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yeah it might be faster than reanimator and protected against stuff like karakas/stp so that's a good point,
but is pact of negation or fow /flustersotrm enough cause you need to crack the led before going off so then they can surgical easily your led after you discarded your whole hand
silence might do the trick though
If you have enough cards in graveyard you can cast the pact from the graveyard by exiling 3.
But once you discard a Pact, all you need to do is Escape it by Exiling 3 cards, which it's likely you have also discarded with LED. So, if Pact was in your hand, they likely won't be able to Surgical you.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
So goldfished a lot, I found the following sufficient to go-off Turn 3 almost always:
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 LED
4 Underworld Break
4 Brainfreeze
2 Entomb
2 Breakthrough
1 Non-Brainfreeze win Con
Aiming at turn 3 means about 20 lands/accel - at this point I just have blanks in my deck because:
with the 19 cards remaining . . . why not run a shit ton of protection? I'm talking Discard Spells, Force and Pact? Like, imagining that we also want to run brainstorm (we do), what about something like this:
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Force of Will (in testing you're not quite running enough blue cards to make 4 FOWs work . . . I think you can get away with 2, and maybe replace the other 2 with Dazes depending on the mana base?)
4 Pact of Negation
Given that you're aiming slower you can probably get away with running 16 lands and 4 Petals? Your turn 1/2 win % drops heavily but you're running 8 counters and 6 discard spells.
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Edit: in addition to the above I was also testing what the fastest and most consistent I can make the deck. I got it down to a very consistent turn 2 kill with this monstrosity (aiming for a turn 2, producing 1WBR, casting enlightened tutor into free draw, into your combo).
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 LED
4 Underworld Break
4 Brainfreeze
4 Entomb
3 Breakthrough
1 Non-Brainfreeze win Con
14 Lands
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Streetwraith
4 Manamorphose
ok you are right tyQuote:
If you have enough cards in graveyard you can cast the pact from the graveyard by exiling 3.
Yeah that's another option. Without as many tutors and fast mana the turn 1/2 % drops heavily, but that is a lot of protection!
I think FoW is bad here. Your blue count is low, you really don't want to pitch Brain Freeze, and FoW has anti-synergy with LED. You can cast Pact any time during the combo, but you can only cast FoW from the opening hand.
Instead of FoW what about something proactive like 2 more discard, or Silence? Or Ponders to help sculpt for turn 3?
Was Breakthrough good for you? I find it awkward. Pay U, exile 3 cards: mill 4, netting 1 card. Repeat 2 more times. Exile 3 cards: recast LED to make another UUU. Net result: +4 storm but gaining 0 cards and 0 mana. Maybe I'm missing something but it seems like you exile just about every thing just to break even. Why not play 2 more Entombs to get Brain Freeze?
I was using it to milldown to find brainfreeze. There was always an extra card in the grave for me to just leave one card of my choice in the grave until I found brainfreeze and then I can continue the loop. I use entomb to start the combo, but it's not great at continuing the combo because it doesn't mill you allowing you to escape the card yo search for (unless its the beginning of the combo). You can also replace breakthrough with Tome Scour - which lets you do the same thing breakthrough does but adds 3 cards to your grave beyond what you need to loop it and thus you don't need an extra card in the grave to allow you to leave brainfreeze in the yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
The free draw is interesting. In my testing I was thinking that this deck really wants Gitaxian Probe. With a free draw, you can ETutor or even Scheming Symmetry for any combo piece and go off the same turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
But Scheming really backfires without the free draw...
Definitely think it is the wrong direction for the deck, but it was fun trying it out. I think the correct route is to aim for turn 3 win with protection (hell you can get away with -4 protection +4 accel for game 1 and bring in the more protection game 2, but shell to me is the 20 Accel/Lands, 21 "Combo", 4 Brainstorm, 15 Protection (or more accel depending on your disposition).Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I was too. But I don't like the idea of exiling everything but Brain Freeze. I liked to keep some tools I milled through (e.g. Entomb, LED, Pact) to open up more lines of play. For example, what if you wanted to keep Pact open and need fuel for it? And I never wanted to be in a position where I was forced to exile my 1-of Tendrils because I randomly milled it while digging for Brain Freeze. (Even though you can win without Tendrils, it saved me a lot of effort/time/clicks in sequencing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Tome Scour might be better than Breakthrough, just digging deeper and letting you keep more cards. Pre-combo you can also cast it to start filling your yard without having to dump your hand. Also, you get bonus lulz for registering Tome Scour in a sanctioned Legacy tournament.
