Do you enjoy the current state of legacy?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

The issue we face now is that spells where (mostly) strongest in the old boarder, creatures mostly stronger in the new. So if you have been playing long enough, you will have felt the shift. You will have seen the real impact and change. But I caution against some thinking. Thinking that the Eldrazi are a recent addition to the game. The creature type is sure, but the deck is not. "Stompy" as a deck type is older than Legacy. Chalice with Sol lands is not a new phenomenon. Neither is the style of deck that Lands employs with Loam. Stax did that with a card called Crucible of Worlds long ago.

The issue today is not that these things are new, it's that we see them more. In 2004 I did not have the internet, but I had Legacy. In 2009 I had both, but I did not connect the two. The hybridisation of the internet and TCG happened for me much much later. I also feel like it had the same impact on many other people. You can ask my friends from 04, I was Wastelanding them then too. Much like I am now. I just did not have the kind of information and access to cards that I do now. Remember, Tog was a thing because easy access to cards long ago was not simple and he had to play proxy for Jon Finkel.

Time has changed Legacy thanks to technology, information and access. Anyone who bitches about Eldrazi today is just someone who was not getting punched by Pit Dragon yesterday. Anyone who thinks Loam is an issue now likely never had to face down Stax in the mid naughties. Not because these were not options, but because the information was not as board.

Is Legacy better now than it was? No, I don't think so, but I don't think that's totally on new printings and new decks. I think a lot has changed in the last 10 years and Legacy is just one of the things that has ridden that tide with time.

That said, God dam have creatures gotten stronger.

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I think you have some great points. On Eldrazi, it seems much more aligned to Zoo than MUD.

Coming back to the game about 3 years ago (played heavily beta/Unlimited-Homelands) after a random occurrence, the game has really changed. The cards are genuinely going to get stronger and stronger. I didn't ever really think there would be stronger cards then some of the ones I played with during the first years of magic- nonetheless completely unplayable. I hear the same cries from another generation years later. As the game grows the power creep will get more intense, that is how they sell cards, its the games natural progression.

Technology and competitive play/coverage I am sure had a lot to do with changing the format. Magic pre-internet was more of a wild west in general. I can only assume these factors strayed it away from its organic roots.

I really enjoy Legacy overall. I have some minor complaints, but no competitive format comes close in my opinion. it's the closest I can get to what I enjoy about Magic from back in the days. Omnitell/Dig era was the only time I felt Legacy was in a 'bad place' as of late.
Note I am not a blue mage, I rarely play blue and when I do it's fringe blue decks like Tezz, Post, Slivers and recently Food Chain. I was created in the bayous on Dominaria.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

First off, I was not a big fan of the Thresh, Maverick, Stoneblade era. The meta was too heavy with fair decks; and too many of those decks were just good-stuff.

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If this is how you felt back then, you're about to hate what's coming.

The Brainstorm Show posted four new deck ideas. All of them had:

4 DRS
4 Decay
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Then there were several cards that appeared in three of the four decks... Snapcaster Mage, Leovold, Counterspell, you get the point.

Now this isn't to pick on them. Their show is about competitive decks and finding the best build. And this was a focus on Fatal Push. But I think this is a harbinger of things to come. I was incredulous when Barook pointed out that Decay is now at 60% saturation. That's Brainstorm/Force level... and we are talking about two-color, non-blue, conditional removal.

I love a good Rock deck but part of that was finding the right tools to navigate the meta. Now it's just ramp & horizontally good disruption and creatures that are total beatings. I was excited for Leovold and Fatal Push, but I am now more interested in finding ways to beat them. Hopefully the format can adjust and there's another kind of fair deck worth playing.

I don't think I'd ever get tired of 4-5 round Legacy tournaments.

I don't know if I'd ever not get tired of 14-16 round tournaments, though. You guys actually have fun doing that?

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Originally Posted by hymnyou

I think you have some great points. On Eldrazi, it seems much more aligned to Zoo than MUD.

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Yeah i'd say so as well. Most stompy decks are essentially just chalice aggro decks. MUD is more along the lines of a ramp deck with prison pieces (atleast if we are talking about the post versions of the deck).

@Topic
I'm in the it's okay school as well. I think that both the printing of Eldrazi and the played conspiracy cards are a nice breath of life to the format. This is all anecdotal but it seems like people are more eager to go out and play decks that are outside of the top decks in the format. It feels like the format has opened up slightly so there is some room to brew although brews most likely aren't going to be top 8ing larger events.

This comic is about dota 2 but I think it easily applies to Legacy at any given point in time.

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Originally Posted by sco0ter

QFT!

Or let's just start one set before, New Phyrexia. Phyrexian Mana was a mistake as well.

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Most of the cards were okay as far as Legacy is concerned. Surgical Extraction is a great card, for example, and doesn't distort the color pie, given that various cheap artifact solutions to graveyards exist as well.

Dismember breaks the color pie, but isn't broken in terms of power level.

The only real problems were Mental Misstep (for obvious reasons) and Gitaxian Probe (which is hated by the majority of Sourcers for good reason).

