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I think the triple-red in Kiki-Jiki's casting cost makes it pretty hard to get into play sometimes, and that alone makes me hesitant to run it.
The question is: is it just an "I win more" card, or does it genuinely help any of the deck's bad matchups?
Yes, kiki-jiki would be absolutely perfect if it costed up to 5r !!!!
but its cost is 2rrr and this means a big NO to its inclusion (provided you want to keep the deck competitive and green over red)...
Anyway, in my testing, apart from its obvious and powerful use with hermit, baloth and sharpshooter, i found its best use in combo with rofellos and wirewood symbiote (don't you have included this little insect yet?).
Kiki+Rofellos+Symbiote+(at least 2 forests) = win!
[tap Rofellos for gg, tap kiki and clone the symbiote, then use symbiote's ability to bouce rofellos and untap kiki, then play Rofellos again ad repeat - next time use another symbiote-clone's ability, and so on... then attack with 100000 symbiotes]
Too bad 3 red mana :(
I've been using Kiki-Jiki with some slight modifications, and I think it's a great card, and one that should definitely have a place in the deck. It looks like a win more card when you first see it in the list, but once you play with it, it really breaks games open. WIth 4 Taigas and adding a mountain or two, along with 4 Birds of Paradise (which can be Survivaled for), casting Kiki isn't really that big of a chore, and Rofellos is still pretty effective in my build. I haven't had any problems with it yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kundalini
I have been playing a proxied up list of ATS for over a month, and I have several proposed modifications to RGSA. These will not work if Wasteland sees a ton of play in your metagame; however, they shore up some of the decks weaknesses, accelerate the deck, and make the sideboard more flexible.
First of all, running only one Rofellos has proven to be...slow. Before anyone flips out, try running four Rofellos. The best play this deck has is not turn two Survival, it is turn two Rofellos. Turn two Rofellos leads to casting Survival and having four mana floating on Turn Three. That is enough to find Anger, Squee, Genesis; find and cast Zealot; find and cast Troll; or cast a Ravenous Baloth or FlameTongue Kavu from hand. That is butt-kicking power. Also, the argument that drawing a second Rofellos is a dead draw is never true, because Survival turns Rofellos into Deranged Hermit, FTK, Baloth, or whatever is needed. The previous Rofellos ensures that you have the mana to do this.
Rofellos does much the same job as Llanowar Elf, except that it is much more efficient. Turn two Rofellos makes turn one elf seem much less impressive, and leaves you with one mana wasted turn two (Birds, at best?). There is a better one drop that improves your chances of turn two Rofellos and turn three Survival: Brainstorm. Now hold on, wait for a minute. Splashing blue also strengthens the sideboard with options such as Annul for Belcher and Scepter-Chant, Stifle for Storm Based Combo, Wonder for....well, coolness, or more fun options if you feel like goofing off (I'll get to those.)
Adding Blue means we need Tropical Islands and more fetch lands. Fetch lands also make our Brainstorms better, so that works for us. Brainstorm does as good a job at finding land as Yavimaya Elder, so he can go.
I do not know about anyone else, but I will often find myself in a situation where I need to get rid of an Exalted Angel, or a Scepter, or a key artifact. Doing this game one greatly improves our odds of winning. Blue also supports this: Trade Wind Rider. Wow. He is amazing at what he does, often proving better then Duplicant or FTK. Running at least one mainboard is a golden idea.
Now, it would appear that these changes make the deck more controlling. However, the deck already plays the control game until it randomly wins, and we are just improving out early game with Brainstorm. TWR for Duplicant is simple.
Here is a decklist incorporating these changes:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Rofellos, mana dude
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Flame Tongue Kavu
3 Eternal Witness
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Shivan Wurm
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Trade Wind Rider
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Genesis
(No Spore Frog- when is he needed? Get the Rider to bounce it, Blast is away with FTK or the Core....etc.)
1 Masticore
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 (split Zealot to Lyrist/Monkey, 4th Baloth, Wonder, 2nd TWR, land 22, Wood Elg, Kiki-Jiki, Avalanch Riders, etc. Fill with Metagame tech!)
