[Deck] Armageddon Stax

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Have people considered replacing the Armagedons with Cataclysm or Catastrophe in order to have more control over the opponent's board position? Armagedon seems like such a win more card sometimes, while Cataclysm and Catastrophe are full on reset buttons.

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Catastrophe is strictly worse than other options. Wrath is cheaper if you wanted a creature sweeper and Armageddon is obviously cheaper as a land sweeper. Catastrophe gives you the choice, yes, but it is overcosted at WW4. I would look at Akroma's Vengeance if I wanted a 'full on reset button' since it can also cycle when it is unplayable or the recently discussed Nevinyrral's Disk which can sac to Smokestack while protecting your position. Neither 'reset buttons' are necessary as far as I can tell.

Cataclysm has no synergy with this deck in my opinion. Armageddon can be played aggressively while Cataclysm is almost solely a reactionary (or 'catch-up') card. The times when you can play it for an advantage are too narrow making it a weaker selection when compared to Armageddon.

Armageddon may seem like 'win-more' but that is because of how strong it really is, not that it is unecessary in the deck. Just look back to Machinus' original post for all the 'mini-combos' with Armageddon in the deck. None of them could be duplicated with Cataclysm or Catastrophe (unless you are destroying all lands).

Fred Bear...

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Armagedon seems like such a win more card sometimes.

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You are confusing "win-more" with just "win." Those are really different things.

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Originally Posted by Machinus

You are confusing "win-more" with just "win." Those are really different things.

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QFT!
Btw maybe it should be added that you can play 2 Armageddon and 2 Ravages of War if you are afraid of Meddling Mage. Or better yet 4 Ravages because nobody knows this card.

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Originally Posted by Machinus

You are confusing "win-more" with just "win." Those are really different things.

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Armageddon is a bomb in this deck. Saying this card as win-more doesnt make sense because you win once it resolves.

Maybe I'm just dumb but I have a hard time seeing the difference between this deck and AngelStax. Except the missing Tangle Wires which are almost timewalks.

Time to run my mouth..

First my current sb..
3 Duskrider Peregrine
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Defense Grid
1 Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale
2 Glowrider
2 Tangle Wire

Concerning black attrition matchups-

Duskrider Peregrine is the bomb like Silverdragon and I said. Remain doubtfull till you try him. Im in love with this bird now. Rather than making black decks fight through more lock pieces and walls you make them need an answer to something that will kill them, something believe it or not, they arent prepared for. Negator is a huge problem but Ive been bringing in both Jotun Grunt and the Duskrider against them to block him and to kill my opponents while their pants are down. Alot of Red Death and Homebrew players will sb out their Red removal or StP's. If they dont you still have CotV. I also find Tangle Wire to be of use since all R/B and W/B's spells are generally sorcery.

Concerning Landstill-

This is indeed a difficult matchup. I have problems most specifically with U/B lists such as Duckhunt or other black versions such as BHWC. The major contenders in their decks are Crucible of the Worlds and Standstill. Stacks has a tough time with anyone recurring anything each turn, (Nether Spirit, Life from the Loam, Crucible, Squee) especially if that resource is lands since it rebuilds them from Geddon and Taxing effects.

Black versions have two huge bombos against you. Pernicious Deed and Haunting Echoes. For these reasons Truffle Shuffle is also an unfavorable matchup.

Im still researching solutions to this but again Jotun Grunt seems to be a fine tool when combined with Defense Grid. You need the quick clock before they can rebuild and bury you in card advantage. Neither help against deed but Grunt can remove lands from under their crucible and take Gigapede from Truffle Shuffle.

Glowrider and Tangle Wire can both come in against Landstill as well since they also sb out spot removal such as Smother and StP. Tangle Wire is perfect against control decks and compliments both their shortage of permanants and your own Defense Grids.

Concerning Goblins-

Im also quite comfortable with my goblin matchup with the current maindeck. I think some of the people playing without the Mishras Factories are missing out on this matchup. Wastelands are nice to compliment Ghostly Prison and Magus but both are more than effective enough on their own till you Geddon and win. Factory helps block early beats, most importantly Goblin Lackey.

I never sb out Chalice against them since it still shuts down Vials, they're best card against you. Whether or not you go first to cast it you still have Engineered Explosives to nuke it away.

Concerning Thresh- Im quite sure their matchup is more favorable with the Tarmagoyf. He can be huge for them since you have Enchantments and Artifacts to counter. Magus needs to maintain enough toughness to block him or you need recurring Factories to chump him till Smokestack takes the game. Thankfully versions running Counterbalance sucks against you since your mana curves are completely different but it can be an issue if they can colaberate Top+Balance+Enforcer. Something Ive only encountered once.