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

Do agree people are looking at 2012 with rose colored glasses, remember RUG playing Counterbalance as the sideboard plan for the mirror?

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There's a difference between a SB plan and a deck running it in the main which has been THE top deck of the format for years.

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Originally Posted by maharis

If this is how you felt back then, you're about to hate what's coming.

The Brainstorm Show posted four new deck ideas. All of them had:

4 DRS
4 Decay
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Then there were several cards that appeared in three of the four decks... Snapcaster Mage, Leovold, Counterspell, you get the point.

Now this isn't to pick on them. Their show is about competitive decks and finding the best build. And this was a focus on Fatal Push. But I think this is a harbinger of things to come. I was incredulous when Barook pointed out that Decay is now at 60% saturation. That's Brainstorm/Force level... and we are talking about two-color, non-blue, conditional removal.

I love a good Rock deck but part of that was finding the right tools to navigate the meta. Now it's just ramp & horizontally good disruption and creatures that are total beatings. I was excited for Leovold and Fatal Push, but I am now more interested in finding ways to beat them. Hopefully the format can adjust and there's another kind of fair deck worth playing.

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I was shocked as well when I saw the numbers of AD and DRS. Numbers look less rough in paper. But in the highly competitive meta where people actually give a shit about running a good deck for the most part, it shouldn't come as a suprise. Just look at Reid's article:

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...in-louisville/

It boils down to this:
1. Run Brainstorm or get fucked over by consistency issues,
2. run Miracles, the best deck of the format, or
3. run Abrupt Decay as a starting point to answer Miracles.

All this "Miracles vs BUG vs the rest" does lead to alot of homogenization where huge amounts of the core are the same, with just a few wincons and disruption elements differing.

ive spent the last 2 days scripting and gathering data... just finished and ill analyze it the upcoming days. Just a random thing i wanted to check as a small teaser .... some random staples of the format and their part of the meta pver the years. Nice to See How Abrupt decay and Chalice / CB interact with each other for example.... and some losers of the recent history like stoneforge and tarmogoyf. Expect much more spohisticated analyzes, this is just a first quick thing after i just finished collecting ~18000 decklists beginning from 2011.

https://abload.de/img/blaaap5s3z.jpg

just to add some data to discussion

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Originally Posted by Barook

I was shocked as well when I saw the numbers of AD and DRS. Numbers look less rough in paper. But in the highly competitive meta where people actually give a shit about running a good deck for the most part, it shouldn't come as a suprise. Just look at Reid's article:

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...in-louisville/

It boils down to this:
1. Run Brainstorm or get fucked over by consistency issues,
2. run Miracles, the best deck of the format, or
3. run Abrupt Decay as a starting point to answer Miracles.

All this "Miracles vs BUG vs the rest" does lead to alot of homogenization where huge amounts of the core are the same, with just a few wincons and disruption elements differing.

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I mean, other than the fact that he won while I flamed out, Reid and I had remarkably similar thought patterns on the way up to the GP. I knew I was playing BUG for all those reasons.

Abrupt Decay was a solution to a problem that should've been solved by just banning Counterbalance. Now we're probably stuck with it which means it's mutually assured destruction for fair decks. I mean is there any deck that doesn't want to try and stick at least one CMC<4 permanent?

DRS is overpowered but I don't think exceedingly so -- especially since it eats it to a STP and now a Fatal Push. But Storm is now up to 4 decay in the side and most Reanimator decks splash for it as well. Lands splashes for it. None of these are DRS decks. And what has that done about the preeminent Counterbalance deck? Absolutely nothing.

To be fair, these games can still be interesting to a point, but part of the fun of the game is deckbuilding and the meaningful decisions there are increasingly vanishing.

Could you make a plot of:
Decay
Chalice
Counterbalance
Delver
Stoneforge
Show and Tell
Dark Ritual
Glimpse of Nature
Green Sun's Zenith
Loam
Dark Confidant

@janchu88: Interesting. What sources do you use to collect your data?

Edit:

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Originally Posted by maharis

I mean, other than the fact that he won while I flamed out, Reid and I had remarkably similar thought patterns on the way up to the GP. I knew I was playing BUG for all those reasons.

Abrupt Decay was a solution to a problem that should've been solved by just banning Counterbalance. Now we're probably stuck with it which means it's mutually assured destruction for fair decks. I mean is there any deck that doesn't want to try and stick at least one CMC<4 permanent?

DRS is overpowered but I don't think exceedingly so -- especially since it eats it to a STP and now a Fatal Push. But Storm is now up to 4 decay in the side and most Reanimator decks splash for it as well. Lands splashes for it. None of these are DRS decks. And what has that done about the preeminent Counterbalance deck? Absolutely nothing.

To be fair, these games can still be interesting to a point, but part of the fun of the game is deckbuilding and the meaningful decisions there are increasingly vanishing.

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Let's not dive to deep into B&R discussion before the thread unnecessary escalates like every other thread. I do feel like the problem stems from Miracles being the uncontested best deck for several years now as it clearly warps the meta around it. The increase in AD is just the symptom, not the cause.

