[Primer] Dredge

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Que

If I was going to play Quadlazer today I would probably replace all four Breakthrough for the Street Wraith rather than cut all the Careful Study. Sure Study is weaker but its more efficient in what you need the deck to be doing. Losing Breakthrough sucks, but you make up for some of the power lost through sheer speed with Street Wraith allowing you to Careful Study/Faithless/Putrid Imp turn one and start dredging right away. You can also run into a sample situation where you don't have any lands, but you have LED, Street Wraith, Faithless Looting and at least 1 dredger where you can drop the LED, Cycle Street Wraith retaining priority and Saccing the LED for red mana and allowing you to dredge off the Street Wraith for an extra dredge before you flashback faithless looting. :)

The only concern in the sideboard I have is the lonely 2 Nature's Claim. Sure you have 2 grudge, but those only hit artifacts and they don't reasonably handle Graffdiggers Cage. I would at the very least cut either a Grudge (but only if your meta is light on Stompy/heavy artifacts) or a firestorm to include the 3rd claim. Or include something like Chain of Vapor which is a pseudo answer and more versatile across other matchups like Reanimator.

---

WOW!

Thanks for all the advice and the help I have been given in the short time I am on this forum. I really appreciate it a lot thanks.

Now to business, I have 4 Nature`s Claim so putting one or two more in there won`t be a problem.
I am also thinking of mixing up the numbers in time because that is the fun a tweaking a deck to how you like to play it, atleast for me it is.
What I always like to do is play with a sideboard that has cards that are good against all matchups, been doing that in Modern for a while, and it really makes you play better because you are using the cards a lot.

The Diamonds will be the last cards for me to buy because of the price but in the meantime I will be playing some against friends just to get a good feel for the deck. Don`t worry the Diamonds will definitly come because I want something other then only having a Modern deck to play with.

If I have more questions you will defintly find me here :D

Hi friends,
I started to play this deck last week and I have way too many questions.
Let's say the most important ones regard sideboarding.
I seem to get it always wrong. Is there a secret way if doing it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pische

Hi friends,
I started to play this deck last week and I have way too many questions.
Let's say the most important ones regard sideboarding.
I seem to get it always wrong. Is there a secret way if doing it?

---

As with a lot of decks; a good amount of 'figuring it out' comes with playing. It sucks but there is a difference in reading and being able to intuit lines of play, sideboarding, etc.
There might be others that I don't have bookmarked/remember but I know Parcher wrote a guide in the old thread. That being said - a guide is just that.
I would suggest, as lame of a 'homework' assignment as this seems, to look at that guide and determine why those suggestions are being made. e.g. are the cards coming out slower than what you can bring in? Does the normal MD configuration just keep you from really executing an effective game plan?

Thanks for the reply!
My main concern is how much anti-hate should I bring in and how explosive should my plan be in g2.
Of course what you say is true, experience is more important than reading a guide, but I recall my early days in learning Miracles by reading the Schoenegger sideboarding guide and that helped me a lot in figuring out the different plans after sideboard.
Thanks for the link by the way, I'll jump into it!

Hey all, I'm a noob to the deck and need help. So when combat damage resolves and my opponent and I have critters going to the graveyard, how does the stacking of triggers work with bridge in the graveyard. It's my combat turn. Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagicGuy

Hey all, I'm a noob to the deck and need help. So when combat damage resolves and my opponent and I have critters going to the graveyard, how does the stacking of triggers work with bridge in the graveyard. It's my combat turn. Thanks.

---

The triggers go to the stack at the same time, so you can order them in any way you like. Most likely you'll want to put his triggers on the stack first, and all of yours after, so that your triggers resolve first. Kinda like this:

A - trigger from enemy creature going to the yard (remove bridge)
B - trigger from enemy creature going to the yard (remove bridge)
Y - trigger from your enemy creature going to the yard (create token)
Z - trigger from your enemy creature going to the yard (create token)

The stack should look like this:


A goes to the stack:

"A - remove bridge"

B goes to the stack:

"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"

Y goes to the stack:

"Y - create token"
"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"

Z goes to the stack:

"Z - create token"
"Y - create token"
"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"


At this point, if both players pass priority, the first item on the stack will resolve, meaning resolving Z will net you a token.
After resolving Z trigger, the next item on the stack is the Y trigger, and you get another token.
After you get all your tokens, you resolve the triggers for removing the bridges due to an enemy creature hitting the graveyard; triggers A and B respectively.

tl;dr - all the bridge triggers go to the stack at the same time, so you can arrange them in the order that benefits you the most.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trinkets