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
3-4 Windswept Heath, to preference
5-6 Forest
(21 total lands)
SideBoard:
3 Naturalize
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Annul
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 more slots-obviously all these slots are depending on metagame
Other SB Options:
Wonder, Stifle, Artifact Mutation, REB, BEB, Duplicant, Caller of the Claw, FEB Transformational Sideboard
No, Seriously. Boarding in 4 Shapeshifter, 1 Phage, 1 Hypnox, 1 Akroma for FTKs, Sharpshooter, Masticore, and Baloths or Trolls or whatever you feel like gives you a much better chance against a deck like Storm Based Combo. Turn One Birds; Turn two Brainstorm, Rofellos; Turn Three Survival, find Hypnox, cast Shapeshifter for their hand kills Storm. Doing that turn for without the Birds is also devastating to their plan. This also works against unprepared opponents that do not expect FEB. Really, though, this plan is just if you face faster aggro or combo. Combo will win long before you deal lethal damage, but turn three or four will catch them by surprise, especially after they smash you game one. FEB is too slow and inconsistant to be the focus of the deck, but against combo, especially decks that laugh at Annull or Naturalize (Competant players will probably see the blue splash sb coming and keep in Xantid Swarm), eating their hand on turn 3 is the best plan. However, I realize that this is more of a fun suggestion. Do not let it detract from the seriousness of the rest of the post.
The Forth Baloth is key against very aggresive decks and burn. Wonder can be used to smash an Exalted Angel, punch through WW's Silver Knights, or fly over randomness.
I feel that the changes to the deck offer it much that it was missing. Opponents will not expect blue spells from RGSA, so Stifle and Annull will have the surprise benefit. Trade Wind Rider really helps mainboard. Brainstorm improves consistancy, speeding up the early turns by helping ensure land drops, Rofellos, and Survival drops.
Playing the full four Rofellos is the best change, however. Whatever the land base of your metagame looks like, I STRONGLY suggest running a full set of them. The acceleration they provide makes them a much better play turn two then Survival. They are also cards that control must counter, upping the count of must counters significantly. Resolving a turn two Rofellos means really hard times for Control, so they have to counter it. But is the Rofellos just bait for the real threat? Can we rist it not being bait? No, control opponents know they must counter Rofellos.
Try these changes. Wasteland is the biggest threat at this point, because the land base is much less resilient then it was. The deck also feels land light; I advocate running the 22nd land in the mainboard slot and only running 3 Heaths for an extra forest. Without the Elders, we lose some of the tutoring ability for land; however, Brainstorm does a similar job without the beating body, but for a third the cost. It does not survival, but it draws creatures that do.
Test these changes before commenting. Four Rofellos will probably draw the most flak, but it is the strongest change I advocate. All of these suggestions have been tested extensively in ATS, and have carried their weight for the other strongest survival deck in the format. Tradewind Rider and Brainstorm make blue a solid addition, and they make the sideboard much stronger against the deck's weakest matchup, combo. The sideboard options alone make the blue splash a very strong choice in a Wasteland-light metagame.
I think adding the blue would make this deck lose some of its strenghts:
A great mana base,good against blood moon and wastland.
Also,making the deck more control wouldn't do it good,since this deck is Aggro,making it hybrid Control-Aggro would make it directly inferior to ATS.
I do like the 4 Rofellos-idea,since I always feel like I wasted a turn by playing survival and not being able to do anything else.
I agree with Zirilian. RGSA is strong because it is not easily disruptable, adding another color makes it just that.
Also, I was wondering if there was a way to add a sacrifice mechanism into the deck, or the SB. Being able to sacrifice Duplicant/FTK/witness, and then using genesis and getting their CiP ability again seems good. Playing the deck I usually want to be able to sac my duplicant to something, especially against Angel Stompy .
Maybe running kiki could help with cip effects.
My list does too,and it works great.
Kiki is real handy when you and your opponent both have a full board,by recurring Duplicant/FTK/witness.
I disagree with the entire "adding blue" nonsense. This deck is running great at two colors, I don't see why you would need to fumble around adding a third one. The deck is so strong as it is, it needs no changing as far as adding/removing colors.
I dislike the 4 Rofellos idea. I know Rofellos is great for the deck, but you would have to cut valuable utility cards to make room for cards that are basically dead draws late game. One Rofellos works fine for me, he isn't even as integral to the deck as you may think.
I'm not to keen on adding blue, but I do like having multiple Rofellos. Rofellos is almost always a better play turn 2 than a survival is and it enables the deck to do what it needs to do. 3 might be the right number.