To adjust I sb in the copies of Defense Grid and Jotun Grunts. Tangle Wire is actually better than Ghostly Prison here as well. Engineered Explosives is huge in this matchup since it takes out that evasive Mongoose they start with. I usually dont worry about him much and drop Magus under CotV however. This is probably the only matchup Ive been missing the Exalted for. The ability to end the game quick under CotV was great but Jotun Grunt kills just as easily for cheaper.

Concerning Combo-
I add Glowrider to help against all forms of combo. He's an additional clock which can be needed against Solidarity without the angel. Jotun Grunt also comes in against them. It fits the same role Rule of Law does avoiding Rebuild but it actually kills them at some point and makes Cunning Wish cost 4. Something Rule of Law doesnt do.
Tabernacle comes in against red combo decks for Empty the Warrens.

Concerning Windborn Muse-
This card has already been brought up several times but the shared opinion is he is too fragile without the CotV@1 to sustain his life. Ghostly Prisons enchantment awesomeness hurt aggro stategies since so few are capable of removing enchantments. Creatures however..

Concerning the Man Plan-
I think Ive gone over this well enough above but the option to swap into aggro stack with Duskrider and Grunt is something most of you should test out and take advantage of. It shores up the loss of angel but applies actual game state disruption at the same time.

Concerning Geddon-
Its simply way better than Catastrophe and Cataclysm is antisynergistic with your decks mission. If you have Ravages of War Id do a 2/2 split to avoid the mage issues.

Concerning Null Rod-
I think the fact it messes with your mox, factories, and explosives is good enough reason not to mess with it. There are simply other options that remain one sided. I feel the same about Suppression Field. The card could stunt the opponents development but not quite enough and the longer the games draw out the weaker its effect would get. Paying 2 to fetch a land would be ok. Paying 2 to Vial out a Warcheif is still way too good. IMO Explosives helps fill the Suppression Field role but actually reduces the perms in play and allows you to drop the all mighty CotV@2.

Concerning Leonin Abunas/Karmic Justice-

I did try this guy at some point before I decided to foresake the "Cover your Ass" plan. Its simply not worth it to remain reactive. Even Karmic Justice is a card that DOES NOTHING. No really. Cards that only 'turn on' when your opponent does a certain something are usually bad. The only instance I can think to argue that is Standstill because it 'turns on' when the opponent plays any spell, not one that will blow up Crucible.

In short, being proactive lockdeck > being a reactive control deck.

Concerning mana denial-
I like the tax effect of Ghostly Prison and Magus but both are effective enough on their own to stand alone. Rishadin Port and Wasteland can be too weak on their own and often only become too much of a good thing when coupled with the geddons. The current state of denial seems strongest.

Concerning Crystal Vein-
I've been testing alot with the Crystal Veins and all I can say is the amount of times they save your ass by bumbing you ahead a mana far outnumber the times you'll wish it was a Wasteland/Port.

Theres another long drawn out post for a long drawn out deck.

I've been keeping up with this thread and really like the deck concept. I created my own little spin on it by splashing blue, and to a lesser extent green. It's probably horrible, but I thought it was a rather interesting idea:

W/U/g Stax Ungiven

Lands (22)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Creatures (7)
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Windborn Muse

Spells (31)
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)
4 Glowrider
4 Defense Grid
1 Powder Keg
1 Ensaring Bridge
1 Tangle Wire
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Jester's Cap
1 Maze of Ith

For more info: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=6069

Hi,

I see you have finally adopted armageddon. Next step: drop smokestack. I played the following list with great succes. I won a local tournament (1,5 years ago) of 54 players. I must say I encountered no pikula and landstill but: sensei sensei, nausea storm, ugr threshold, ur fish, ug madness and rw aggro - all of which got eaten alive by this deck (2-0, 1 time 2-1 though because of a playing error on my account).

Against combo the addition of rule of law makes it near impossible to win for them. Against goblins that card is Sphere of Law. I must admit Empty the Warrens didn't exist yet back then.

The reason I play this list is because I very thoroughly tested it (also inlcuding sideboard). I find that without card advantage consistency has to be maxed, and you dan do that only by playing a lot of 4-ofs. It also provides maximum synergy.

The manabase has proven to be the most optimal for this deck. I almost never get manascrewed (unless against pikula). 14 white mana sources is a must to generate WW for angel and wrath.

