[Deck] EATS!

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I admit, I have not tried him in this particular deck. But I have always hated him in every other build of Survival I have run.

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I think it may be that I'm the only Survival player running both Quirion Ranger and Rofellos. Those two combined with Masticore are like the ultimate anti-aggro combo. Without Ranger Masticore is a lot weaker, but still really good.

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Actually we do see a lot of Loam here. Enough that I may maindeck a Wretch if I run this. If you had to maindeck one, which would it be?

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Probably Withered Wretch, simply because it removes the card. With Loaming Shaman, they have the possibility of just getting the stuff back, especially if it's a Loam variant. Simply throwing the Loam and Barbarian Rings and whatever back in their deck is just going to stall them a bit until they get going again, whereas Withered Wretch just ends it. The BB really shouldn't be an issue with the amount of black mana sources available, not to mention Loam decks are so slow you have a bit of time to find them if it comes to it.

Sorry for such a brief post but I just played the deck to a 10th place finish at the Tropical Island tournament, going 3-1-1, missing top 8 on breakers. I'll give a brief tournament report later, Matchups and how they went. The field. All that jazz. Overall, the deck was awesome. I beat turn 2 empty the warrens for 10 goblin tokens without Spore Frog or Sharpshooter. It was savage.

So double post, whatever. Who cares.

I've been thinking alot about the deck and any changes that it could take or directions it could go. Basically... I never felt confidant going into a matchup. The deck always seemed to give me a whole boatload of accelerants with nothing to dump the mana into when Survival didn't stick. I never felt dominant. I didn't feel like I was locking anyone out of the game, and without Survival I didn't feel like I could do anything but generate boatloads of mana and do Tradewind tricks.

I wanted more discard and more fat. I wanted more bombs and less Tinder wall (which was bad for me all day). Werebear seemed out of place and Bone shredder was pretty bad too. Overall, I had a good tournament, yet I really wanted some changes.

Tradewind rider has lost his flare for me. Without Seedborn and the deck built around him he's often not survivaled for because winning with combat damage is a better option most of the time. I spent more mana trying to get TWR/QR/3randomcritters than I can remember, and getting FTKs and blowing their shit to hell would have been stronger and left a stronger board position considering their life total actually being in danger. Confidant has to be 4-of. He's just so fucking good.

Which brings me to what I would like. STP / Glowrider / Hierarch are very strong, but I wouldn't want to go to the 4th color without Brainstorm, because honestly it wouldn't feel consistant enough. Enlightened tutor is a no-no when you're trying to not be dependant on Survival. So... white for the time being for me is out.

G/R/b seems to provide 3 total bombs. Survival/Confidant/Burning Wish. With Flametounge Kavus, Eternal Witness, and Jitte coming into the picture... You have an absolutely huge number of threats. Duress or Therapy to clear the Counters and fight Combo, Midrange beaters to seal the game, and amazing SB options like Plague and Pillar... you have a strong deck.

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4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress

4 Dark Confidant
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Quirrion Ranger
1 Rofellos

3 Eternal Witness
3 Tin-street Hooligan
4 Flametounge Kavu
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis

4 Taiga
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
1 Mountain

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tsunami
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shatterstorm
1 Anarchy
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Loaming Shaman


Overall, it's largely untested, but it stands alot of tried and true principles of RGSA, with alot of added power in the form of Confidant. Llanowar elves are in there to be coupled with Jitte, rather than more BOP, but running 3 colors can be troublesome so they're neccessary. I've been liking the 3-3 split. Anger/Genesis/Squee are all staples, can't leave home without em. 2 Umezawa's Jitte have been freaking crazy. They may not always curve with the deck all that well, or couple with Survival, but the raw brokenness of the card just shines through all that jazz. It's often removal for an opposing Jitte, which could certainly ruin your day, or it completely top decks you into a win. The card's good here, but SoFI has gone through my mind as well. I'm not sure which is better, but for now I'm leaning toward Jitte. 3 Maindeck Tin-street may look stupid, but Pithing Needle is really common, Jitte and Vial are really common. Stupid stuff like Vedalken Shackles will just piss in your cereal, and you need to be able to draw removal without Survival. They're really important and destroying certain bombs that make your games alot harder. 3 Witness' are gross. They give everything you have flashback with a body. 4 FTK/ 3 Baloth are the beats. You need some fat to actually apply substantial pressure and at least form a nice clock. The utility added on is just cake.