As for Brainstorm, If thats the only thing thats going to change md than just run a few Sylvan Library. The Library is great in this deck. Me and a friend have been running 2 for a while, It works great, speeds up the deck, and makes it that much better w/o Survival. Try that instead of Brainstorm.
I think running 3 rofellos would help the deck out a lot.Quote:
I dislike the 4 Rofellos idea. I know Rofellos is great for the deck, but you would have to cut valuable utility cards to make room for cards that are basically dead draws late game. One Rofellos works fine for me, he isn't even as integral to the deck as you may think.
4,however,is too much imo.
Rofellos is definitly a huge help to the deck. He is an incredible early game play and getting his added mana boost after a board sweeping effect is really your best chance at getting a smooth recovery. That being said, the idea of playing four seems way too over the top. If Rofellos is killed, which most good players with the means to neutralize the little guy will, then you still have three Eternal Witness to get him back as well as Genisis. Granted getting him swords'd early is rough, so I could see adding a second, back up one to the deck. So to conclude, I feel that the Rofellos count should not exceed two, I personally feel comfortable with one, but would support someone's choice to replace a single copy of one of the other four ofs in the deck with an additional Rofellos. If someone is to add Rofellos what card would be cut? I would lean towards cutting a single Llanowar Elf or Troll Ascetic.
-Bargoth
I would like to start by saying that I am very pleased with people posting their ideas. For example I had not previously thought about going infinite with Kiki-Jiki. I like to hear new ideas. Here are my opinions on the recent suggestions.
I don't really know where people get this from. The deck is not an aggro deck. I repeat the deck is NOT an aggro deck. It is defiantly aggro-control. Almost every match it plays, it plays the control deck. Against aggro decks like sligh/goblins it is the control. Against aggro control decks like madness and some white weenie decks, it is the control deck. Against other survival decks (even ATS) it is the control (actually both decks are control in that match up, it is just whoever controls faster. If either tried to go aggro they would lose). Against combo decks it plays more aggro control, trying to delay the combo while applying some beats. Against control decks it is probably the most aggro but it often makes the control deck go aggro-control, with aggressive factory and fairy beat downs before I can resolve a game breaking spell. I have even occasionally played the control deck against control, trying to get some Baloths out to handle their factories.Quote:
Also,making the deck more control wouldn't do it good,since this deck is Aggro,making it hybrid Control-Aggro would make it directly inferior to ATS.
Even though this deck is aggro control does not make it "directly inferior" to ATS. This deck is designed to operate much better without a survival and thus runs many more redundant answers to keep aggro decks down than does ATS. And because the creatures that are used to control many decks also have large power, it can apply better beats than ATS normally can if it wanted to.
Kiki-Jiki:Quote:
Kiki+Rofellos+Symbiote+(at least 2 forests) = win!
[tap Rofellos for gg, tap kiki and clone the symbiote, then use symbiote's ability to bouce rofellos and untap kiki, then play Rofellos again ad repeat - next time use another symbiote-clone's ability, and so on... then attack with 100000 symbiotes]
He is a 5 casting cost guy that can be handled by just about any sort of removal (even lava dart can kill him). He is slow, being at the very top of the mana curve. He doesn't do anything by himself. He seems too slow to be useful against aggro and too vulnerable to be useful against control. The control player could easily counter him or just kill him, or keep other creatures off the table. Against control Kiki-Jiki also makes you play other creatures and over extending into a board sweeper. He also costs three red, which could defiantly be a problem for this deck unless the mana base is made more red heavy, which it really does not want. It seems more like a "win more" in general. In order to go infinite you basically need a survival out for a couple of turns, and then you probably will win anyways.
Just on a side note, you don't need Rofellos to be the elf in that combo, Llanowar elves work just as well. Also the combo could be done with sharpshooter, Kiki-Jiki and Seeker of Skybreak. The seeker seems a little bit better than the insect in general.