The triggers go to the stack at the same time, so you can order them in any way you like. Most likely you'll want to put his triggers on the stack first, and all of yours after, so that your triggers resolve first. Kinda like this:

A - trigger from enemy creature going to the yard (remove bridge)
B - trigger from enemy creature going to the yard (remove bridge)
Y - trigger from your enemy creature going to the yard (create token)
Z - trigger from your enemy creature going to the yard (create token)

The stack should look like this:


A goes to the stack:

"A - remove bridge"

B goes to the stack:

"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"

Y goes to the stack:

"Y - create token"
"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"

Z goes to the stack:

"Z - create token"
"Y - create token"
"B - remove bridge"
"A - remove bridge"


At this point, if both players pass priority, the first item on the stack will resolve, meaning resolving Z will net you a token.
After resolving Z trigger, the next item on the stack is the Y trigger, and you get another token.
After you get all your tokens, you resolve the triggers for removing the bridges due to an enemy creature hitting the graveyard; triggers A and B respectively.

tl;dr - all the bridge triggers go to the stack at the same time, so you can arrange them in the order that benefits you the most.

---

Awesome, thank you for that quick response! That's how it played out tonight. My opponent looked at me like "what." I looked at him like "I think so", had to admit it seemed totally not fair. I'll take it though. Also resolved Firestorm for the first time tonight (on end of turn) untaped played Breakthrough and went off. I feel like the hardest parts of the deck are; A: NOT missing triggers and B: when to mulligan/not mulligan. Not all hands are LED, Faithless Looting, blah blah blah.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pische

Thanks for the reply!
My main concern is how much anti-hate should I bring in and how explosive should my plan be in g2.

---

I have a similar dilemma pretty much every time I play the deck. (Chalk it up to my not really knowing what I'm doing.) In my experience, we need to do one of two things: either stop cold our opponent's hate/deck plan, or just go faster than they can and take advantage of the fact that the only deck with better mulligans than ours is All Spells.

I usually either side in 4x Force in place of LEDs or a second Dread Return and a big guy/FKZ in place of two PAms. I haven't had a lot of success with other plans, though it feels really weird to leave Fragmentize/Nature's Claim in the sideboard even when there's a significant chance the opponent is bringing dedicated grave-hate like Leyline or Cage.

Maybe I've just missed it, but I've been looking for info on how many sideboard cards we can realistically afford to run without diluting the deck and drawing awful piles. Anybody have some insight on this?

[EDIT: A major problem to which I keep returning is that without deck manipulation, we're relying on our mulligans pretty heavily if we expect to be casting anti-hate from our hand. So a quad of something often feels like it's not enough to me, but whenever I used to try 'boarding more than four or five cards, everything came apart at the seams.]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I have a similar dilemma pretty much every time I play the deck. (Chalk it up to my not really knowing what I'm doing.) In my experience, we need to do one of two things: either stop cold our opponent's hate/deck plan, or just go faster than they can and take advantage of the fact that the only deck with better mulligans than ours is All Spells.

I usually either side in 4x Force in place of LEDs or a second Dread Return and a big guy/FKZ in place of two PAms. I haven't had a lot of success with other plans, though it feels really weird to leave Fragmentize/Nature's Claim in the sideboard even when there's a significant chance the opponent is bringing dedicated grave-hate like Leyline or Cage.

Maybe I've just missed it, but I've been looking for info on how many sideboard cards we can realistically afford to run without diluting the deck and drawing awful piles. Anybody have some insight on this?

[EDIT: A major problem to which I keep returning is that without deck manipulation, we're relying on our mulligans pretty heavily if we expect to be casting anti-hate from our hand. So a quad of something often feels like it's not enough to me, but whenever I used to try 'boarding more than four or five cards, everything came apart at the seams.]

---

Careful study/ looting also dig for anti hate if you are going that route, effectively trying to find a 4-of in ~11 cards (on the draw and able to cast it) if your study/looting resolves and you can cast it. Mathing it out: Hypergeometric calculators put it at ~ 56% for >=1.

and then your anti hate needs to resolve.

EDIT: hyper geo calculator I used:http://stattrek.com/online-calculato...geometric.aspx

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vissah

WOW!

Thanks for all the advice and the help I have been given in the short time I am on this forum. I really appreciate it a lot thanks.

Now to business, I have 4 Nature`s Claim so putting one or two more in there won`t be a problem.
I am also thinking of mixing up the numbers in time because that is the fun a tweaking a deck to how you like to play it, atleast for me it is.
What I always like to do is play with a sideboard that has cards that are good against all matchups, been doing that in Modern for a while, and it really makes you play better because you are using the cards a lot.

