[Deck] Zilla Stompy 2k6 - RG Beats for the Modern Meta

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Originally Posted by Mulletus

As a red green player, I like the idea of a non-Survival build. I am really surprized that FTK hasen't made it's way into the sideboard, at least as an option. I realize you have bolt, jet, and jitte... but they don't attack. It appears that tempo will play a major role in this deck. A clear path for beaters (rancored or not) may be more than just a 'win more' scenario.... it could be essential. I would even consder that Portal mini-FTK (Flame Imp or something) for a creature heavy meta.

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Aggro matchups are already extremely positive for you, with the exceptions of Burn and Angel Stompy. FTK is trash in both of these matchups. I think it's wiser to dedicate the board to beating your bad matchups, not improving your good ones.

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Originally Posted by kirdape

Is there a reason that you're playing creatures all the way up the curve until four mana? Moldervine Cloak exists now and is really rude, plus it costs less mana than the huge creatures do and is itself a great deal more survivable.

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Iwamori and Slum typically hit play turn 3. They are also absolutely essential to your game against Goblins and Thresh. You beat them because your creatures are bigger than theirs. Drop the big creatures and you go without the main reasons you beat these matchups in the first place. As for Moldervine Cloak, you're already running 8 creature upgrades. You're suggesting dropping 4 creatures to add 4 more? that leaves you with a creature to enhancement ratio of 20 to 12. Spot removal gets very, very good against you. You will constantly have dead creature enhancements in hand. It can't work. You could replace Rancor or Jitte with Cloak, but they're both almost strictly better. SoFI is better too.

The bottom line is that your fat creatures are your greatest asset against the most prominent matchups in the format. Your ability to play a constant stream of attackers is also very important. Investing all your resources into a single creature will inevitably weaken your overall game because there are less actual threats for your opponent to deal with.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

I kind of agree. Troll seems worlds better than either 4cc dude. Troll can come down turn 2 and get rancored swing fast fast fast. He also cant be swordzd, and has the nifty ability to.. well just stay alive. Besides, lowering the curve is always nice.

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The deck already runs Trolls.

No, I'd cut Jitte like the standard decks do. And probably Rancor as well. You only need one set, and right now I consider Cloak to be the best of them. Jitte itself is awfully slow (although fairly good against decks that can't kill the creature in response or before damage), and while Rancor's pretty insane, I'd rather make a creature less susceptible to actually dying.

I'm aiming at a Richmond Gun style (extremely low curve) rather than the midrange deck you're advocating. The same deck that can reliably kill a stream of x/3s is going to have no problems tagging x/5s (anything with Wrath or Plow) - such that I'd rather have my x/3s costing 1 and 2 mana rather than a bunch of x/5s costing fully four.

I have tested R/G, R/G/W, and other variants against Threshold (maindecking Worship even, how ungood for this deck), Goblins, and most of the major archetypes. I'm not convinced in the slightest that midrange R/G offers something that the smaller decks don't - in fact, midrange R/G is still probably the best at some form of Red Zone variant. Are these decks good? Yes. Is there a particularly good reason to play threats that cost four mana that aren't really more survivable than ones that cost half as much? That question is for everyone playing it to decide.

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Originally Posted by kirdape3

No, I'd cut Jitte like the standard decks do. And probably Rancor as well. You only need one set, and right now I consider Cloak to be the best of them. Jitte itself is awfully slow (although fairly good against decks that can't kill the creature in response or before damage), and while Rancor's pretty insane, I'd rather make a creature less susceptible to actually dying.

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Is that sarcasm?

Sorry, dont know how I missed that.

Ok.. I shuffled the deck up and got some pretty sick hands, but I still felt like I wanted the 4c's to be other guys. How bad is your burn matchup exactly? Is it bad enough to make the Iwamaris into Baloth? Hes green so he still eats angel stompy.

Iwamori..
Trample, Green

Slum..
Upkeep damage

Baloth..
4 Life, Green

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Originally Posted by kirdape3

No, I'd cut Jitte like the standard decks do. And probably Rancor as well. You only need one set, and right now I consider Cloak to be the best of them. Jitte itself is awfully slow (although fairly good against decks that can't kill the creature in response or before damage), and while Rancor's pretty insane, I'd rather make a creature less susceptible to actually dying.