The wishboard is pretty standard. Tsunami for Gro/Solidarity/Landstill. Pyroclasm for Goblins. Shatterstorm for Affinity. Anarchy for AngelStompy or any white aggro, and Cranial Extraction for Life from the Loam, Opposing Survivals, Helldozers when IBA get back into legacy, and just a general card that isn't an answer to use B-Wish for. Goblin Pyromancer is Duh, obviously. Loaming Shaman is for *****, or even IGGY. Anything Graveyard heavy, especially Thresh, who can lock up your ground with blockers, and extend right into Loaming Shaman. Plague is for Goblins, and is pretty good all around. Clerics. Birds. Merfolk. Touchin ALOT o' bases there. Pyrostatic Pillar is just a fuckin MVP. Solidarity - Iggy - TES - Eggs - Thresh - Gro, it always comes in. It's good good good, way better than REB or Sirrocco or something of that sort.

So there you have it. My honest attempt at producing something relevant and at least powerful in a competant players hands. It feels alot like old school Hulk Smash. The best cards that the 3 colors have to offer, welding together in a soup of awesomesauce. The bombs just keep dropping, and you can still go apeshit with survival when it drops. I like the deck alot, and I know it's alot different than ATS, but this is the only place where modern survival builds should be discussed methinks. I'm not saying that this deck is strictly better, not at all, I'm just saying that Tradewind Rider didn't feel all that strong to me. Tinder wall felt like I had to overextend to produce anything, and Werebear felt out of place. Confidant, however, is absolutely broken, and this is just another take on the archtype. I hope you like it.

K..but, you could've just posted all that jazz in the RGBSA thread, since you know, that list above is a different version of RGBSA.

Now, onto the juice.

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I've been thinking alot about the deck and any changes that it could take or directions it could go. Basically... I never felt confidant going into a matchup. The deck always seemed to give me a whole boatload of accelerants with nothing to dump the mana into when Survival didn't stick. I never felt dominant. I didn't feel like I was locking anyone out of the game, and without Survival I didn't feel like I could do anything but generate boatloads of mana and do Tradewind tricks.

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First, if you're not feeling confident going into a matchup to begin with, then I'm assuming you aren't a confident player in general. Unless I'm playing against combo, I go into pretty much every matchup with confidence. That's reflected in your play. You can't limp into a matchup hoping to smash the opponent.

Sometimes you can stall, sometimes you go retarded. It will happen.

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I wanted more discard and more fat. I wanted more bombs and less Tinder wall (which was bad for me all day). Werebear seemed out of place and Bone shredder was pretty bad too. Overall, I had a good tournament, yet I really wanted some changes.

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Did you play against Goblins at all? Tinder Wall is like, the best card you can get in that matchup. If it was bad for you all day then I'm assuming you played mostly against decks like Threshold or something of the like. You know, not aggro. Which is why it's there. Tinder Wall's main priority is Goblins, not acceleration. That's merely a bonus. Bone Shredder is a necessary evil. He's a lot weaker than FTK, but he kills things FTK can't, and a turn faster. I'm baffled how you dislike Werebear. He's pretty much become the norm in aggressive Survival decks, being the cheapest beatstick available.

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Tradewind rider has lost his flare for me. Without Seedborn and the deck built around him he's often not survivaled for because winning with combat damage is a better option most of the time. I spent more mana trying to get TWR/QR/3randomcritters than I can remember, and getting FTKs and blowing their shit to hell would have been stronger and left a stronger board position considering their life total actually being in danger. Confidant has to be 4-of. He's just so fucking good.

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This really leads me to believe that you just played the deck incorrectly. It is nothing like the older builds. You aren't supposed to be wasting your time with Tradewind tricks and locking the game up. Tradewind Rider is there to force damage through when possible, and to play defense when necessary. You can't win through the attack phase when Exalted Angels and Mystic Enforcers are in your face. It's not there to win the game. If getting FTK and bashing was the better play, then why weren't you just doing that? The main point of this deck is to play very aggressively using all the resources possible, and it seems like you were just trying to dance around with it.


