[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Ok, ran Extraction last night, my thoughts on the card.

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I would have been happy to draw something else of "Counter worthlyness" than this card after that. Something like NO or GSZ, this was useful, but it was not helping me get ahead, not helping win.

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I haven't played with Surgical Extraction yet, but what you wrote here sounds right to me. It's tempting to sit back and imagine all the possible excellent uses for a card like SE, but this kind of wishful mindset can be alluring and dangerous. We have to keep in mind the damage we do ourselves when siding in more than the minimum number of cards. Part of what makes our deck powerful is that nearly every card functions as a terrific threat. Our most lowly 1/1s threaten to break most games wide open thanks to their synergies with virtually everything we play. I'd usually rather top-deck a dork than a Surgical Extraction. And if the idea is that I should mulligan until I've got Extraction in hand as an answer to, say, Reanimator, well, I'd rather just play the uncounterable Faerie Macabre. As an answer to other kinds of decks, SE seems rather impotent.

I admit that Surgical Extraction is hard to play properly so maybe I'm just ignorant of its best-use cases. Depending on meta needs, I feel either (1) a dedicated hand-picky or (2) a dedicated graveyard hate card would be better. If SE were in my board, I really don't know when I'd board it in, since presumably I would have already boarded in some Cabal Therapies before it, and anything beyond that just weakens our deck.

It just seems like a card that needs countermagic alongside it to function best. E.g. "I counter your spell, and now I SE it for two life" seems a lot better than "I watch your spell resolve—but hey, don't do it again!"

Also, thanks so much for the new primer, danyul.

I recently ran 3 Surgical Extraction in my board as my recog team provided information about 2 people being on Dredge at our local tournament.

Played against it first round and boy would I have lost without being able to interact on turn1. It also helped a lot drawing into more of them when my 2nd turn mini glimpse soon fizzled. I can see not needing SE against other gy-dependant decks, where Ooze will be your best trump. But against Dredge, I feel really naked without SE.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

I recently ran 3 Surgical Extraction in my board as my recog team provided information about 2 people being on Dredge at our local tournament.

Played against it first round and boy would I have lost without being able to interact on turn1. It also helped a lot drawing into more of them when my 2nd turn mini glimpse soon fizzled. I can see not needing SE against other gy-dependant decks, where Ooze will be your best trump. But against Dredge, I feel really naked without SE.

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Julian, wouldn't Faerie Macabre have performed just as well as Surgical Extraction? Or was the ability to rip all extra copies from your opponent's hand/library crucial for you?

Faerie is more narrow in its focus than SE, and thus seemingly harder to justify in the board. But as I wrote above I try not to board in more than 4-5 cards for fear of diluting the elf deck's strengths, so unless I'm facing a graveyard deck I would be reluctant to board in SE anyway (i.e. it would be too much to bring it in alongside Cabal Therapies, NO+Progenitus, Teeg, and whatever else). So if I only really want SE against dredge, reanimator, and the like, why not run a more focused graveyard-hate card in its place, whether that be Faerie Macabre or Leyline of the Void or some other card?

Lately, I found myself looking at Leyline of the Void more and more...
I know that too often its a dead card, but for the simple interaction of a T0 get rid of dredge/reanimator decks might push me to include some in the SB. It is still highly debatable, since the SB I play is pretty much locked. I used to run Faerie Macabre at one point and up to 2 surgical extraction at another time. The printing of DRS was probably one of the best thing to happen to the deck since GSZ. I wouldnt want to dilute the deck.

My own 2 cents.

I find the Leyline's are a 4 or nothing idea. You need them in your opening hand, so you need as many as you can place in the deck to increase your chances of not having to Mull to 3 and still not find the card. Compound this with 3 dead draws and I just find them more of a hassle than a solid gain. You're putting all your eggs in one basket and if you do not happen to draw it well, not pretty. If I NEEDED a turn 0 answer I would likely go with Macabre or Extraction. Yes Void can last the whole game and kill a game plan, but it can kill your whole game plan too if you have to mull to 3 to get it. Especially in a deck that runs so few lands. Last thing you want is to watch the other guy take 6 turns while you look for a land, then, just to be an ass, your deck gives you a Cradle.

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Originally Posted by Lobo

Julian, wouldn't Faerie Macabre have performed just as well as Surgical Extraction? Or was the ability to rip all extra copies from your opponent's hand/library crucial for you?

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The most important thing to hit was Bridge from Below as this move buys a lot of time. Of course, I'd much rather have Surgical Extraction in this scenario. Problem for both Faerie and SE is Cabal Therapy flashbacks before you get to hit the card you really want to go for. So in one game, I actually extracted his Golgari Grave-Troll when he went all-in on turn1 and had no other dredgers left. In this case, Faerie would have been almost as good.

Against Reanimator, Faerie while being vulnerable to Pithing Needle still triumphs SE. Against combo however, especially with Cabal Therapy from the sideboard, i like brining in 1-2 Surgical Extractions after all. I'm not yet decided on which card I prefer though. I've got 3 foil Faerie Macabre as opposed to nonly non-foil Extractions...:eyebrow:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Last thing you want is to watch the other guy take 6 turns while you look for a land, then, just to be an ass, your deck gives you a Cradle.

