[Deck] RGB Survival Advantage (current builds)

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Originally Posted by bigbear102

Why? You win the die roll with identical hands and draw 4 FTK's, why would you fear the mirror?

Does this deck stand a chance against Flash? I have been brainstorming changes and can't really get a list that can even get a decent match against the deck. Duress and Therapy are good, but pre-FS the deck has Mystical Tutor AND Brainstorm to beat discard. I haven't found any good answers, even Leylines aren't a good answer because we have no way of protecting them.

Pyrostatic Pillar and Chalice are irrelevant against this deck, as they don't play very many spells to win and go off well before or in response to chalice at 2.

If anybody has any idea on how to tune Survival to beat Flash, or at least even get close to even with it I would appreciate it. My brain if fried from hours of testing and brainstorming on the topic.

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Don't think it's going to happen, at least not without you having to run less creatures. You could go for mesmeric fiend since they can only bounce it but thats kind of blehh. Boarding the extirpates can be helpful also if they are running mystical and worldly, but even if they are running lim dul's and mystical. They mystical, you uncounterable shuffle their deck and get rid of all the mysticals in the deck. It's helpful since they most likely don't have all the combo pieces, but it's still not an amazing solution unless they run worldly and mystical.

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Originally Posted by Awesomator

It's helpful since they most likely don't have all the combo pieces, but it's still not an amazing solution unless they run worldly and mystical.

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It's not just useful against the Mirage tutors. It stops the Kiki-Jiki version cold. The need Protean Hulk in the yard to return with Karmic Guide to get their combo rolling. If you Extirpate Hulk as soon as it goes the yard, it's game. The hard part is keeping it in your hand long enough for it to matter. If the Flash player knows you're playing Extirpate, they'll just wait to go off until they can protect themselves with Duress or Unmask.

I started tuning RGBSA to beat Flash almost immediately, as it's one of my real life decks. As such, I've done a fair amount of testing against various builds in a pretty short span of time. I have not succeeded in making Flash favorable, as doing so pretty much just eats the whole RGBSA concept. I have made it distantly winnable though.

Here are the things I learned pretty quickly, besides that Leyline of the Void rocks:

1. Grim Lavamancer is pretty good maindeck. He sucks with Werebear, but he's a 1-drop that with any luck can be ready to stop the Kiki-Guide combo by turn 2. He's also versatile enough to warrant a couple slots against other decks. I'd never play him in a non-Flash meta, but desperate times call for desperate measure.

2. Extirpate helps. I had already started running Extirpates in place of the Mesmeric Fiends/Loaming Shamans in my close-to-Dave Price's build, mostly because I was tired of losing to Loam Control and the Extirpates were pretty decent with the Duress/Therapy set. You'll win a lot of those turn 2-ish ones here.

3. Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast. Must haves.

4. You can't run Burning Wish and beat Hulk Flash. You need those slots for Leylines and Red Elemental Blasts protecting them.

5. The suicideish Turbo Hulk Flash is just going to destroy this deck if it's not packing Leylines. Turn one Duress often still results in you dying before getting another turn (Which is another reason I hate Hulk Flash)

This might all sound a bit incoherent, which is because I'm drunk. I think in short, however, You want REB's and Leylines but not Extirpates against post-FS Flash, and for the GP you want REB's and Extirpates, and possibly Leylines too despite the fact that it and Extirpate have as much synergy as a frog and a blender.

I might as well post my decklist here also:

//Lands
4 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Mountain

//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Werebear
1 Bone shredder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Orcish Settlers
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Tin street Hooligan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

//Sorceries
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Burning Wish

//Enchantments
4 Survival of the Fittest

Comments?

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

It's not just useful against the Mirage tutors. It stops the Kiki-Jiki version cold. The need Protean Hulk in the yard to return with Karmic Guide to get their combo rolling. If you Extirpate Hulk as soon as it goes the yard, it's game. The hard part is keeping it in your hand long enough for it to matter. If the Flash player knows you're playing Extirpate, they'll just wait to go off until they can protect themselves with Duress or Unmask.

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I have no idea why people will decide to run the kiki build, it's about a hundred times worse.

Less spots for more control basically. Makes the deck way more resilient, but yeah the disciple version is less prone to hate. It is either play straight up fast ass combo or controlish combo.