The only decks I have trouble with are Landstill and Pikula. Landstill is winnable, defense grid helps a lot. But against Pikula I'm a big underdog. Light of Day is only a crying call... I will test Duskrider Peregrine, though I tested something faster like Nightwind Glider. Only problem is you have to draw it.

I consistenly win (+75%) against somewhat all the rest of the decks. I could elaborate on details as to why, and which MU's are slightly better others but the testing has happened 1,5 year ago and more so I don't rememebr all of it. Roughly it was best to worst: Rifter, Threshold, all combo (Burn, IGGy, Solidarity mostly), random aggro, Goblins, Fish, Pox --gap-- Faerie Stompy, Survival (lots of mana critters) --gap-- landstill (disks) --big gap-- Pikula (almost unwinnable). The gaps indicate descents in winning percentage.

The list is more than a year old, and I have only recently icluded the flagstones because of their synergy. You absolutely don't want to draw 2 of them I noticed, so only 2. Drawing land isn't bad in this deck, especially since i agressively use armageddon. Often I win because I simply have more land in my deck than the opponent. This is also the reason I win without smokestack.

I haven't tested Magus of the Tabernacle but at first sight Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is strictly better:
-It is al land, so discards to mox.
-It costs 0 instead of 4.
-1 tax effect is enough, you want to drop it (or recur with crucible) after an armageddon.
-It doens't have to pay upkeep to itself.
-It doesn't die to Wrath of God.

Damping Matrix substitutes needles (which don't work together with chalice) and are MD answer to:
Goblins: Siege-Gang, Sharpshooter, Kiki-Jiki, Fanatic and most importantly Aether Vial
Fish: Lavamancer, Jitte, Sensei's Top
Madness: Aquamoebe, Wild Mongrel
...allready enough reasons to realize this is a bomb. If you don't, test it yourself.

4 Angels is a must. Turbo-Angel mode has won me a good enough deal of matches to justify 4. And when the first one gets plowed, it's nice to replace her when you got the chalice/3sphere set up.

4 Mishra's are too, as they work well against aggro and speed up your clock.

4 Wastelands keeps people off color. Against white Threshold it keeps meddling mages and swords away, ...

All right, this is my list:

//NAME: Exageddon

4 Wrath of God
4 Armageddon
4 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Damping Matrix
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Mox Diamond
2 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains
4 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

// Sideboard

3 Light of Day
4 Rule of Law
3 Sphere of Law
4 Defense Grid
1 Trinisphere

is this a joke? Here's a hint, Magus of the Tabernacle survives armageddon, doesn't die to wasteland, doesn't really die to *ANYTHING* vs goblins, and doesnt cost 60 bucks.

Damping Matrix + Factory is not tech.

Drop smokestack = lol, armageddon is a huge bomb, but smokestack is what locks the game away.

Ditch the wraths and get with the program.

try it yourself.

you don't need smokestack to win when you got armageddon, it's as simple as that. it wins in vintage, but it comes hopelessly late in legacy.

as i said i haven't tested magus yet. i'd replace the 4 WoG with him, but 2 pendrell en 4 WoG have worked out great against gobo's, especially after sideboard. I don't say magus is bad, i just say pendrell vale is better, but i will try it. the list is made before PC came out.

damping matrix doens't interfere with the creature-making ability of factory, since it's a LAND. you cant tap it to pump itself that's true, but the matrix disrupts the opponent a lot more than it does you. gotta know when to drop it.

so, before you give any theoretical "proof" of why this doesn't work,

try it and test it.

Personally I prefer Suppression Field over Damping Matrix because with 4 Moxen, 4 Flagstones and 8 Plains it is just as fast and as easy to cast as Damping Matrix but protects your own lands from opposing Ports and Wastelands too in addition to hosing Fetchlands. With 4 Factories and 4 Wastelands maindeck Damping Matrix is of course the better maindeck choice however I was always satisfied with boarding in Fields in the matchups where they are relevant.
Correct me if I'm wrong but lately "Staxless Stax" was far more successful than traditional Stax in Vintage. It is true Smokestack is slow as hell but that is far more relevant in Vintage than in Legacy.
I've cut down to 3 Smokestack in my list because the format has sped up however Smokestack has still uses because it gives you outs against almost all the randomness you may face in this format and acts as additional boardsweeper sometimes. The downside of playing with Smokestack is that your deck needs a high permanent count to further break the symetry of the card.
Were I to cut the Smokestacks completely I'd retool the deck to include more lands (preferably Wastelands or Ghost Quarter) and carddrawing spells turning it into some kind of UW control (Landstill *ahem*).
Without either Smokestack or some form of carddrawing this deck gets far too dependant on topdecking. All the lockpieces in this deck serve as a way to accumulate virtual cardadvantage, Smokestack is simply the one lockpiece that guarantees actual cardadvantage.
Btw Nightwind Glider is a fine choice if you can reach 3 mana however I still prefer Peregrine because aside from only needing 1W to suspend it is also big enough to kill Rotting Giants and Wretched Anurids and doesn't die to a single Cursed Scroll.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milan_Dunaldy