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Jitte is quite possibly the strongest card in this deck. It is largely responsible for your overwhelmingly strong Goblins matchup. It's your sole savior in the burn matchup. It utterly wrecks weenie strategies. I can't see dropping it. The creatures themselves are already very survivable. Part of the deck's strength int he current format is that Bolts and Pyroclasms have very little effect against your forces already. The removal you really have to worry about is StP and Wrath of God, where Cloak won't raise your threats' survivability in the slightest. In fact, it makes StP even better by severely impacting your tempo in response to casting Cloak.

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I'm aiming at a Richmond Gun style (extremely low curve) rather than the midrange deck you're advocating. The same deck that can reliably kill a stream of x/3s is going to have no problems tagging x/5s (anything with Wrath or Plow) - such that I'd rather have my x/3s costing 1 and 2 mana rather than a bunch of x/5s costing fully four.

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This hasn't been my experience. Goblins, for example, isn't that concerned with x/3's. Gempalm is of use here. Fanatic at a chump blocker makes for a trade. Their ability to cope with a creature with an ass end of 5 or above is much less consistent. They almost always have to trade 3 for 1 against them, and that's why they win games. That they can go toe to toe with a Mongoose or Werebear and stick around is also of extreme relevance.

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I have tested R/G, R/G/W, and other variants against Threshold (maindecking Worship even, how ungood for this deck), Goblins, and most of the major archetypes. I'm not convinced in the slightest that midrange R/G offers something that the smaller decks don't - in fact, midrange R/G is still probably the best at some form of Red Zone variant. Are these decks good? Yes. Is there a particularly good reason to play threats that cost four mana that aren't really more survivable than ones that cost half as much? That question is for everyone playing it to decide.

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I've done a lot of testing with weenie aggro, including RDW, R/G Sligh, BDW, Zoo, Flame Sermon, and R/G/W Aggro. While they're all a bit faster than Zilla Stompy, none of them have had as consistent a game against both Thresh and Goblins as this one has had for me. Furthermore, the midgame aggro tends to have quite an advantage against the weenie aggro, as illustrated in the matchups section. (BDW is an exception solely because of Silver Knight.)

These are the reasons I advocate the deck for this metagame. It's not strictly superior to faster, lower curved decks. It just has an advantage in the current metagame.

I remember u guys saying that AS was a problematic matchup.

So, have you considered Mirri, Cat Warrior?

First of all, it will stop Silver Knight very well. If you opponent has a silver knight out, you can attack with Mirri all day, and the silver knight still can't do a thing.

Against Gro, she'll be guaranteed damage per turn due to forest walk.

Against Goblins, she can block piledriver (which is something BTS can't do), and then it takes just as much goblins to block to kill her. BTS need 2+ goblins to block, Mirri actually needs 3+.

the only problem is... it dies to lightning bolt. But then, against decks that pack burn as removals, Troll pretty much has it covered right?

Yesterday evening I played 10 games against Rifter. I won 8-2.

RG ZILLA stompy is a very potent deck. I played with Iwamori and he is extremely powerful. A turn three 5/5 trampler with no drawback is very intimidating for the other side of the table.

I believed that SOFI was better in this deck than Jitte due to BTS and the legendary status of Jitte but there were many times where I had a rancored troll and another creature and four mana to spend (with a SOFI in my hand).
So the reason that Jitte can be played sooner is THE reason to play it instead of SOFI.

I sided in Tranquil Domain against the many enchantmants. It worked. I haven't tried Winter Orb.

I am very anxious to see how the deck plays against other decks.

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Originally Posted by Boogy_Boy

So, have you considered Mirri, Cat Warrior?

First of all, it will stop Silver Knight very well. If you opponent has a silver knight out, you can attack with Mirri all day, and the silver knight still can't do a thing.

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Silver Knight has first strike too. They kill each other off. Your 3c slot is already jam-packed with BTS and Troll. If you're really concerned with Silver Knight, Call of the Herd is going to be a better call, I should think.