I'm not going to critique the deck because I don't think it belongs in here (but will offer some suggestions), but it doesn't look bad. Duress should be Cabal Therapy though, because that will hit a Goblin Lackey and has better synergy overall with the deck, I would drop the Quirion Ranger because it's a wasted slot when your only use for it is Rofellos, and despite what you believe a Bone Shredder should be in there because pro-red men or x/x>4 men will eat you alive. Exalted Angel comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Diablos

This really leads me to believe that you just played the deck incorrectly. It is nothing like the older builds. You aren't supposed to be wasting your time with Tradewind tricks and locking the game up. Tradewind Rider is there to force damage through when possible, and to play defense when necessary. You can't win through the attack phase when Exalted Angels and Mystic Enforcers are in your face. It's not there to win the game. If getting FTK and bashing was the better play, then why weren't you just doing that? The main point of this deck is to play very aggressively using all the resources possible, and it seems like you were just trying to dance around with it.


I'm not going to critique the deck because I don't think it belongs in here (but will offer some suggestions), but it doesn't look bad. Duress should be Cabal Therapy though, because that will hit a Goblin Lackey and has better synergy overall with the deck, I would drop the Quirion Ranger because it's a wasted slot when your only use for it is Rofellos, and despite what you believe a Bone Shredder should be in there because pro-red men or x/x>4 men will eat you alive. Exalted Angel comes to mind.

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I didn't go for Tradewinds when it was incorrect to do so, because tradewind is a very safe play, and is very easily defendable. It's safe against STP and generally makes every one of your threats stronger. The point I was making is that it just seems out of place now. Even if it's purpose is to force through damage or stall according to the position... it's pretty bad at doing that against goblins or without a board full of critters. And if you're trying to force through damage... You're taking away 3 creatures to bounce one and send creatures into the red zone? That unlikely situation is assuming that you DONT have Survival, ( Because you could just tutor for removal (Or Guilded Drake if the situation was relevant)) You have 4 + creatures on the board, and your opponent is sitting back on a big creature to block. As far as I'm concerned, getting through damage isn't a very supportable argument. Stalling... sure, but that's the thing. I don't think it's neccessary, or even all that common of a situation anymore. When you resolve Survival now... Tradewinds become terrible because they aren't an aggressive card. I guess it's just wierd NOT having them be the core of the deck, that's all. The only really great thing I could see missing is losing alot of come into play tricks with Witness/FTK/CartographerAKAMowgli lol, but even those are mana intensive and stop you from attacking for that turn.

It's Duress over Therapy because it's better against combo and can't whiff. Goblins is less of an issue for the deck than the combo match, and Cabal therapy doesn't really help much in the Goblins matchup anyways. Besides, the deck runs alot less creatures that it can sac and not worry about. Duress seems much safer to me and more appropriate with the theme of the deck. Resolve a Bomb and ride it all the way.

Basically, I like ATS. I'll probably still play it, but I'm finding it hard to support some of the card choices. It's hard to challenge your views on the topic of Survival because you wrote the book, but I'm going to take it into a new direction, No harm no foul.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but the difference between Troopatroop's list and modern RGBSA are as follows:

Troopatroop to RGBSA
-4 Dark Confidant
-2 or 3 Tin Street Hooligan
-1 Quirion Ranger
-3 Llanowar Elves
-2 Jitte

+4 Werebear
+1 Birds of Paradise
+1 Duress
+3 Cabal Therapy
+1 Tin Street Hooligan / Indrik Stomphowler
+1 Bone Shredder
+ 2 Basics

Werebears replace Elves because they beat, and you have 7 other one drops, and Bobs aren't in the list because I (and everyone else) haven't worked on it since Bob was established as amazing (Shame on me for playing Thresh). The only real differences are Bob and Jitte vs Duress and some extra land.

As far as EATS goes, I like the change from RGBSA, but I am not sure it is worth it. Tinder wall is just sexy, though. I'm going to keep playing with it, but I am not sure it will end up being better then the RGB version of Survival.

