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This thread should be less about bitching and more about proving the format-warpingness-icity of Hulk Flash. By tracking the effects of this pesky :u: :1: mana instant, we can do this.
If Cisco doesn't update the first post, I do not object to a Mod doing so.
It was legal in type 1.5 for years. It did nothing broken. Comparatively speaking, it's not overpowered. It's very good, but not broken when compared with the rest of the card pool. For the most part I agree with your other assessments.Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
Yay Slivers!! See guys? You can play Aether Vial in slivers and win. The card is an absolute counterspell magnet.Quote:
Originally Posted by revenge_inc
I don't know if you're counting results from over at Magic-League as valid...if you do, the results from the last two Legacy Trials are:
May 06 - Legacy WITH FS, 49 players, single Elimination. Flash hate was everywhere. Relevant decktypes:
14 Flash (fast Disciple version)
1 Flash (slow Kiki version)
11 Fish / Threshold / Gro
2 Countersliver
1 Homebrew
1 Dragon Stompy
1 Faerie Stompy
4 Goblins
2 Iggy Pop
1 Belcher
The four top decks were
UWr Fish
Flash (slow Kiki version)
Gro
UWb Fish
May 15 - Legacy WITHOUT FS, 43 players, single Elimination. Relevant decks:
1 slow UB Flash (actually, four Flash decks were being played, but three of them played Pacts despite the tourney being non-FS, and thus didn't get very far)
16 Fish / Threshold / Gro
3 Countersliver
1 Homebrew
1 Faerie Stompy
3 Burn
2 Goblins
2 Stompy / Sligh
1 Gifts Rock
1 Survival
1 BR Control
1 White Stax
2 Belcher
1 Transreliquat-Time Vault-combo
1 Iggy Pop
1 Reanimator
1 Aluren
The four top decks were
UW Fish
Belcher
Transreliquat-Time Vault-combo
Burn
Id like to point out a few things that may be getting overlooked.
1. You want to play in a format with nearly every card legal than eventually someone will find a busted combo. get used to it it will happen again and again
2. Just because your current legacy deck cant beat flash doesnt mean flash is the most powerfull and unfair deck ever. If you played some form of control deck than you see flash as another easy matchup barring silly luck
3. Every one has to keep in mind the power and amount of goblins decks in the format but no one is crying that wizard should ban mountains? There are decks that deal with certain strategies well and those that do not. SB's exist to accomodate this RockPaperScissors aspect of magic.
4. Final Point. Sure Future sight might add some cards that make HulkFlash better but it also helps other decks. Llorwyn will add cards that help someone's archtype out I'm sure. Maybe you would prefer it if wizards stopped making new cards and let the game stagnate, that way your deck will always be vialble as is and you as a player can while away the years confidant that nothing will rock your boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
I do expect to see the Top 8 of the GP very similar to this. There will be a lot of Gro and Fish decks that do well just because of the number of Flash decks. I do also expect to see CRET Belcher somewhere near the top 8, because the deck is still very good.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a Goblins deck in the Top 16, but I wouldn't expect it with all the Flash decks that it will probably have to face through the 14 rounds of magic.
I think the GP Trials the day before will be a pretty good indication on the number of Flash and hate decks that you will see at the GP.
Jason, I feel like you're missing a large portion of the discussion. While in general, most of your points are true, there are some issues you're overlooking as well.
While we should welcome broken combos with open arms in a format where every set is legal, part of the governing body's job is to decide which combos are at a higher power level than the rest of the format, and take action on them. This is something most expect on June first. In the mean time, we have a metagame that approaches a binary aspect - the broken deck, and decks that beat it. That isn't exactly a healthy format. Understand that less than three weeks ago, this format was probably the most open format in history. That's quite a change in very limited time.Quote:
1. You want to play in a format with nearly every card legal than eventually someone will find a busted combo. get used to it it will happen again and again
Until the point where Flash hit the scene, pure control was a rather underpowered archetype. Having to choose Flash or Control is a very hard pill to swallow for many players who were quite happy playing their favorite aggro deck. While you and I look at it from a "it doesnt matter what deck you're playing, play what wins" perspective, we aren't in the majority in that view when it comes to this format. having entire archetypes invalidated by this deck is not why people choose to play this format.Quote:
2. Just because your current legacy deck cant beat flash doesnt mean flash is the most powerfull and unfair deck ever. If you played some form of control deck than you see flash as another easy matchup barring silly luck
Very recently, people were actively attempting to get cards in Goblins banned. We had similar threads about whether or not Goblin Lackey was warping the format. Those conversations died off, but in this deck we've seen a new imminent threat to the format, and people are justifiably concerned.Quote:
3. Every one has to keep in mind the power and amount of goblins decks in the format but no one is crying that wizard should ban mountains? There are decks that deal with certain strategies well and those that do not. SB's exist to accomodate this RockPaperScissors aspect of magic.
What Future Sight offers the deck is open for debate. I happen to believe the deck is better without the "I lose" cards than with them, but that's me. The thing is, anything past this weekend is basically irrelevant, as we've been sprung onto a new and overpowered deck two weeks before the (potentially) largest Legacy event in history. Months of testing and planning was thrown out the window as suddenly, formerly tier 1 decks are invalidated. People are upset about it, and I think they have every reason to speak out about it, regardless of whether that accomplishes anything in the short term or not.Quote:
4. Final Point. Sure Future sight might add some cards that make HulkFlash better but it also helps other decks. Llorwyn will add cards that help someone's archtype out I'm sure. Maybe you would prefer it if wizards stopped making new cards and let the game stagnate, that way your deck will always be vialble as is and you as a player can while away the years confidant that nothing will rock your boat.