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I believed that SOFI was better in this deck than Jitte due to BTS and the legendary status of Jitte but there were many times where I had a rancored troll and another creature and four mana to spend (with a SOFI in my hand).
So the reason that Jitte can be played sooner is THE reason to play it instead of SOFI.

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QFT. SoFI costs you a full turn more than Jitte in almost every game you'll see it in. Despite the relatively high mana curve for an aggressive strategy, the deck thrives on speed. It simply can't afford to be giving up a full turn.

I understand that many are concerned with the apparent lack of synergy between BTS and Jitte. All I can say is, try it yourself; you'll see that it's rarely an issue. In most cases, an active Jitte means you're winning the game, BTS or no. In theory you could run Call of the Herd in the BTS slot, but I think that's likely to hurt your Goblins and Thresh matchups more than is warranted.

@GodzillA: Mirri is a 2/3. She can swing into Silver Knights all day long without trading with them. However, you're right. 8 three drops is enough for a deck like this. Maybe she can be considered as svg tech in the board for the Angel Stompy matchup?

Has anyone been running into consistancy issues with the deck? Often I've had to throw away 4 or 5 land lands because they've simply had no business (stuff like Forest, Wooded Foothills, Wooded Foothills, Taiga, Rancor, Bolt, Jitte), and my new hand is the same, if not worse. Yet the deck also has amazing draws that basically end the game on turn 3 because you have a Troll with an active Jitte.

It might just be MWS acting funny, but I'd like to get some input and see if anyone else is having this problem. I love this deck, and I it'd be great to see this busted out and win some events.

So has anyone tried Ravenous Baloth instead of Iwamori or Slum? I got around to trying him out, he's not as powerful as the other two but your bad matchups get better because of him. Even the closer games with goblins become less so since you have an extra 4 life per baloth. Jitte cant always be relied on for your problems since they can use removal on your equiped man, pithing needle jitte, blow it up, or with AS play their own. Baloth gave me precious life againt burn when my opponent burnt the critters I tried to equip. Try it out.

Baloth just doesn't have the front end that the other options do. Sure, if you sacrifice him you gain 4 life, but it's not as fast of a clock as the 5 power guys (obviously, but that matters). If you wanted to play a heavy life-gaining creature, splash white for Hierarch. Baloth isn't as good as the options in red and green.

I donno, trading -1/-1 for 4 life sounds good to me. He's also green, not red, which helps adress the AS problem. Lox needs white and I dont think its worth taxing the mana base. Rumbling Slum is just bad against goblins AND thresh compared to Baloth. And it pretty much is as fast a clock btw. My 4cc guy usually swings twice before I either lose or win the game. Thats only a 2 life difference in a deck with 20 something creatures, burn, and creature pumpers. Besides, I've lost a few games thanks to BTS/Jitte. I know the benifits outweigh the costs, so I continue to play both. But in my testing with Baloth he also helped adress that problem as it came up.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

I donno, trading -1/-1 for 4 life sounds good to me.

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You're simply wrong. In this sort of deck, Iwamori's +1/+1 and trample each outweigh Baloth's ability on their own.

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

@GodzillA: Mirri is a 2/3. She can swing into Silver Knights all day long without trading with them. However, you're right. 8 three drops is enough for a deck like this. Maybe she can be considered as svg tech in the board for the Angel Stompy matchup?

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Wow. That's what I get for posting tired. I even looked her up to double-check and still thought she was a 2/2. Strange. In any case, as far as savage anti-Angel Stompy tech goes, I don't think she's warranted. Like I said, if you're looking for another creature that answers Silver Knight, Call of the Herd is an option. If you're looking for something that shores up both the Burn and the Angel Stompy matchups, Ravenous Baloth is a good sideboard choice. Simply bring them in over the Trolls, which are bad against Silver Knight and die to Flamebreak.