The Diamonds will be the last cards for me to buy because of the price but in the meantime I will be playing some against friends just to get a good feel for the deck. Don`t worry the Diamonds will definitly come because I want something other then only having a Modern deck to play with.

If I have more questions you will defintly find me here :D

---

No worries. Alternatively I have seen another iteration of the traditional Quadlazer build. This might be closer to what you're looking for since it has shown the most recent success in a competitive setting (2 Trophies & 1 Legacy Challenge top 8 in October alone). The list is used by user Orim67 on MTGO (not sure if he has an account on here) where its 4x of everything except he/she cut out all the Careful Study and replaced them with Street Wraith which was opposite of what I was suggesting as I would have cut out all the Breakthrough instead. Either way I would encourage you to try out different things and see what you're comfortable with and also consult your meta. :)

List of Orim67:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/search?player=Orim67

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

(what strategy? sideboarding) I have a similar dilemma pretty much every time I play the deck. (Chalk it up to my not really knowing what I'm doing.) In my experience, we need to do one of two things: either stop cold our opponent's hate/deck plan, or just go faster than they can and take advantage of the fact that the only deck with better mulligans than ours is All Spells.

---

This :wink:
In quite a few matchups, gravehate is minimal. Surgical Extraction is the most common one I see. Some decks rely on that alone for gravehate.
If this is the only hate you're expecting, I'll typically keep my Breakthrough's and Putrid Imp's in the main and go all-out race, with a mind to land as much pressure on the board as quickly as I can before they find a second Surg.
Whilst Putrid Imp is just ok against extraction, Street wraith is better at playing thru extraction.
If I'm up against proper hate (RiP, LotV, Cage] that is terminal, I side. If it's not proper hate, and it's possible for us to still land enough pressure to win, I would suggest you consider racing (opposition dependent). Just bear in mind more than anything else, the decks main strength postboard is Cabal Therapy. It's my plan A to take away from them whatever I fear the most.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Que

No worries. Alternatively I have seen another iteration of the traditional Quadlazer build. This might be closer to what you're looking for since it has shown the most recent success in a competitive setting (2 Trophies & 1 Legacy Challenge top 8 in October alone). The list is used by user Orim67 on MTGO (not sure if he has an account on here) where its 4x of everything except he/she cut out all the Careful Study and replaced them with Street Wraith which was opposite of what I was suggesting as I would have cut out all the Breakthrough instead. Either way I would encourage you to try out different things and see what you're comfortable with and also consult your meta. :)

List of Orim67:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/search?player=Orim67

---

Yeah I been checking out varies decks and testing some online and I am figuring out more and more what I like to play.
I won`t be playing the Quadlaser build for now because I like the otherone I been trying out better. Now I just need to get a couple more cards and I can see how I do at my local store.

Only thing I am not sure about is the amount of lands. Now I am playing with 12 and sometimes I am trying 13 but for now I feel that 12 is enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vissah

Yeah I been checking out varies decks and testing some online and I am figuring out more and more what I like to play.
I won`t be playing the Quadlaser build for now because I like the otherone I been trying out better. Now I just need to get a couple more cards and I can see how I do at my local store.

Only thing I am not sure about is the amount of lands. Now I am playing with 12 and sometimes I am trying 13 but for now I feel that 12 is enough.

---

I think the land base is mostly preferred to the player itself on how they want to build the deck. I'm running 12 in mine, but am also running street wraith as well.

Played dredge last night for the first time in many many moons. The deck just completely crapped out on me every chance it got. Not ready to give up but definitely will be tweaking my list.

Hey, I'm Orim67 on mtgo. I just got into top 8 of the legacy challenge, just to get rekt vs U/B Reanimator. I can go over the replays tomorrow if you are interested.

i would like to see you go over the replays

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orim67

Hey, I'm Orim67 on mtgo. I just got into top 8 of the legacy challenge, just to get rekt vs U/B Reanimator. I can go over the replays tomorrow if you are interested.

---

Yo Congrats bro. You been tearing it up. Yeah I feel like the Reanimator matchup is atrocious unless you're actually packing the full set of Leylines in the board.

How often do you miss Careful Study? Obviously the strengths of street wraith goes without saying, but I was curious as to whether you occasionally missed the Draw & Discard that only it and Faithless Looting provide. Also do you feel like a full set of Street Wraith is necessary at this point?