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Even if it's purpose is to force through damage or stall according to the position... it's pretty bad at doing that against goblins or without a board full of critters. And if you're trying to force through damage... You're taking away 3 creatures to bounce one and send creatures into the red zone? T

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Generally if you're going to be tapping creatures other than Tradewind Rider, it will be those who won't be attacking ala Birds of Paradise, Tinder Wall, Rofellos, or Quirion Ranger. Generally you will have any combination of 2 of those on the board, so it really doesn't hinder your attack.

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You have 4 + creatures on the board, and your opponent is sitting back on a big creature to block. As far as I'm concerned, getting through damage isn't a very supportable argument.

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It is, because this deck isn't designed to sit back and play control and fiddle around while the opponent does things. This deck in many aspects is RGBSA with some variability to it. Unlike the deck of old, I'm trying to win the game as fast as possible, so that damage does matter. These days decks can turn against you very quickly with a single draw, so you need to be able to strike as quickly as possible.

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When you resolve Survival now... Tradewinds become terrible because they aren't an aggressive card

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This would depend on the situation. If I resolve a Survival and my opponent is sitting on two lands, I'm going to go nuts and attack his manabase. It all depends on the gamestate to determine when it will be an aggressive card or a defensive card, but that's what I really like about it. No other creature in the deck can change its gameplan like that.

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Cabal therapy doesn't really help much in the Goblins matchup anyways. Besides, the deck runs alot less creatures that it can sac and not worry about.

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Excuse me? Cabal Therapy hitting Goblin Lackey doesn't help? What about a Ringleader after they cast Matron. Or after they play Matron in general? What about Gempalm Incincerator? Honestly have you used Therapy against Goblins? Post-board I keep them in every time because they are just as good as removal.

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Basically, I like ATS. I'll probably still play it, but I'm finding it hard to support some of the card choices. It's hard to challenge your views on the topic of Survival because you wrote the book, but I'm going to take it into a new direction, No harm no foul.

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That's fine, and I applaud you for it.


@ RGBSA differences.

I wasn't stating that his decklist was RGBSA really, but I was merely saying that it is far more similiar to that than EATS.



Also on an unrelated note, I actually am currently debating dropping the 2nd Tradewind and 2nd Rofellos(maybe). It's not that I feel their slots are weak, but I'm trying to figure out what needs more improvement. I've been tossing some ideas in the air lately, mainly a 3rd FTK, possible 4th Dark Confidant although I dislike it, a 2nd Tin Street Hooligan, a 20th land, and some other slots. Not really sure though.

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Originally Posted by Diablos

I think it may be that I'm the only Survival player running both Quirion Ranger and Rofellos.

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Not quite - I like the mana ramping to power out a combo finish (Kiki-Jiki + Sky Hussar, usually assisted by a Karmic Guide to ease colour requirements). Going through all the effort merely to achieve Threshold or machine-gun weenies seems a waste :)

Your recent posts explaining how your finished version plays has sparked my interest anew; my list was slightly crude - winning combo, beaters and support creatures, very little in the way of utility. I dismissed the 'control-ish' aspects as irrelevant because the plan was to win quickly, decisively and through brute force; apparently I should have tested traditional parts in new roles more thoroughly before dismissing them.

Thank you for the erudite analysis; it helps understand the deck and even helps refining completely different ones ;)

@troopatroop's RGB list: Consider -1 FTK, +1 Masticore. you're already running the Rofellos and Ranger so you have that hook-up built in. Plus, he gives you another Survivalable answer to pro-red dudes and Mother of Runes besides the Anarchy.
For the side, I prefer Seeds of Innocence over Shatterstorm since 1GG is way easier on the mana base than 2RR. It's also nice to be able to wish and play it on the same turn.

Sorry I didn't quote your list for reference but the last two times I tried to do that Mozilla crashed on me.

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@troopatroop's RGB list: Consider -1 FTK, +1 Masticore. you're already running the Rofellos and Ranger so you have that hook-up built in. Plus, he gives you another Survivalable answer to pro-red dudes and Mother of Runes besides the Anarchy.
For the side, I prefer Seeds of Innocence over Shatterstorm since 1GG is way easier on the mana base than 2RR. It's also nice to be able to wish and play it on the same turn.

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I forgot to mention the Masticore. If you keep Ranger, Masticore should be in there. If Ranger is dropped, it should be an FTK. Mother of Runes can seriously gives decks like these fits (another reason why Tradewind Rider is so good. Just ask Mr. Nightmare how the deck fought through 4 Mother of Runes and 2 Meddling Mage on the table.)