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It might just be MWS acting funny, but I'd like to get some input and see if anyone else is having this problem. I love this deck, and I it'd be great to see this busted out and win some events

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It's absolutely MWS. The coding for its shuffler is absolute trash. Everybody that uses it regularly will agree. It's a decent tool for online testing and goldfishing, but you can't trust it statistically, particularly as far as land distribution is concerned. If you can, proxy it up in real life, pile shuffle it, and get a feel for the land distribution that way. Also, remember to use Magma Jet aggressively to smooth your draws. Against everything but Goblins, I almost never hold it back in anticipation of threats; I use it as soon as I can to get past dead draws.

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Originally Posted by ObfuscateFreely

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

I donno, trading -1/-1 for 4 life sounds good to me.

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You're simply wrong. In this sort of deck, Iwamori's +1/+1 and trample each outweigh Baloth's ability on their own.

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Quoted for absolute truth. You win your aggro and aggro-control matchups by being bigger than the other guy. The extra 1/1 makes a huge difference. It's the difference between trading with a threshed Werebear and getting to keep your guy. It's the difference between trading with 3 Goblins instead of two. It's the difference between surviving Bolt + Fanatic and not. It's the difference between a 4 turn clock and a 5 turn clock. That paltry extra 1/1 wins games.

And I did test Baloth in this slot quite extensively, by the way. I also tested a GW Build with Heirarch, StP, Isamaru, and Watchwolf in place of Slum, Bolt, Ape, Jet. In nearly all cases, the deck performed much less aggressively, and had significantly lower numbers against Goblins and Thresh. The 5/5 slot is absolutely immutable.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Goblin Matron is a moot point if Iwamori, of Face Smashage comes into play on your 2nd, or 3rd turn (if your going first). I would never tutor up a Kiki-Jiki just because you might drop a Iwamori.

It sounds like you are giving in to The Fear. Sure an active Kiki-Jiki is bad for you, but they are rarely going to have it, if at all. I am not running him, and I know other players aren't either.

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I am running KJ. Together with 4 Matrons, I have 5 virtual copies of KJ, so I wouldn't say I "rarely" have it.
And I will tutor up KJ when I know my opponent is playing with Iwamori. Unless you immediately burn off all the other Goblins, KJ will do some pretty sick stuff. Especially because KJ comes into play on the opponents turn and the copies from KJ survive till my turn. If you leave KJ and other Goblins unchecked, it will generate such an advantage that even Zilla Stompy will have a hard time.

Iwamori almost never comes into play on the second turn. This is because Llanowar Elves get burned by Fanatic/Incinerator, or you're forced to block Lackey (if you don't have burn). If the Zilla Stompy player has a good hand, the average Iwamori turns are 3-4. Any later than that and you give me as a Goblin player a lot of time to search out KJ.


This is not giving into The Fear. This is careful planning. I'm also heavily leaning towards running Iwamori, so we're on the same page here. I just want to make sure it doesn't make a good matchup worse.

@all: Who has actually tested the Iwamori-version against Goblins?

How does Iwamori survive Fanatic + Bolt??

Well as long as you tested Baloth I'll take your word for it. I seem to be getting better results with him than you.

Yea I did forget to mention that Baloth wont let my opponent get a free KJ..
Yes this does happen. Sadly and strangely.

Oh and how bad would it suck when your zilla stompy mirror drops his for some good ol legend rule removal? jk.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

How does Iwamori survive Fanatic + Bolt??
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I assume he means fanatic ping + Bolt. So yeah, 5/5 trumps 4 damage.

@Bongo

Why the hell is everyone so scared of KJ exactly with this deck? Goblins can't race this deck unless it gets an extremely good swarm draw to begin with. I much rather be fetching removal, SGC or Warchief than just hoping and praying they play an Iwamori and I get to -try- to ruin them if I have anything left w/ KJ.

Oh and KJ is a 2/2? And this deck runs burn you say? Damn. Painful. In all seriousness, KJ's usefulness is directly dependent on what other good Goblins you have in play. If the opponent has a removal spell for either Matron (so you can't copy) or KJ, the jig is up.

Ok mister Legacy Adept. Your going to burn all my men down then drop Iwamori and bolt my KJ? Ill have two copies of warcheif/ringleader/matron by next turn for sure. Infact KJ is probably a card I would fetch against this deck whether or not I know your playing Iwamori. His card advantages are probably the only thing that would grab you the game.