As you might know, I've had much success with Dredge on MTGO. After I saw the fantastic tournament report of Kap'n Cook and saw that the deck costed just 130 tix, I just copied the list and cashed almost every league after that. I finally got into top eight of a legacy challenge after 3 tries.

Here is the list:

4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Street Wraith
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge From Below

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

Sideboard:

2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Memory's Journey
4 Firestorm
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Wear/Tear

Round 1 vs Ecoscuro on Sneak and Derp

Game 1

I am on the draw and keep LED, Street Wraith, Therapy, 2 Dredgers and a PImp hoping to find a Land off the Scry. I thought that he was on some chalice deck, so I kept. He went Island, go. I didn't find a land, even off the SW cycle and was afraid of counters, so I said go. Fast forward, I discarded to handsize and slowdredged a bunch and Opp played a Blood Moon t4 and Brainstorm locked himself t7 and died to ichorid beats. Pretty lucky that he just drew counters mana and blood moon that game.

Game 2

SB: +2 Dread Return +Ashen Rider +Iona -2 Ichorid -PImp -SW
I keep PImp, SW, City, Looting, Breakthrough, Narc, Bridge. I topdeck a dredger and my first PImp gets forced. Then I draw anothed PImp and I cycle SW to dredge a Narc. Opp casts Clasm and I discard Bridge for two free zombies. He counters my looting, but dies on t4 to an Ichorid and the Zombies from the Clasm. It was pretty helpful that my Opp never got a fast hand in both games.

Record: 1:0
Round 2 vs Kantarelkongen on U/R Delver

Game 1

I lost the die roll again, but keep a hand of 2 Dredgers, SW, LED, Bridge, Therapy, Looting and a City was waiting on the top of my deck. He taps a Land to Ponder and I tap a Land and sac LED to do the thing that wins games. I even get to take a look at his 3 Dazes +Stormchaser Mage before he concedes.

Game 2

SB:+Ancient Grudge -Thug
I mull and keep Breakthrough, Mine, LED, Dredger, SW, Ichorid. Opp goes turn1 Swiftspear and I breakthrough cracking LED and cycling SW and dredge a bunch. When I therapied, he showed me a FoW! and concedes after that. So that was weird.

Record: 2:0

Round 3 vs oRS on U/B Standstill

He streamed the match, you can find it here at 01:48:00 https://go.twitch.tv/videos/200714634

Game 1

I'm on the play and keep 2 gold, PImp, SW, LED , Breakthrough. He concedes on turn two after he wastelands me.

Game 2

I didn't sideboard and I keep a "Belcher Hand" but he has a Leyline of the Void in his opening 7. I scoop to his first colored land.

Game 3

SB: +3 Tear, -1 Ichorid, -1 Thug, -1 LED
I mull to five and keep PImp, Therapy, City, Coliseum, Breakthrough. Opp mulls to 6 and drops a Leyline but doesn't have a land yet. I play Pimp t1, topdeck a Tear t2 and therapy his FoW away. Turn 3 I draw a land and Tear his leyline in response to him Fatal Pushing my PImp (He found a USea). Next turn I Breakthrough for one and find a dredger and keep a land in hand. After that i go ham with coliseum and he can't recover with his two factories, snapy and medium removal. Therapy apparently messes with the replays, so some games won't be as detailed.

Record: 3:0

Round 4 vs Zirina on Miracles

He streamed the match, you can find it here at 03:36:39 https://go.twitch.tv/videos/200702169

Game 1

I'm on the draw and keep 5 cards containing SW, 2 Lootings, Troll and Narc hoping to find a Land off the Scry. But I find sth better: LED! He plays a fetch and passes and I cycle SW, crack LED and flashback Looting. He concedes to the first Therapy.

Game 2
Sb: +2 Firestorms, -2 LED. I expected Containment Priest but I didn't want to board too much.
I keep a good 7 with 2gold, PImp, Breakthrough, Stinkweed, Ichorid and a Therapy. But my Opp drops a Containment Priest on t2 and I tunnel vision on finding a firestorm the whole game because he never seemed to have much countermagic and I found many looting effects and some Breakthroughs. I never found a firestorm to activate my Ichorids and in hindsight I could have won the game if I started hardcasting creatures and dredging into bridges and therapies.

Game 3

I keep the deck like in game 2 and we both mull to 5. I have 2 Therapies, 2 Breakthroughs, City and scry a City on top. T1 I Therapy naming Brainstorm, so my second Therapy can get the scariest card. I hit and he shows me a Containment Priest, which gets discarded on turn 2. On turn 3 I breakthrough for 1 and find a dredger and keep a Coliseum in hand. I crack the Coliseum on t4 and Zirina could not recover after I made some zombies and discarded a terminus.