Also, I think Meltdown is better than both Seeds and Shatterstorm. Seeds really interferes with the whole aggro plan when you give them a bunch of life to play with, and Shatterstorm is RR. Not that RR should be an issue, but it would probably not be able to be played until the turn after, as having RRR on one turn is rare without Tinder Wall. Meltdown has a flexible casting cost, and considering the highest cc artifact in the format is what..4,5(?) it shouldn't be an issue. Also, in that list you run 3 Tin Street anyway, so it probably wouldn't be used too often.

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Originally Posted by Diablos

I forgot to mention the Masticore. If you keep Ranger, Masticore should be in there. If Ranger is dropped, it should be an FTK. Mother of Runes can seriously gives decks like these fits (another reason why Tradewind Rider is so good. Just ask Mr. Nightmare how the deck fought through 4 Mother of Runes and 2 Meddling Mage on the table.)

Also, I think Meltdown is better than both Seeds and Shatterstorm. Seeds really interferes with the whole aggro plan when you give them a bunch of life to play with, and Shatterstorm is RR. Not that RR should be an issue, but it would probably not be able to be played until the turn after, as having RRR on one turn is rare without Tinder Wall. Meltdown has a flexible casting cost, and considering the highest cc artifact in the format is what..4,5(?) it shouldn't be an issue. Also, in that list you run 3 Tin Street anyway, so it probably wouldn't be used too often.

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The lifegain isn't serious and wouldn't say it really interferes with the aggro plan. I'm fine with affinity gaining 8 life if it makes them pick up their board. I can see one good aspect for Meltdown is when/if you want to kill a Pithing Needle w/o killing your Jitte. Of course, then you could wish for Hull Breach so it doesn't matter much.

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Originally Posted by Diablos

Meltdown has a flexible casting cost, and considering the highest cc artifact in the format is what..4,5(?) it shouldn't be an issue. Also, in that list you run 3 Tin Street anyway, so it probably wouldn't be used too often.

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Theoretically it is 7 for Myr Enforcer otherwise I think you are right.

Just a small update. I've been doing a bit of testing with the slight changes in the decklist last couple of days, toying with a number of different cards and slots. I'm doing this because the midgame performance needs to be better. I've been happy with it so far, but it could definately improve.

Cards that I've been testing:

- 3rd FTK. Additional removal and beater is always good. A solid midgame draw without Survival, and with it makes any aggro matchup a little better.

- 4th Dark Confidant. This has been a love/hate thing for me. Despite my prior judgments, I believe I might just end up going to 4 because of the likelyhood of the first one being countered/destroyed, and it is certainly a poweful midgame draw.

- 2nd Quirion Ranger. I actually want this slot a lot, because Ranger plays an integral role in the gameplan with the deck, as well as a great defense for Wasteland. However, I'm unsure if it's better than the slot that is currently in its place (Rofellos) simply because Rofellos is much more powerful.

- 20th land. This is my least favorite of the choices, but I figured I'd try it out. Generally, unless it's like some long control matchup, I don't want to see more than 4 land a game. More is nice of course, but it means I'm not drawing threats. Very rarely do I find myself begging for lands, and more often than not I end the game with more in play than I need/want. But still, it doesn't hurt to try it. I haven't seen too huge of a difference with it yet, but it's early in testing.

- 2nd Ravenous Baloth. It hasn't been amazing, but nothing spectacular. In the matchups this matters in (for the most part), I'd rather just take the FTK.

- Plaxmanta. This was in my list for about 3 months, and I cut him about a week prior to the GAGG. I felt his only strong matchup was Goblins, and if I was going to run a maindeck card that is really only good in that matchup, it'd be Pyromancer. However, I'm not going to make my slots that narrow, so it's most likely not making the cut.

- Orcish Settlers. I run Rofellos and I run Quirion Ranger. I add like 8-10 mana by turn 4-5. That's gotta be worth something. Even destroying something like 3 lands would be game changing if I have a Survival on the table. However, the way I see it is if I'm able to add that amount of mana, I should be killing the opponent in a turn anyway with a storm of beatsticks, so I'm leaning against doing the cool thing here. However, it does have a lot of perks to it, so I'll be giving it a bit more testing.