Hi,

I see you have finally adopted armageddon. Next step: drop smokestack. I played the following list with great succes. I won a local tournament (1,5 years ago) of 54 players. I must say I encountered no pikula and landstill but: sensei sensei, nausea storm, ugr threshold, ur fish, ug madness and rw aggro - all of which got eaten alive by this deck (2-0, 1 time 2-1 though because of a playing error on my account).

Against combo the addition of rule of law makes it near impossible to win for them. Against goblins that card is Sphere of Law. I must admit Empty the Warrens didn't exist yet back then.

The reason I play this list is because I very thoroughly tested it (also inlcuding sideboard). I find that without card advantage consistency has to be maxed, and you dan do that only by playing a lot of 4-ofs. It also provides maximum synergy.

The manabase has proven to be the most optimal for this deck. I almost never get manascrewed (unless against pikula). 14 white mana sources is a must to generate WW for angel and wrath.

The only decks I have trouble with are Landstill and Pikula. Landstill is winnable, defense grid helps a lot. But against Pikula I'm a big underdog. Light of Day is only a crying call... I will test Duskrider Peregrine, though I tested something faster like Nightwind Glider. Only problem is you have to draw it.

I consistenly win (+75%) against somewhat all the rest of the decks. I could elaborate on details as to why, and which MU's are slightly better others but the testing has happened 1,5 year ago and more so I don't rememebr all of it. Roughly it was best to worst: Rifter, Threshold, all combo (Burn, IGGy, Solidarity mostly), random aggro, Goblins, Fish, Pox --gap-- Faerie Stompy, Survival (lots of mana critters) --gap-- landstill (disks) --big gap-- Pikula (almost unwinnable). The gaps indicate descents in winning percentage.

The list is more than a year old, and I have only recently icluded the flagstones because of their synergy. You absolutely don't want to draw 2 of them I noticed, so only 2. Drawing land isn't bad in this deck, especially since i agressively use armageddon. Often I win because I simply have more land in my deck than the opponent. This is also the reason I win without smokestack.

I haven't tested Magus of the Tabernacle but at first sight Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is strictly better:
-It is al land, so discards to mox.
-It costs 0 instead of 4.
-1 tax effect is enough, you want to drop it (or recur with crucible) after an armageddon.
-It doens't have to pay upkeep to itself.
-It doesn't die to Wrath of God.

Damping Matrix substitutes needles (which don't work together with chalice) and are MD answer to:
Goblins: Siege-Gang, Sharpshooter, Kiki-Jiki, Fanatic and most importantly Aether Vial
Fish: Lavamancer, Jitte, Sensei's Top
Madness: Aquamoebe, Wild Mongrel
...allready enough reasons to realize this is a bomb. If you don't, test it yourself.

4 Angels is a must. Turbo-Angel mode has won me a good enough deal of matches to justify 4. And when the first one gets plowed, it's nice to replace her when you got the chalice/3sphere set up.

4 Mishra's are too, as they work well against aggro and speed up your clock.

4 Wastelands keeps people off color. Against white Threshold it keeps meddling mages and swords away, ...

All right, this is my list:

//NAME: Exageddon

4 Wrath of God
4 Armageddon
4 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Damping Matrix
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Mox Diamond
2 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains
4 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

// Sideboard

3 Light of Day
4 Rule of Law
3 Sphere of Law
4 Defense Grid
1 Trinisphere

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I hate when people like you bust onto the source and claim to be the endless well of knowledge concerning a deck we've been developing for years.

It's fine that this is the built you prefer but its terribly out dated and has some development flaws concerning the mana curve.

One at a time...

1) Play four Ancient Tomb. It doesnt matter that it deals damage to you, the deal is too great. City of Traitors is much more a problem as a 4 of since you'll have a greater chance of drawing multiple.

2) Play four Flagstones. Your legendary problem isnt even a problem. Thinning two lands out of a deck with no card draw is tech. Its only gonna cost you -1 mana for the turn since the newer copy will die and replace itself with a tapped land. The card is far too good with Armageddon and Smokestack to not abuse at its full four copies.