OK call me crazy but I might make some drastic changes for anti flash.

Main
-3 Wish
+1 Duress
+1 Therapy
+1 Bloodstained Mire (21st land I know)

SB
-5 Wish targets
+5 REB/Pyroblast

My only problem is I have such a good matchup against all the decks that beat Flash. It's like I'm trading in 50% of the field's hate to beat half the field. Myabe I'll just leave it alone and win the whole shabang.

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Originally Posted by Awesomator

I have no idea why people will decide to run the kiki build, it's about a hundred times worse.

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I don't believe the kiki build of Flash is 100 times worse. I agree, you are opened to more hate cards that your opponent can play against you, but with the 5 creatures instead of 11, it allows you to play more protection spells. I believe with the disciple build your main deck is very tight which makes sideboarding very difficult in certain matchups with the deck.

I guess the jury is still out as what version of the deck is better, but I have to learn toward the kiki build at the moment.

if your using vial, you can md 1 goblin skycutter to kill their karmic guide when they fetch feeder and guide, before they go for kiki and a protection creature. this way its imune to e truth and chain of vapor.

Meh, at that point, you might as well play Crypt Creeper and fizzle their Karmic Guide trigger.

I think if you hit the karmic guide with any red dmg, it makes it fizzle. If they gice it protection from red, they can't target it with Kiki jiki anymore. But it doenty matter much anymore it'll be banned, and this deck will go back to being good.

Without Flash, we can return to a more usual RGb build of the deck.

Lately, I've found my matchups against decks like Goblins, Meathooks, and Sligh wanting a little. The biggest problem is that burning away a Birds and/or a Werebear buys a lot of tempo. Survival is already slow, and if your first relevant play is a Baloth on turn four (because your turn one and two plays die fiery deaths), the Baloth is barely even going to stem the bleeding. Threshold adding Goyf over Werebear is actually a real pain, too, making several of our cads much less spectacular against them.

For reference, the list I am playing looks like this. I consider it to be just about the typical (older style) RGbSA list.

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Werebear
3 Eternal Witness
3 Ravenous Baloth
4 Flame Tongue Kavu

1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Rofellos
1 Bone Shredder
1 Genesis
1 Indrik Stomphowler/Tin Street Hooligan (to taste)

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival
4 Burning Wish

4 Wooded Foothills
1 - 2 Windswept Heath / Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
5 Forest (4 if you run 6 fetches)

The SB:
3 Engineered Plague
4 Chalice/Pyrostatic Pillar
Choose from the numerous Wish targets available to fill the rest of the board. Tin Street Hooligan/ Stomphowler can go here also, whichever is not main. Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle are fair here as well.


Most of the deck is pretty solid. However, there are a few cards that are in the deck that have been underwhelming lately, and a few that I think should be added to the deck. Let the heresy begin.

Werebears: One of my favorite cards in the deck. He comes down on turn two after a Duress or Therapy on turn one, taps for mana, and paying 3 for a 4/4 beater is excellent. One of the only mana producers that is great on turn two and on turn 20. HOWEVER....he dies on turn two in a lot of the hard matchups. Mogg Fantastic kills him against Goblins, and every piece of burn possible kills him against decks like Sligh. Even his usefulness in Threshold has greatly decreased with the rise of Goyf. He no longer trades with other Werebears (which is game breaking, because of our superior card advantage), but simply chumps Goyf for a turn.
Cards to be considered in this spot: Sakura Tribe Elder, Wall of Roots.
The problem with both of these is that they do not do anything useful in the late game. However, ensuring four mana on turn three, is a huge boon. Wall of Roots, in particular, can be a 0/5, 0/4, or 0/3 depending on how big of a blocker it needs to be. A 0/5 blocker will make even a Goyf bounce off of it for a while while they dig for an Artifact or Enchantment.

Magus of the Moon: What a bomb. I know he should go into the deck. Is he a 1-of? A 2-of? Do you run two or three more in the sideboard? Hmm.....

Flame Tongue Kavu: A bomb, no denying this. However, there are a few cards competing for his spots. A second Bone Shredder, Warmonger, and Fire Imp are all possibilities here. Bone Shredder kills a couple of things that Kavu misses, but certainly can't replace it. Fire Imp only costs three, which is great, but again cannot replace all of the Kavus. I might cut Kavus down to two or three to add in a Fire Imp and another Bone Shredder.