- 2nd Tin Street Hooligan. This isn't bad by any means because of all the potential problems there are with Needle, Vial, Jitte, Affinity, etc. However outside of that he's terrible. If Needle is the problem, I'm thinking another Dark Confidant would be better in this slot just to draw through it rather than killing it considering Survival might not be on the table anyway.

- Mesmeric Fiend. There's just been a lot of times where tutoring up a Duress could be really beneficial. Overall though he's an incredibly weak maindeck slot that doesn't beat so I'm not sure if it weighs up.

As for cards that I'm potentially removing, there are unfortunately very few:

- 2nd Tradewind Rider. For me this is a very tough call because its replacement's uses would be limited compared to this, but I'm trying to figure out if the potential advantages of a replacement would end up being better. It all depends on what I replace it with though. This has been the slot that most of the cards listed above have been tried in, and so far I'm not overly amazed, but not dismissing anything. An FTK would make sense for aggro because it will 2-for-1 them while providing a clock, but I lose the potential defensive position that FTK can poorly deal with while something like 2 Tradewind Riders would always win. Bob provides the cards, but needs to draw into them. Nowhere on Dark Confidant does is say "permanent removal." The other slots didn't really compete much with it, because they lower my removal count, but that doesn't mean I'm overly against them.

- 2nd Rofellos. This one's a tossup, because basically the primary cards that would replace it are one's that affect the manabase, being Q Ranger and a Forest. This is actually a very difficult choice to make, because the advantages of each slot are really high. For the moment I'm sticking with the 2nd Rofellos, simply because he is the biggest target in the deck, and it's really annoying the work to get him back after it dies.

- 4th Cabal Therapy. This is probably not going to change, but being one of the weaker midgame draws, I figured I'd test it anyway. I haven't seen a huge difference yet, but the fact that it puts me with one less turn 1 answer to Lackey and combo disrupter is a huge turnoff. I'll probably sacrifice a mediocre midgame draw for a solid early-game disruption spell.

- 3rd Werebear. This is another slot that probably won't end up changing, because I added them in this deck for their midgame strength. Midgame you will almost always have Threshold, so it'll never be a bad draw, and it provides early acceleration. With Survival, you churn out all 3 of them and win the game. But still, it's worth seeing if a change would be better, but I doubt it.

That's just the maindeck. Now onto the sideboard.

For the most part I've been happy with the sideboard because it fulfills my needs of the rougher matchups. But there's still probably room for improvement. My biggest gripe atm is with Hypnotic Specter. I added it because it provides a recursive discard outlet against decks like Solidarity which is rather huge because they can beat through this deck after a Duress or 2. However he's slow. Unless I'm with a turn 1 BoP play for the turn 2 Hippy, he isn't online until turn 4. And against Solidarity, this means I can probably expect him to be Remanded turn 3, so I play him turn 4, try to attack turn 5, and lose in response. I'm just thinking a more immediate solution might be a better idea. I haven't tested it yet, but I'm debating cutting them to go back to a 3rd Mesmeric Fiend and add a 3rd Arcane Lab. Arcane Lab is freaking nuts right now. The Tendrils-based decks in the format just sort of die to it, and Solidarity has only 3 outs to it, giving you plenty of time to disrupt them and/or kill them. A lot of people like Pyrostatic Pillar, but I think it's easier to play around that because Solidarity can board in Blast if they want, and Tendrils decks can do a double Tendrils play on you. Another option is Cabal Interrogator. He's really good because he's recurring discard as well and cheaper, but he pretty much limits me from playing other spells that turn. Headhunter is a possibility, providing discard every turn for a cheaper cost but at the price of them choosing it. I really don't know, I'm just throwing out options here.

Basically anyone who's working with the deck please try out some of those ideas I was working with to see if you're finding anything good out as well, and if you're trying other things not mentioned to success let me know. :)

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Originally Posted by Diablos

My biggest gripe atm is with Hypnotic Specter. I added it because it provides a recursive discard outlet against decks like Solidarity which is rather huge because they can beat through this deck after a Duress or 2. However he's slow. Unless I'm with a turn 1 BoP play for the turn 2 Hippy, he isn't online until turn 4. And against Solidarity, this means I can probably expect him to be Remanded turn 3, so I play him turn 4, try to attack turn 5, and lose in response. I'm just thinking a more immediate solution might be a better idea.