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Unfortunately, I do have to agree with this statement.

Anyone else go all googly-eyed "Wow, that's so free" when looking at Deathblade maindecks?

Amazing primer danyul! Really well done!

How did DRS not make the graphic though?! He's the best elf! :tongue:

I'm currently on Riley's list -1 fetch, +1 Q. Ranger with a very combo-biased sb since top 4 at my LGS last week was Belcher, SnT, Tinfins, and Dredge. Ugh.

1 NO
1 Pro
4 Therapy
3 Silence
1 Teeg
1 Thalia
2 H. Sliver
1 Ooze
1 S. Library

If I get turn one'd, meh, it happens. Traps are great in your head, but terrible in practice from what I've experienced. Another reason I'm not in favor of MBT is that Teeg is my priority. If I can get him into play turn two, then great, that would be the play. Yet, I don't want to turn off my other hate after I've played him. Just another reason why MBT is out. Leyline of Sanctity would suffer from the same problem, but that would be much better in your opener compared to MBT. Just sayin, in case anybody wanted to try it.

edit - Adjusted after testing a little today.

I wish that the DTB's were decks that win simply because of interactions found by good pilot... Alas, they happen to be some of the simpler decks to pilot, so much so that even monkeys can pilot them. Unfortunately, it's not so much how you play anymore, but what you play.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

I wish that the DTB's were decks that win simply because of interactions found by good pilot... Alas, they happen to be some of the simpler decks to pilot, so much so that even monkeys can pilot them. Unfortunately, it's not so much how you play anymore, but what you play.

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This is because people tend to play the easier decks resulting in those being more likely to face which is all the DTB section cares about.

If the DTB were defined by the pure power of Decks in skilled pilots hands, you wouldn't see here "crap" like Goblins, Meerfolk or even ANT but TES and Terminus-free Miracles

This is a mistake that has been present, like, forever.

Being the "Deck to Beat" does not neccesarilly mean "Best Deck"; that would be "Deck to Play". A "Deck to Play" could easily be a Tier2, see Death&Taxes performance at GP Straßburg.

Today I top 8'd the monthly event at Jupiter Games, making me 3 for 3 on top 8'ing tournaments this year. I can post my list later if anyone's interested in what I've been running.

To everyone talking about Results and posting lists. You should do this. The best way for us to see what works is to see what others are both playing and playing against. As for the deck to beat thing. Decks will rise and fall, the simpler decks will always draw the bigger crowds. Those and the decks seen as most powerful. Thats why so many people play blue. It is seen as the most powerful colour and thus is near on worshiped in Legacy. Also one of the reasons I do not want to touch it. People will take the path of least resistance to a goal they have set themselves. Personally I love Tribal styles and the complexity that comes with it.


Now I have a question for the floor. Here is the scene:

Its game one, you have no idea what you're up against, your on the play and your look at your hand. In it you see not a god hand but one you feel is going to carry the game in your favor. The issue is the only land you have is a Dryad Arbor. Do you take the slower hand with most of your combo pieces or do you Mull and try again?

Dice_Box You definitely mulligan that Hand. Too many Legacy decks play Wasteland or Swords to Plowshares/Lightning Bolt/whatever.
It's just way too risky. Also, a slow hand needs more than one land...not guaranteed at all that you draw another land
It doesn't matter which deck you're facing in the first place. Even decks with discard can take away your next good play (1 mana spell) & if you don't draw land you can't do anything, even with the Dryad Arbor out.

What I am afraid of for this deck is the possible ban of Gaea's Cradle. After the announcement of the changing of the legendary rules, wizard said that they will monitor the situation of legendary cards, especially lands.
Well, if there is a land that could lead to degenerate results, that is Cradle.
If Cradle got banned this deck would lose a lot of power... from another point of view it would be nice because now the land costs about 100 bucks wich is crazy :)

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

What I am afraid of for this deck is the possible ban of Gaea's Cradle. After the announcement of the changing of the legendary rules, wizard said that they will monitor the situation of legendary cards, especially lands.
Well, if there is a land that could lead to degenerate results, that is Cradle.
If Cradle got banned this deck would lose a lot of power... from another point of view it would be nice because now the land costs about 100 bucks wich is crazy :)

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I was thinking of the same thing, the banning of Cradle...

I'm doubting that Cradle will be banned. Sure, the new legend rule makes it stronger. Occasionally, you will be able to win a turn earlier because you played a second cradle and tapped it for mana. But how often will that happen and end up being the difference between winning and losing a game? I think that Elves and other decks that abuse Cradle would have to dominate the format like Survival decks did before we see a banning. While Elves gets a little faster and stronger with the new legendary rule, I don't see it dominating the format. The deck still has the same weaknesses it has always had.

I do not think Cradle will go either. Mostly because as has been said before, having two of them one after the other does not make the deck any more broken than it is to start with. Also with Crop Rotation many of us have been playing with 2 cradles in a turn for a while.