Blue splash:Quote:
4 Brainstorm
1 Trade Wind Rider
Wonder
Stifle
BEB
FEB Transformational Sideboard
I am not really a fan of the blue splash. The biggest advocating for this seems to be brainstorm. I agree with bigredmeanie that Sylvan Library would be a better option than brainstorm, especially since you don't need the color splash for it. Tradewind Rider is not normally needed; you generally have better answers than that, such as FTK or Zealot. One of the main reasons Tradewind and brainstorm are used in ATS is for blue cards to pitch to force. Counters would probably be the strongest thing from blue to add but I do not feel that they add nearly enough to the deck to make it worth while. And wonder is only really useful against decks with heavy fliers, but most of these decks, if you resolve a survival you can probably handle the flier anyways with FTK’s, or spore frog or even recurring bird blocking. And the FEB SB, the Kiki-Jiki one would be better because it is more in the colors, 2 blue is just too much.
4x Rofellos:Quote:
First of all, running only one Rofellos has proven to be...slow. Before anyone flips out, try running four Rofellos. The best play this deck has is not turn two Survival, it is turn two Rofellos. Turn two Rofellos leads to casting Survival and having four mana floating on Turn Three. That is enough to find Anger, Squee, Genesis; find and cast Zealot; find and cast Troll; or cast a Ravenous Baloth or FlameTongue Kavu from hand. That is butt-kicking power. Also, the argument that drawing a second Rofellos is a dead draw is never true, because Survival turns Rofellos into Deranged Hermit, FTK, Baloth, or whatever is needed. The previous Rofellos ensures that you have the mana to do this.
Rofellos does much the same job as Llanowar Elf, except that it is much more efficient. Turn two Rofellos makes turn one elf seem much less impressive
Sure Rofellos is amazing at what he does. But that is the catch; he is amazing at what he does, and not at what he doesn't do. It may seem nice to have consistent second turn Rofellos, but if you analyze it you can see how this is actually inferior. Rofellos does produce a lot of mana, but that is essentially all he does. Now survival of the Fittest is a very mana intensive card, so Rofellos works great with it. But without a survival, Rofellos does not really add much. You can't use him till turn three at the earliest. A turn one Llanowar elf can usually have you able to cast almost any card in your deck by turn three too! Making Rofellos not very much better there. Also a turn one Llanowar elf gives you three mana on turn two to cast a troll or elder for blockers or turn two survival (before counter mana or hymn mana comes online).
Now the scenario you gave with a turn two Rofellos followed by a turn three survival would make Rofellos look much more powerful there, and that it would make the Llanowar elf "seem much less impressive" but I submit to you that a turn one elf would make the turn two Rofellos seem much less impressive. In your scenario you say that you can go turn two Rofellos then turn three survival with enough mana left over to cast FTK/Baloth/setup/find and cast zealot. But with the first turn Llanowar elf you can do more! You can cast survival on the second turn. Then you can SEARCH AND CAST FTK or Baloth, you don't even need them in your hand. You can search and cast AND ACTIVATE the zealot, something you couldn't so with a Rofellos. Probably the most common thing I do is end of second turn get anger. Third turn pitch anger get Rofellos, cast Rofellos, tap Rofellos for three then either play a hasted 4cc guy or search for a 3 casting cost guy and play him hasted. With your second turn Rofellos you would have 1 less mana to work with for the third turn which makes a huge difference. Also you would have less mana for future turns. So by looking at the scenarios you see that you actually get more mana use out of the turn one elf than the turn two Rofellos because it costs less and you have more turns to use it. It will often mean the difference between life and death, being able to tutor and play that third turn FTK or tutor and play and activate the 3rd turn zealot; something that the Rofellos on turn two simply cannot do.
It is also much easier to keep a one land hand if you have a Llanowar elf instead of a Rofellos. So in summary of Rofellos, he is inferior to a Llanowar elf until you get the survival out, and then you can tutor for him, making more than one copy fairly useless.
Edited By quicksilver on 1110686632
I'm having trouble with our matchup against solidarity.
I can't seem to win this matchup,does anyone have some ideas about how to defeat it?
2 Geas Blessing's in the side. If that's not enough Pyrostatc Piller kicks them in the junk.
You could also try the black splash against solidarity. The duresses and cabal therapies slow them down enough for you to kill them. Choke is also fairly strong against them, becuase it doesn't allow them to set up their hand, makeing them take longer to go off.
So what's up with Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard. Have any of you tried Night Soil from Fallen Empires? It is great in the mirror match, and against reanimator. It lasts longer than Crypt and it gives you little green men. It's what you're all about. :blues:
Against Solidarity you shoul really run one SB Dosan. He really makes that match easier. Resolving that bad boy takes out their resets and gives you the opportunity to stabilize.