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Originally Posted by Re: Okiba-Gang Shinobi

Plus, it's 4 mana Ninjitsu didn't help much because it was so slow. The option of getting Hippy down turn 2 is insanely good against decks like Thresh or Solidarity, so that's why it's there.

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So you know that Okiba will swing the same turn as Hyppie, can't be Remanded, does more damage, and isn't double black, right?

This is true. Thank you for bringing that back up. I'm surprised he escaped my radar of cards worth testing. I'll be trying him out in that slot, but for now I'm going with the following change:

-2 Hypnotic Specter
+1 Duress
+1 Mesmeric Fiend

If Okiba-Gang proves to be better then I'll definately be using him. However, Okiba doesn't have the option of being played turn 2. That was one of the perks for Hippy.

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Originally Posted by Diablos

However, Okiba doesn't have the option of being played turn 2. That was one of the perks for Hippy.

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But he can actually be swinging on Turn 3, which is essentially the same thing. Without any testing to base it on, it seems about as difficult to get a turn 2 Hyppy as it does to get a turn 3 swinging Okiba, although I might be wrong there. Also, if you topdeck him a little later, Okiba can swing the turn you topdeck him, without an Anger. Once Survival is active, they seem about equal. If I pick the deck up again though, I'll test him out.

Have you tested Trinket Mage in this deck at all? I've been playing it a lot in Extended and it really shines, it seems like in Legacy it could be even better. You only have to run one or two maybe, but then you can get things like Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypt, or Pithing Needle, which all help the Goblins/Thresh matchup, and some other ones as well. You can also run a single Sensei's Divining Top to fetch to negate life loss from Confidant and strengthen your draws.

I wouldn't know what to cut though, and it could potentially raise the number of non-creatures a little high. Just an idea I had, since I've been trying to port Trinket Mage into Legacy for awhile now.

Alright I can't recall some of the issues exactly as thay happened but while I was at the TMLO 2 I played this and the mana base seemed to be an issue. While I was playing it seems like against goblins and when survival is not online you HAVE to get to 4 mana which is really hard to do around port and wasteland. And when you finally do get to 4 it seems to be the wrong color or something. Also situations have come up when it is like "omg if I draw a land right here I will win the game" but I missed sveral times. My guess is this deck is running too little mana sources. You also don't want to sack wall for mana against goblins early because both blocking and the shock ability is very very helpful. Alnother situation has come up where you doing fine than all of the suddenn they kill your 1/1 mana producing guy and waste your land and you immediatly lose board position. I have no idea of whether or not these issues have been talked about before as I NEVER read deck threads but like I said sorry I can't recall EXACT situations. Playing this deck only once I have no right to criticize this deck and I would'nt because this deck is very good and fun to play. If you tweak some of the cards I am sure you could make this deck perform better.

I ended up cutting the 2nd Rofellos for the 20th land. It's the same number of mana sources, but I came to the conclusion it's more important to have those early land drops that the busted mana acceleration. The primary reason I ran the 2nd Rofellos was for Goblins because they pick him off so easily, but in testing today with Goblins against Nightmare, roughly 7-8 games not a lot I know, but I used Rofellos in only one game and I won a majority of them, so I guess I overestimated how important he was to the matchup.


EDIT: I forgot to mention about the land that it is currently a 4th Forest. That's obviously the best choice for it, but lately I've really been craving a 3rd Taiga. It's just that double Wasteland, in the rare event that occurs, really hinders my red mana supply. If I were to go to the 3rd Taiga, it'd most likely be for that 4th Forest. The other contender would be the 4th Tropical Island, however I feel that it's important to have as many blue mana sources as possible turn 1 for Brainstorm, and removing one could possibly hurt those chances.

Other discard options include Sadistic Hypnotist and Cao Cao, Lord of Wei (combine with Anger and/or Ranger for sexy time explosion).

I'm not sure if you feel like 5-mana tutored bullets come down fast enough but given a little bit of stall, I'd want to be resolving one of those two.