Edit: Underword Breach gives Escape to creatures too. Is it worth considering something like Stitcher's Supplier + Cabal Therapy?
That's a fair point and I'll use Tome Scour over my Breakthroughs going forward. It is one card deeper, and helps you "search" for your pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Also, to give a sample of how consistent the combo is given the tutoring, you ideally want to mulligan to find the following in your hand:
2 Manasources(lands or accel)
1 LED/Enlightened Tutor/Entomb
1 Brainfreeze/Breakthrough (or Tome Scour)/Entomb
1 Underworld Breach/Enlightened Tutor
1 Protection
For most of the combo you have 10+ cards for each piece except Underworld Breach. That's why I was initially testing Infernal Tutor, because that's the only card I can find that can add consistency on that end. The issue in my list was space. Also given that I aimed for turn 3, I usually had the above before going off. Just go really aggressive for mulliganing into the bold.
Yeah with all the tutors there is crazy redundancy and the London mulligan feels like cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
That's why I initially ran both 4 Gamble and 4 Infernal Tutor. 90% of the time I Gambled for Underworld Breach, because the others are easier to find. But then sometimes you discard Breach or the 2nd mana source and you're suddenly in topdeck mode.Quote:
For most of the combo you have 10+ cards for each piece except Underworld Breach.
In my testing, I found Infernal Tutor -> Breach awkward. It costs 2 and only tutors after you crack LED, which means you need LED in play (not Entombed or milled). Then you usually don't want to crack LED before resolving Breach (you lose your hand), and you can't even use the LED mana to cast Breach unless you also have the gas to go off that turn.
To go off you basically need 2 mana + LED + Infernal Tutor + Brain Freeze in hand and 5 other cards in GY/hand. Cast Infernal Tutor, crack LED for RRR in response, search for Breach and cast it. Escape LED, exiling IT + 2 cards. Crack for UUU. Escape Brain Freeze, exiling 3 more cards. That's just too much graveyard fuel needed and also means there's a window where Pact of Negation can't protect you. You can avoid Escaping LED and save 3 cards with a 3rd mana source producing blue or red, but my build wasn't designed for that.
The turn 3 list might be able to pull it off. You just need 3 lands + LED + Infernal Tutor + Brain Freeze/Tome Scour + 2 other cards in GY/hand. But there's still the issue of pwning your own Pact.
This is the correct take :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I goldfished a few matches with the protected strategy. It doesn't have the random "rituals into Tendrils" option, but overall the protection seems much better, and it's still fast!
Here's what I ran:
//Lands: 16
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Tundra
//Artifacts: 8
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
//Enchantments: 4
4 Underworld Breach
//Protection: 11
4 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
//Dig: 16
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Entomb
2 Tome Scour
//Win Conditions: 5
4 Brain Freeze
1 Tendrils of Agony
Goldfish results
- Mull to 6 -> Turn 2 win
Turn 1 win unprotected
Turn 3 win with Duress + Pact
Turn 3 win with Thoughtseize + Pact
Turn 3 win with Duress
Mull to 5 -> Turn 4 win with T1 Thoughtseize and a backup Breach
Turn 2 win unprotected or double cantrip to try for Turn 3 protected
Turn 2 win with Pact
Turn 2 unprotected
Mull to 6 -> Turn 2 win with Pact
Turn 2 unprotected or Turn 3 with Thoughtseize
Mull to 6 -> Turn 2 win with Duress
Turn 2 win with Pact
Mull to 6 -> Turn 2 win with Pact
Turn 2 unprotected
Mull to 6 -> Turn 4 win with Thoughtseize + Duress (took 3 Brainstorms to dig!)