I like the idea of night soil over crypt. I will definitly try that one. The only reason crypt was there was because it is free casting and is a headache first turn play against teh reanimator.
Has anybody considered putting Sakura in the main in place of the elders? IMO Sakura is a much better play because he is faster, requires no mana to activate, and helps fetch those basics against the wasteland. Plus he has mad synergy with Genesis.
Just a thought.
I always thought Night Soil was better than Crypt against ATS/other Survival.
And yes, Dosan is good against Solidarity. Lack of Reset does hurt them a lot, cutting them to only 4 untap effects. Along with that, Solidarity likes to go off right before they die, and often against R/G there's no telling when that will happen. I've gone from no attackers to Baloth+Hermit+Wurm many times in a single turn for a lethal attack. With Dosan, Solidarity won't have the safety of waiting until the last second to go off.
Choke is decent, and Pyrostatic Pillar is a complete bitch for them, though Solidarity is pretty much the only deck Pillar would go in for, so if you aren't comfortable with dedicating 3-4 SB slots to a single deck, then meh.
I have a few cards that I'd like to bring up and have you guys comment on. Here they are:
Crater Hellion - wipes out weenies, goblins, and (almost) angels, then sticks around to lay down a beating. I've used it a fair bit. The double red is not usually a big problem.
Avalanche Riders - wouldn't a recurring rider (using genesis of course) be devestating, or is it too slow?
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - this guy is pretty good, especially with Goblin Sharpshooter to destroy opponents lands. He also pumps all your little guys for a devastating attack.
Seedborn Muse - untaps Sharpshooters, and means you can attack with all your guys and have them untapped to block during your opponents turn (duh).
Goblin Bombardment - a great defense against Swords to Plowshares; just sac your guy in response. Too bad it's an enchantment and not a creature.
Bloodshot Cyclops - could also protect a valuable guy from Swords to Plowshares. Is it a bit expensive for just that, or is his 4/4 body worth it?
Living Wish - this would help against Swords to Plowshares, and let us leave our utility in our sideboards. Is there room for this? Is it too slow, even though we have mana acceleration?
I was splashing black in this deck, and found that Carrion Feeder was very useful. It protects your creatures from Swords to Plowshares, and gives you a sac outlet for untapping Sharpshooter. This was a very useful trick for Angel Stompy and such. I would like to know what people think about the idea of black for Carrion Feeder, as I found it to be quite useful.
Thanks everyone.
I'll come back to Crater Hellion.
Avalanche Riders is a bit slow and it is win-more. There's no reason why you need to destroy your opponents land with this deck.
Kamahl is really slow and win-more. There's no reason you need him, and I'm sure whatever you take out to add him in is a lot more useful.
Muse could be a good choice, but I don't think R/G needs her. ATS only uses her to double the amount of permanents bounced with Tradewind.
Bombardment isn't a creature. You said it. Saving creatures from StP isn't that big of a deal, because you can still destroy any deck I know of that runs StP when you don't have Rofellos.
Bloodshot Cyclops seems a little random to me. If you can play him, you don't need to save any more creatures from StP because you should already be in position to win the game.
Living Wish I'm sure has already been mentioned in this thread, and it is a waste of a card in the maindeck. Just replace any slots in the main where you are planning on running Living Wish with the best creatures you would ever use it to wish for, and you'll be a lot more happy.
Carrion Feeder doesn't sound bad. If you're splashing black, I guess he could be a good choice, but make sure you include some other things that were mentioned by quicksilver when he was splashing black. Destabilizing your mana base just to add one more creature is not a good idea.
As for Crater Hellion, this brings me to another creature I was thinking about. Crater Hellion would destroy every creature you control when he comes into play, and this is not a good thing in the slightest. My choice would be Tornado Elemental and to run him in the sideboard. The only creatures of yours he would hit are Birds, which you probably don't need at that point. He wipes out Angel instantly, and wipes out all of Madness's creatures instantly. Many, many games I have played against a Madness that gets double/triple Wurm on me along with some other creatures before I have the mana to kill them with Silklash Spider and they use their counters and Submerge to keep my board position very poor. Almost every game I have lost to Madness would have been a win if I had been running Tornado Elemental (excluding the games they won on like 5th-6th turn without me seeing Survival).