Goyf: Does he belong? His lack of utility makes me say no. Thought I would mention it though, to answer any questions before they are asked.

Baloth: I might end up swapping some number of Baloths for Spike Feeder. Against Goblins, Spike Feeder kills everything that Baloth kills, gains the same amount of life, and costs one mana less. Against assorted Aggro decks, he does not beat Werebear, Watchwolf, Kird Ape, and a host of other critters with toughness three. For that reason, cutting all of the Baloths is no good, but I am tempted anyways.

Basking Rootwalla: A lot of people love this guy. I am unsure about him personally, but he seems great against a Goblins.

Overall, all of these changes lower the curve of the deck to try and help the early game against fast aggro decks. Lowering the curve could make Aether Vial more viable, but I am very hesitant to add more non creatures to the list.

The other concern I have about all of those changes is the reduction in the deck's ability to end the game. Turning Werebear into Walls cuts 4 4/4s, Baloth into Spike Feeder removes a few more 4/4s, and FTK into Bone Shredder removes 4/2s for...uh....a Lava Dart. Pretty terrible.

I think the only change I will make now is the Werebears into Walls of Roots, but I am not even sold on that change. What are other people's thoughts on this? Is it time to shift the deck towards some of the more...different builds here, or are there simple changes that can make a difference here? On the other hand, the deck has posted some great results as it is, so perhaps I just need to learn how to draw better? I've been playing the deck for a long time, but lately it has felt very slow.

The only thing I don't like about that build is if you loose the die roll to Goblins, your only answer to turn one Lackey is Birds. I guess if you go first you have more options, but that's why I made room for Rootwalla.

As far as Warmonger goes, he is a little steep. Goblin Sharpshooter is one less to cast, but has a 1 butt. I am prolly going to fool around with this old card that I forget the name of. It's a 1/1 for R, with: R, sac: do one dmg to all creatures without flying. I'll have to dig it out do get the name and exact wording.

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Originally Posted by Mulletus

It's a 1/1 for R, with: R, sac: do one dmg to all creatures without flying. I'll have to dig it out do get the name and exact wording.

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This post is gunna lack some content, but:

Bloodfire Dwarf, R.
Creature- Dwarf
1/1
R, Sacrifice Bloodfire Dwarf: Bloodfire Dwarf deals 1 damage to each creature without flying.

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Magus of the Moon: What a bomb. I know he should go into the deck. Is he a 1-of? A 2-of? Do you run two or three more in the sideboard? Hmm.....

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I've been testing this guy he's amazing at slowing down decks that have a lot of non-basics. I would run one main deck and one sideboard. He's even handy when getting haste with anger at times.

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Flame Tongue Kavu: A bomb, no denying this. However, there are a few cards competing for his spots. A second Bone Shredder, Warmonger, and Fire Imp are all possibilities here. Bone Shredder kills a couple of things that Kavu misses, but certainly can't replace it. Fire Imp only costs three, which is great, but again cannot replace all of the Kavus. I might cut Kavus down to two or three to add in a Fire Imp and another Bone Shredder.

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FTK is amazing in survival. I would recommend running all FTK's. You could run one bone shredder if silver knight/soltari priest is a problem. Fire imp and warmonger aren't worth putting into this slot.

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Goyf: Does he belong? His lack of utility makes me say no. Thought I would mention it though, to answer any questions before they are asked.

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No

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Baloth: I might end up swapping some number of Baloths for Spike Feeder. Against Goblins, Spike Feeder kills everything that Baloth kills, gains the same amount of life, and costs one mana less. Against assorted Aggro decks, he does not beat Werebear, Watchwolf, Kird Ape, and a host of other critters with toughness three. For that reason, cutting all of the Baloths is no good, but I am tempted anyways.

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I run 3 baloths and one spike feeder in my build. Spike feeder can turn the tide in a burn matchup.

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Basking Rootwalla: A lot of people love this guy. I am unsure about him personally, but he seems great against a Goblins.

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I dont run these. They are good but aren't worth the slots. If you are having problems with gobins run WOB or WoR

Yup, I know Goyf doesn't belong, but I thought I would mention it in case anyone else was wondering about it.