Need it be reminded that WotC removed the errata on Flash, creating the busted combo? If players work long and hard to create a busted combo, or a busted deck even, that's what players do. In this case, Wizards spoon fed one to you, one that orignally had an errata to keep it in check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos_Wuryon
What Mr. Nightmare said. I don't know if others saw it, but I saw a variety of new decks popping up on several forums, probably in anticipation of a pre-Flash metagame at the GP. Hulk Flash not only kills most of these, but many other established decks. These aren't jank pet decks that are being struck down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos_Wuryon
Goblins wasn't capable of winning on turn one. Sure, it could have some pretty good starts, but it wasn't something that extensively warped the format to the same extent. Goblins to a pre-Hulk Flash metagame is not the of equivilant Hulk-Flash to the new metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos_Wuryon
I think this is going overboard a little bit. This isn't some newly printed card we are talking about. Yes, Hulk is new...sort of. On it's own, it doesn't break the format down the middle. When Flash got its errata removed, there was a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos_Wuryon
I agree with what you both have to say but I feel the issue with this deck is, at its core, the frustration over 1. the sheer number of netdeckers running to be on this bandwagon and 2. the fact that the deck allows weaker players to overcome better ones. The card and deck are not the most broken thing in existance because there are cards in all colors(save green) that can counter act the deck. Like most things once the netdeckers all struggle and fail they will move on to something else. In a month we could be debating that Leyline of the void should go becuase it makes reanimator and flash not viable. Also while you look at your format with fear of doom realize that this, like any other adversity is really an opportunity to dominate the lesser players. You know they will play flash, you know they will play flash hate, take advantage. I have seen no less than 6-8 innovations amongst just syracuse players both for and against flash. The better players are being given a good leg up on the field because you know what to prepare for. If you play flash build your version to ignore Leyline. PLaying flash hate, do the same. I agree that the ability of the deck to win on t0 or t1 is problematic but if that happens more than 2 games against you all day than your just unlucky. If the thought was that 80% of the field was playing vial goblins you would be licking your lips just waiting to smash them all day long because your deck has the edge. Why is this any different. ( Ps. sorry about the lengthy replies, Im knot on enough to keep it shorter. )
I'm not sure you have a full understanding of what it means when people say things like "broken" or "healthy meta-game".Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos_Wuryon
It really doesn't matter if you can build a deck to crush the 80% of the field playing Goblins. The question remains;
Why is 80% of the field playing Goblins?
Any deck or card can be hated, but the existence of the Banned List testifies that the DCI doesn't want formats to be dominated by a single card/deck and the answers to that card/deck.
Also, please, you can go over old(ie, the past week) threads where the "points" you think people are over-looking have been gone over to death.
Also also, I haven't seen anyone post the GPT Rockville results. Maybe I'm missing it. It wasn't that bit but the t8 was 5 Flash-Hulk and 32 FoWs.
Now where could those GPT Rockville Results be? I wonder if they're in the thread called "GPT Results"?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
The remaining decks outside the Top 8 at Rockville were:
1 Burn
1 Faerie Stompy
1 Angel Stax
1 B/W budget Deadguy
3 Kiki Flash
1 Disciple Flash
But, yes. 9 out of 16 Flash. 5 out of Top 8 Flash. 32 Forces in the Top 8.
8 Wastelands, and Zero Mountains in the Top 8.
Luckily though, Flash hasn't warped the metagame.
Well, the solution seems obvious. Ban Force of Will.
Yes. Let's ban FoW and give Hulk Flash even more room to maneuver. Say, if the T8 decks start showing large numbers of Stifles, counters, discard, Meddling Mage, and other assorted anti-Hulk Flash cards, let's ban all of those too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
I'm gonna bet he was being facetious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabal_chan
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2217/clappingni8.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Har de har har. Generally you need a hard tutor, or multiple gains and tendrils with igg. Yawgwin generates so much more mana you can afford to chain brainstorms and so forth in a way igg doesn't, not to mention tossing that leyline crap (and considering we're looking at obscene cards individually, flash would not exist.)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Yes. I was trying to point out how ridiculous the idea of banning hate cards was. I will use sarcasm tags like kombat from MtgSal does next time to avoid any possible confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Well I have to admit I was wrong. I am always opinionated, usually correct and sometimes blazingly, stupidly wrong. This is one of those times.
I stand by my points that flash poses an issue to many gamers for reasons other that its ability to warp the format and that is a gamer issue not a magic issue.
However, the ability to win a game with one instant, is out of control. After seeing the deck in action at the GP Ive come to conceade these points.
1. Flash combo is too good to be allowed to run rampant.
2. The hate that exists, while good, requires so much work to have a chance of being effective you have to ruin your SB and deck build to use it properly. This creates an unhealthy deck building environ.
3. The cards that hate out the combo are not guaranteed hosers. Leyline can be bounced, extract/extirpate can be wished back into hand.
4. By loading the hate you create a situation where you are no longer playing to win just playing not to lose. The flash players deck is built to win, through hate and therefore has the advantage regardless of what you bring to the table.
5. Finally, every thing the flash deck does is essentially a must deal with situation for you. every tutor, duress, land fetch all potentially cost you the game while very little you do matters to them
AI in no uncertain terms admit that the combo, and the resulting build is too good to be allowed to live and must be banned. Only banning flash will do.
Look, I don't know how to break this to you, but...we're gonna have to ban you. You're not actually allowed to change your mind, ever. Sorry, you just don't fit in here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos_Wuryon