4) Dont play Wrath of God. The best creatures in the format are now 1/1's that come into play in droves on turns 1-2. Casting WoG against Empty the Warrens is having delusions of granduer. Casting WoG against Goblins is an uphill battle against their copies of Wasteland and Port. I havent missed this card since I replaced it with Magus.

5) Play 3-4 Magus. Hes amazing against Empty the Warrens even if he's 4 mana depending on your manabase. Notice Machinus has a base concentrating on a high number of 2 colorless mana producing lands. He's got huge chances to drop him turns 2-3. He completely crushes goblins if he resolves. He's far to large to gemplam out and kills anything in combat. 2 Magus out at once are a complete auto win which is good reason to play 4.

It really doesnt matter what your win condition is in this deck as long as its there. If you can lock the game well enough with Crucible + Stack or CotVx2-3, you just need to play draw go till you find Magus or Factories. Angel is under performing in the deck.

6) Try Peregrine out. His body and flying make a big impact on the matchup. The fact that you can Suspend him early and easily keeps him safe from Hippy and Hymn's.

7) Play Smokestack. There's no arguement you can actually give to cut it. Theres no reason your deck is better without it. It might be slow in some matchups but its not meant to come into play turns 1-2. Your suppose to apply lock then finalize with it.

I've been playing the crap outa this deck lately. It's awesome. This is the best version of Stax I've played in Legacy thus far. The only problem I've had is with Engineered Explosives. That guy sucks hard in this deck. And is even worse with a Trinisphere out. I'm playing Machinus' list with Powder Keg instead of EE and have been really happy with it. Being able to take down double Tarmogoyf or WoG Goblins board at 3 is really good.

Keg and Explosives are really similar cards that differ just in a few situations. I don't consider it a major change to run one over the other since the metagames in this format are so diverse that one could easily be better than the other depending on your environment.

I have tested more than four geddons and I am finding that I don't really want that many. I want to set up, cast it once, and then exploit that advantage until I win the game. Having really good setup cards means geddon wins the game when it resolves, but sometimes you don't need it. Also, relying too much on the armageddon means you are in trouble if it gets countered. The threat of the lock needs to be shared between multiple components, across costs and card types.

I tested this deck a little and i found that Magus dies a little too often for me. 6 toughness help, but double bolt and sword to plowshare are an occurrance that i find too often. Without Magus the deck have essentialy no out, as it dies to creature. Maybe we should play also other good anti-aggro creature? A card between Masticore (regeneration and strong ping ability, plus with crucible the discard clause is someway offset), Windborn Muse (useful against Warren Combo, General aggro deck, but very weak against removal) or Exalted Angel (high toughness, strong ability + evasion, High mana cost and double colored). Or maybe a win condition that's not a creature (nothing pop to my mind right now, except Barren Glory :/ )

Windborn Muse dies to single bolt, Magus lives to single bolt. All of the creatures cept core die to stp or double bolt. Magus is just to essential to this deck to pass up.

If you're worried about STP and Bolt, then play a chalice at 1

Yea Chalice should come down before Magus in matchups with StP. Unless you really need to run him out there. Getting a 2 for 1 if they double bolt him at least saved you 6 life and you should be running 3 more anyways.

Goblins has to get six creatures in play to kill Magus with incinerator, or five plus Mogg Fanatic. Or, have Siege-Gang in play and untap with six mana.

It's a lot less powerful against Threshold, but it's not a key card in that matchup anyway. Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere already wrecks their draw engine (cantrips) and removal (stp, needle).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Machinus

Goblins has to get six creatures in play to kill Magus with incinerator, or five plus Mogg Fanatic. Or, have Siege-Gang in play and untap with six mana.

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This is probably a good point to mention Ive never ever had goblins remove a Magus from play. Come to think of it, I cant think of a game I've lost against them after dropping him.

Question from the combo bleachers,

If a combo deck isn't using Empty the Warrens, can you actually SB out all of your anti-Empty the Warrens cards for anti-combo cards? I figure you can at least SB out Ghostly Prison for Glowrider, Magus of the Tabernacle and Windborn Muse can remain because of their clock, but are those Engineered Explosives just being exchanged for another clock?

The deck does look like a Belcher/TES combo killing machine, I got whacked by it pretty hard on MWS.

Edit: Also, I think Fetchlands/Dual Lands are worth it even if the second color isn't adding much to the MD/SB, because being able to set Engineered Explosives on 2 is clutch against aggro-control. Green has some good stuff for the SB to, Choke and Root Maze are awesome against aggro-control.