The lack of answers to a turn one lackey on the draw is a serious problem. Specifically, Birds block and die (if they don't get Fanatic'd or Incinerated), and that leaves Burning Wish for Pyroclasm. On the draw I look for a BWish against Goblins, especially game one when they do not know what they are playing against.

Kavu has always been a bomb, but lately his utility in several key matchups has gone sharply down. He no longer eats a Werebear for breakfast and then keeps Nimble Mongeese from attacking against Thresh, because of Goyf. They are easily able to get Instants, Sorceries, and Land, and with Survival, we are throwing creatures in the yard pretty quickly. Against Goblins, there are no creatures that FTK kills that a Fire Imp doesn't. I already run one Bone Shredder. I am leaving all four FTKs in the list for now, but I am looking for something else to run alongside them to deal with cards like Goyf. Maybe one Duplicant, like in the good old days?

Goblin Sharpshooter is great. Bloodfire Dwarf sounds worth testing too. Warmonger is not as good as either of those, but I saw someone else mention it this week and thought it was worth looking into.

I haven't done enough testing against Thresh with Goyfs in it to have firm matchup percentages, but Goyf certainly helps them out.

The Tarmogoyf does indeed help them out a lot. Flametongue is no longer what it used to be against them. Often times when I play against Threshold, I only have a few outs against them in the form of Bone Shredder, Rootwalla gang block, or a Gigapede. It's pretty much impossible to resolve without Therapy backup. Nimble Mongoose are less of a problem with Basking Rootwalla. In testing, Rootwallas helped out a lot. They double as a win condition or hold down the fort once Survival is in play and you need a little bit more time to go critical. Even without Survival, the Rootwallas can buy some time. The MD removal cards I use are: 2 Bone Shredder, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter. Flametongue Kavu was just too slow of a removal spell for my taste and often didn't have anything relevant to target. This is one of the reasons I have so few removal spells; They're too slow to be relevant. I'm probably not going to draw any of them without Survival in play anyway. Shredder also eat almost everything in the format except for Dark Confidant and Hypnotic Specter. With Kavu gone, my mana base seemed more stable as I was able to focus on a higher concentration of black.

However, I've fallen in love with the singleton Sharpshooter. It can take down x/1 by itself and with the help of a Wall of Roots with 4 counters or Scryb Ranger it can take out x/2 as well.

On a side note, I'm not too sure on the inclusion of the Ranger. It can potentially make mana with a BoP in play but the instant speed save Taiga or Bayou has really come in handy. Its also the HOUSE against Sea Stompy. It single handedly shuts down their deck. It's pretty funny.

For what it's worth, I've taken to running Sandstorm in sideboard. Solves Goblin Lackey and crazy fast Empty the Warrens assaults.

Has anyone tried any of the following cards in their Survival builds?

Heartwood Storyteller ~ Could potentially be good in a deck with 20+ creatures

Stingscourger ~ The whole Pro-Red thing still applies but its cheap and bounces big ass guys and buys you some time

Gorrilla Shaman ~ I've liked it to some extent against combo or aggro control deck. Aggro Control decks bring in Engineered Explosives, Jitte, Vial, and Pithing Needles. Against combo, it eats Lotus Blossoms, LED, and Chrome Mox. Hurray for Mox Monkey! It's a one trick pony but it could hurts if you pull it off. Game three you can hit an uber powered Therapy if they hold back.

Thornscape Battlemage ~ a 4 cc spell much like FtK but the damage comes from a green source and can hit pro red Creatures. RGw Survival builds pretty much suffer from the same weakness as RGSA but being able to pay the white kicker off a BoP or something can come in really handy. Say bye bye to annoying equipment and running multiples of them can thwart Pithing Needles if anyone is having problems with them.

Fortune Thief ~ Beats me. Could it be useful?

Any ideas people?

The shaman is tech, I'll give ya that.. I have ran in in my previous side boards (I like shaman in the MD artifact hate slot myself)... the story teller is cute but not necessary, as for the fortune teller.

I think the fortune teller is next to useless (can be morphed, but that usually means it will just attract disruption).

heartwood is also cute, but also unnecessary to the deck overall. For combo in my side board, I use druid... basically ensures they'll burn for at least 8.

the battlemage can be interesting against AS.... Soryy I cannot give any good advice as to any 'jank' we could run, but I just play the classic ATS build... works pretty well whenever I use it.