That's a lot of hands that can kill on turn 2, some with protection!
Also Tome Scour is surprisingly good. It can even refresh chaff from Brainstorm/Ponder while adding fuel to go off next turn.
Unlike most Storm decks we can afford to run Thoughtseize because we don't have Ad Nauseam or painlands. TS is just better. Duress can't hit Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Inquisition of Kozilek can't hit Force of Will.
Just off the top of my head, maybe Cabal Therapy? Probably not exactly better since you could just whiff though.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Also, I just want to note the prospective notion of Plateau in a Storm deck, what a time to be alive, :laugh:
FTW: That list looks close to perfect. Some thoughts:
1) As you note the duress spot should be flexible due to meta, cabal therapy is a highly risky bet that can still target whatever card you're afraid of in the moment. Before you go off you hit FOW for example.
2) Why Tendrils over other options? You can cast Grapeshot or Lightning bolt before you go off to target a creature for example OR you can use Burning wish as a one of (to search for win con when you're going off) and use it to search for a solution or other helpful card. That is all preferable to Tendrils staying in your hand as chaff.
3) Do you find Ponder that helpful? I am wondering if it can just be more fuel or protection?
Lol yeah. It made most sense as the 2nd white source, more than Scrubland, since Enlightened Tutor (white) into Underworld Breach (red) is a sequence that will come up a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Because you're in white already, might it make sense to run an idyllic tutor? With an LED in hand it functions like an infernal tutor, but you can just cast it on turn 2 or turn 3. It also might make sense to run 1 wishclaw talisman since you can cast it turn 1 and pass the turn. (then you have 5 ways to have breach in hand by turn 2)
Good question!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Tendrils needs lower Storm and fewer cards exiled. Once you hit 6+ storm and 15-20 cards in GY, you can just double LED into BBBBBB -> Entomb -> Tendrils. It's a lot fewer clicks and just saves me time and energy to execute a win.
It's very rarely in hand as chaff. It's 1 copy in the deck and you can London mull it away, Brainstorm it back, hide it lower with Ponder, or it gets pitched to LED with your hand.
Winning with Lightning Bolt requires casting 7 bolts (exiling 21 cards) + 3 LEDs for 7+ red mana (exiling 9 cards). Not only is that tedious to execute, but it's 30 cards = half your deck just to kill, on top of the cards needed to Brain Freeze your deck in the first place. When you test, do you actually play it out and confirm you have enough cards to win with Lightning Bolt? I think it could fizzle sometimes.
Grapeshot has a lot of utility for killing hatebears, but needs 20 Storm to kill. If you exile 3 cards per spell (LED, Brain Freeze, etc), how do you generate 20 storm with a 60 card deck? Sometimes you can, but I could see this fizzling. Have you played it out to ensure it doesn't fizzle?
Even they don't fizzle, Bolt and Grapeshot seem way more tedious to execute. You can't shortcut the loop (even in paper) because the cards you mill and cards you choose to exile matter.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of card selection. It can find fuel or protection or just smooth out the mana. I think it reduces variance, but maybe it's optimal to add 1-2 more protection slots.Quote:
3) Do you find Ponder that helpful? I am wondering if it can just be more fuel or protection?
Edit: Burning Wish into Tendrils is probably better than maindeck Tendrils. I just think Tendrils is better than Bolt/Grapeshot.
@FTW: Great response. I have fizzled with LB once but not with Grapeshot, important to note that you don't cast it with 20 storm. You cast it with like 9 Storm and then recast it with 10 Storm (so in assuming that cards you exile are (X-1)*3) where X is storm count, instead of needing to exile 57 cards you only really need to exile 27 (you can also cast it at storm count 6, recast at 7 and 8 FTW (so only need to exile 21 cards)). Additionally, in regarding to your thought process regarding Tendrils, burning wish fulfills the same role with just one extra step (and thus 3 more cards) and will never be junk. At the worst it can search up more protection, search or accel.