Record: 4:0

Round 5 vs Dan9IN on 4c Pile

Game 1

I mull to 4 and keep 2 Looting, SW, Therapy and scry a grave troll to the top. He Inquisitions me on t1 and takes my Therapy. I cycle SW and find a LED, so I could discard my hand and flashback Lootings. I didn't find a second dredger, but dredged two Narcs. I wanted to wait on the therapies because I didn't have any Bridges in the Yard. He drops a Drs on t2 but couldn't find a green source. While I slow dredged I didn't hit any bridges and only one ichorid for too many turns. The second Drs and removal on my Narcs without bridges were too much.

Game 2
SB: +Memory's Journey +4 Firestorm -2 LED -2 PImps - Thug . I used to cut all LEDs in this MU but I wanted to try keep some in to see how often I actually get punished for going all in in sb games. LED is just too powerful to cut when my Opp can keep a hand because it has Drs and cantrips in it.

I keep a good hand with 2 gold, Troll, SW, Breakthrough and Bridge, ready to crush any Drs. But he just plays a Nihil Spellbomb on turn one. This replay is broken, because I Therapied him for force t2. I forced him to use the spellbomb t3 and I couldn't rebuild with Breakthrough after that, because it got countered I think. He most likely got a DrS online after that too and the game was basically over.

Record: 4:1

Round 6 vs DNSolver on Oozing Reanimator

I had to win this Round to get into top8 , but I didn't like my chances going into this match, because his combo is faster than mine.

Game 1

I'm on the play and keep Mine, PImp, Breakthrough Looting, Narc and 2 Dredgers. On t1 I play PImp and pass. He plays land and probes. On t2 I Breakthrough and hit only one Narc and one Therapy and no bridges. I therapy him and he brainstorms in response, so I name Dark Ritual because he would have played Entomb and Dark Rit is needed for fast kills. When he shows me the hand, the relevant cards are: Brainstorm, Petal, 2 Lands, Collective Brutality. Well, next turn he Brainstorms and somehow gets to Exhume a Griselbrand and I show him a very big Troll. He draws 14 cards, finds two Petals, but can't get anything going, so my troll, PImp and Two Ichorids are exactly lethal.

Game 2

SB: +2 Dread Return, +2 Faerie Macabre, + Iona, + Ashen Rider, + Memory's Journey , -2 Pimps, - Thug, -2 Ichorid, -2 Street Wraith,
I keep 2 gold, LED, PImp, Faerie Macabre!, Narc and Ichorid. He Ponders t1 and I topdeck a Dredger and play PImp and LED. He goes for a Reanimate on Griselbrand, but Faerie Macabre exiles the big Demon.
I find a looting and the Memory's Journey off the first dredge and my Opp scoops after I was able to find meaningful Pressure with the flashbacked Looting.

I was 5:1 and locked into top 8 after that.

Quarterfinals vs YENKO88 on U/B Reanimator

Game 1

He is on the play and Reanimates Elesh Norn on t2.

Game 2

I am on the play and play Looting and discard two dredgers. He goes land, go. I dredge and hit narc and Therapy. I therapy him and he entombs for Norn again and Forces the Therapy to protect a reanimation spell. I cast breakthrough and dredge a bunch and discard a memory's journey out of my hand. I didn't hit any Therapies but I cast Journey on his Elesh Norn on my turn to play around Daze + Animate Dead or a topdecked counter.

Game 3

He reanimates a Griselbrand on t2 and I can't resolve my draw spells trough his Daze + FoW after he drew 7 cards. But I got to dredge into my Iona, that he got to bring back to life with Animate Dead.
I couldn't beat the Tag-Team of a big flying Angel and lifelinking scary Demon and scooped.


There were some weird games and skillful topdecks involved, but I think that Dredge is very well positioned right now. Most fair decks rely on surgicals or 2 Mana Hatepieces. We can power through surgicals and we can race/discard 2 mana cards. People still like to surgical Dredgers and sometimes you can just get them with a street wraith.

I thought about changing my list and trying out some Careful Studies because you can then get away with the full set of Coliseums, which are busted in this deck. But when you cut gold lands, you can't cast Imps as reliably which are very synergistic with SW.

@Orim67 how does the deck feel against the DRS meta?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkness

@Orim67 how does the deck feel against the DRS meta?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orim67

I think that Dredge is very well positioned right now

---

Reading is tech