But let's assume Wizards actually gave a shit and axed one part of the Counterbalance combo. How much would the AD ratio actually decrease? It's still an incredible flexible removal spell that can't be countered.

As for DRS, let's not forget how much GY abuse we had to suffer before DRS became mainstream. It may be a broken creatures, but it also has good sides.

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Originally Posted by maharis

I love a good Rock deck but part of that was finding the right tools to navigate the meta. Now it's just ramp & horizontally good disruption and creatures that are total beatings. I was excited for Leovold and Fatal Push, but I am now more interested in finding ways to beat them. Hopefully the format can adjust and there's another kind of fair deck worth playing.

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Be good at Goblins. No, I'm serious. It's a bye against Miracles as a Goblin player. You have all the SB tools to fight combo decks. These BUG decks have no board wipe, they rarely run Pernicious deed, you just need to kill Jitte, TNN isn't that big of a deal.

@Zombie

ill do it tomorrow, it got too late for today ;)

as mentioned i want to go more into detail anyway!

@Barook

collected by some vba scripts from "known" decklist sites...

I still like Legacy and enjoy it for most of the time. But the current status quo is far from the glory days. For me, the most I enjoyed the entire metagame was around late 2011 when the stupidest things you could face were "just" Maverick mirors and the Dream Halls matchup.


Esper Stoneblade vs GW Maverick? GW Maverick vs Canadian? Now that was some really great Magic. Games felt closer to chess than Super Punch-Out, like they often feel now.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

I still like Legacy and enjoy it for most of the time. But the current status quo is far from the glory days. For me, the most I enjoyed the entire metagame was around late 2011 when the stupidest things you could face were "just" Maverick mirors and the Dream Halls matchup.


Esper Stoneblade vs GW Maverick? GW Maverick vs Canadian? Now that was some really great Magic. Games felt closer to chess than Super Punch-Out, like they often feel now.

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Lingering Souls came out in 2012. (Agree on that tieframe though, Innistrad up until RTR was great.)

I never contested Lingering Souls coming out in 2012. I assume you're trying to say that Esper Stone Stoneblade didn't exist before that. It did and had pretty epic games with Maverick. From my perspective, it all went somewhat downhill with Innistrad, especially Avacyn Restored.

Why would anyone ever play that? There are no good black cards except Painful Truths & Storm shit.

It was good enough with Thoughtseize at the time.

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Originally Posted by maharis

If this is how you felt back then, you're about to hate what's coming.

The Brainstorm Show posted four new deck ideas. All of them had:

4 DRS
4 Decay
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Then there were several cards that appeared in three of the four decks... Snapcaster Mage, Leovold, Counterspell, you get the point.

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Haven't listened to their show in a while - sounds interesting. I'm not sure I'd dislike this. Delver decks come in all sorts of flavours while running many of the same cards. But as long as their collective meta share is modest that's fine - even arguably a good thing. Having a number of fair BUG variants wouldn't bother me either. I don’t actually mind fair good stuff decks - I just don't want that to be too much of the meta. My memory of the Thresh/Blade/Maverick era was a meta where combo decks, prison decks, and synergy based decks where far too scarce for my liking.

Don't get me wrong - I still absolutely loved playing Legacy! I loved rocking my Time Spirals and Candelabras, and I still had fun struggling with Pox and Enchantress (and other decks too). It was just way too fair and good stuff oriented for my preference. But I've never disliked Legacy.

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Originally Posted by maharis

I was incredulous when Barook pointed out that Decay is now at 60% saturation. That's Brainstorm/Force level... and we are talking about two-color, non-blue, conditional removal.

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I also don't mind if a few very good cards show up in a lot of decks - especially generic answers and versatile enablers. Things like Bolt, Plow, Wasteland, Force, Cantrips, GSZ, Seize, etc. I guess the higher the saturation of a card, the more different styles of deck I want to see running it. Decay sees play in midrange, tempo, combo, and prison, so I'm not personally bothered by this saturation.

These are just the things I like - the things that help keep me fascinated with meta. Different things are important to different people I guess.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

My memory of the Thresh/Blade/Maverick era was a meta where combo decks, prison decks, and synergy based decks where far too scarce for my liking.

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Only randomly quoting you for being the last person to mention this.

Combo not really being a thing in this era has been brought up a couple times, but it had nothing to do with combo not being good then. It's just that people didn't want to play combo for whatever reason. I played Storm exclusively from Innistrad until AVR and this era was without a doubt the heyday of Storm. The deck destroyed all of the common decks with 5+ sideboard slots to spare for fringe metagame players. I honestly have no idea why the deck wasn't played at the time. Hell, it was so good that Timo won Ghent playing a terrible list really badly, and that was with AVR (i.e. Miracles + Griselbrand).

I played a fair amount of storm the past few years and I think it's more of at a local level it's just not a recipe for interesting games sometimes and therefore people don't want to play it week in and out

Storm is pretty interesting but only for the Storm player, and only on average. Lots of games are rote but once in a while the winning line is insane.