And fanatic will never block your 5/5 I suppose? Sure you get your trample damage. Congratulations 5 ass. But hey its not like they play 2 power creatures or gempalms right? Me? Ill take 4 life and stay alive a turn longer to win the game.

If this deck has such a good game against goblins why does it have to run this COCK block jank? If your bad matches are burn and AS play friggen Baloth. I dont understand why everyone is so thickheaded about that.

Maybe you could test him. Its pretty easy, just open the deck editor.

Zilla quote: Wow. That's what I get for posting tired. I even looked her up to double-check and still thought she was a 2/2. Strange. In any case, as far as savage anti-Angel Stompy tech goes, I don't think she's warranted. Like I said, if you're looking for another creature that answers Silver Knight, Call of the Herd is an option. If you're looking for something that shores up both the Burn and the Angel Stompy matchups, Ravenous Baloth is a good sideboard choice. Simply bring them in over the Trolls, which are bad against Silver Knight and die to Flamebreak.

Don't worry even Wizards doesn't know the p/t and rarity of Mirri, Cat Warrior.
A few years back they made the infamous Anthologies set with like a bazillion misprints in it. They made Mirri a common 2/2.

@all the Iwamoriphobes. Iwamori is the best creature at four mana at this point in time. There are a number of creatures that could take its place but only when you play against certain decks. Sideboarding Baloth is a good idea. I had two in my board but i didn't need it against Rifter.

PS An iwamori also survives a Slice and Dice.

Cool deck!

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Originally Posted by Bongo

Iwamori almost never comes into play on the second turn. This is because Llanowar Elves get burned by Fanatic/Incinerator, or you're forced to block Lackey (if you don't have burn). If the Zilla Stompy player has a good hand, the average Iwamori turns are 3-4. Any later than that and you give me as a Goblin player a lot of time to search out KJ.

@all: Who has actually tested the Iwamori-version against Goblins?

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You have time to search out the Jeek. I don't dispute this. It ignores some important aspects of play, however. If you Matron KJ before Iwamori, your opponent will be fully aware of it. It's not particularly difficult to simply play other threats instead, waiting until your board position and/or hand makes it advantageous to make this this tradeoff. An active Jitte, or even a well placed Bolt can largely reduce KJ's impact on the game state. And I don't necessarily mean removing KJ; I mean removing his target. KJ is only as good as the creatures he can copy. Remove Matron or Ringleader in response to KJ's ability and he's often not that big a threat at all. Note, by the way, that I'm not speaking conjecturally; this is based on testing.

It's also important to note that if you're fetching KJ with Matron, you're not fetching a Warchief or a Piledriver or a Pyromancer or a Gempalm or whatever else might benefit you more. You're searching for a creature that your opponent must allow you to play. If you have the mana or Vial counters to hardcast him, then this discussion is moot anyhow. Consider how often an early Warchief is integral to Goblins' board development. Consider also how often you fetch Warchief with Matron to accellerate your development. Fetching KJ at the cost of board development, simply because you're afraid I might be holding Iwamori? That seems like an advantage to me, not a drawback.

With all that said, I'm not going to lie - I haven't tested Iwamori extensively against Goblins. I have tested it some, and it wasn't a problem at all in those few games, but it's not to say that it might not be in some cases. I've said repeatedly that Iwamori needs more testing. The decklist in the beginning of this thread has Slum in the maindeck, not Iwamori. The vast majority of testing was done with Slum. I think that against many decks, Iwamori may be the better call, but against Goblins Slum may be better. When I have the opportunity to test it I will, and I'll let you know. Feel free to test it yourself and let us know what the results are as well.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

If this deck has such a good game against goblins why does it have to run this COCK block jank? If your bad matches are burn and AS play friggen Baloth. I dont understand why everyone is so thickheaded about that.

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Because Baloth weakens EVERY other matchup. I said I'd tested it extensively, and I wasn't lying about that. I don't mean to Disenchant your Aura of Hypocrisy, but have you considered testing the deck before suggesting changes? Just a thought.