect any combo, but to win attrition wars with speed and draw. Sice we want to blow away the yard anyhow [cards]Leyline of the Void[cards] can come in vs. BG decks to nullify 1/2 of Cabal Therapy & other trix those decks have as well is a pretty good hoser of most combo.
It's also one of our biggest fears to get our Helm of Obedience's extracted so it's better just to make sure they get exiled in those MU's.
So this is where I'm at. Different approach, but still quite potent.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Hey all.
First off, I'm new. Not only to the forum, but as well to Enchantress, and Legacy in general. That being said, I try to read as much as I can on both, and that's exactly what brought me here. Someone mentioned this combo in a topic on the mtgsalvation forums and I couldn't help but wonder why one wouldn't want to rebuild the deck around this combo, since it's a lot faster than the classic enchantress wincons. Since the people there seem to like the way Enchantress is (I guess) I did some research of my own and quickly stumbled upon your humble topic. You guys are awesome. I even saw someone mention Web of Inertia/RIP as a possible combo for the deck (it's on my decklist), I feel like I'm in mtg heaven here :P
Ok, so enough of the yada-yada, right? I came here to talk about HelmChantRest.
Maindeck
Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress
Enchantments (28)
The basis
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
The protection/control
1 Web of Inertia
3 Sterling Grove
3 Energy Field
The new
3 Ancestral Knowledge
3 Root Maze
Instants (5)
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Abolish
Artifacts (6)
3 Mox Diamond
3 Helm of Obedience
Lands (17)
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
5 Forest
Sideboard
1 Stony Silence
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Detention Sphere
1 Karmic Justice
1 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
1 City of Solitude
2 Cursed Totem
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Elephant Grass
Now, before delving into the interesting stuff, I have to be honest guys... I have no idea whatsoever whether this sideboard is any good. I mean, I know most of those cards will come in handy sooner or later, but when it comes to how many times you want to run each of those cards and whether they're the best choice to begin with... idk. All I know is that it's not a completely useless sideboard and that some people might wonder why I sideboarded the Grass. (Which I did because I think it could still help out but it's not quite as necessary as it is in classic Chanty.)
Let's talk enchants. I decided to run a single copy of Web of Inertia instead of a 4th Energy Field because the Field doesn't quite protect us from Annihilator or other triggered abilities. Plus, in and by itself it already seems like a neat card against decks which rely on graveyard interaction, and it won't disappear as easily as the Field without a RIP out.
Then there's Ancestral Knowledge. Yes, Guile is only one mana, and green, and has a trigger each upkeep. But I don't really want to focus on having a lot of upkeeps, I want to focus on winning as efficiently as possible. And that's exactly what this card does. It lets you go through roughly the top 19% of your library, rearrange those cards as you see fit and even take out possible bricks. The idea of running Ancestral Knowledge originated from this topic btw, thanks for that.
Ok. And now, introducing: Root Maze. This card may not seem all that great, it may not seem to work within the flow of the rest of the deck, but I think this could be a gamechanger. If we can open and drop this on turn 1 together with a land, a mox (or an exploration, which also seems viable) and a growth/sprawl we'd be set up for 3 available mana on turn 2. Our opponent however won't have any mana available from land turn 1, and, without a nonland mana source, only 1 mana to spend on turn 2. That gives us a relative advantage of 2 land drops, twice the amount we'd normally have. So, as long as we can get ahead of our opponent manawise, Root Maze seems well worth playing. Apart from that, I think it also increases our chances against Belcher and Painter's Stone, seeing as they won't be able to go off the turn they come into play. We'd then also get the chance to remove or destroy one of their combopieces. So the way I see it this silly little card could mean to us as much as a turn 1 timewalk.
I also put some Abolishes in there, I don't know whether they will be better than Seal of Primordials, for example, but since they can be played at instant speed for the cost of a discard, I think it at least warrants playtesting. I do realize there aren't that much plains cards to be discarded though, it's just that... Well, the manabase doesn't need any more plains. It's fairly well balanced now, and I already cut Karakas instead of a plains, so... yeah. Not ideal quite yet, any ideas?
Lastly, the Mox Diamond. Yes, despite running only 17 land I choose to go with the exile-a-land-mox, and the reasoning for this is quite simple actually. I want to play my nonland cards and not exile them for the monocolored manasource Chrome Mox, with only 17 land it seems even sillier running Exploration rather than Mox Diamond, and since I'm under the impression the deck is still at it's most vulnurable early game, I find it imperative to give it every bit of extra edge it can reasonably get. So not running a low-cost form of ramp, like Explorations or Moxes, is not really an option imo.
Guess that's it. Any and all feedback is very welcome and I hope there's at least one good idea to be found in there somewhere. I also want to share a few other ideas I had but couldn't quite work out in a way they could improve the deck. Still pretty rough and rather vague in regard to their purpose, so probaby useless, but perhaps not, so I might as well share.
- Prismatic Omen could be a low-cost way of splashing into the famed and feared 4th colour. I don't really see a lot of use for it in HelmChantRest atm, but that can always change. I run one copy of the Omen in my classic Enchantress list though, comes in handy for the red splash.
- Humility + something... There must be a playable combo with Humility to take out all creatures at once. This also doesn't seem necessary atm, but who knows, it probably can't hurt to be able to combo into a Wrath of God effect.
- Celestial Dawn... I really don't have any use for this card but at the same time can't help but feel this has some sort of potential other than being a more costly way (compared to Prismatic Omen) to solve manacolour problems.
Edit:
So I was thinking, if we can actually slow down our opponents more rapidly and agressively early game dropping a Standstill could be all sorts of wonderous. It synergizes like cuh-razy with Chanty and it either slows down our opponent another turn, or we get even more card advantage. Plus I don't really mind waiting with this deck :P
